[dbo]

The TP52s are bloody fast boats. But what are they like on IRC? Patches seemed to do very well in Cowes Week. Anyone got the mail?

[Jackovator]

Not too shabby BBS San Fran either dbo - even though it was IRC tickled for the event. Look it up!

[wraith]

Did well at Cowes - but not in TP52 mode - different keel position, and different sails - at least

[Marko]

stiff, fast, undistorted, lots of sail area, no runners, no inefficient 155% headsails, course they do well.

very well sailed and lots of new rags too which probably helps dontchknow.

[grenberger]

I remember Jason Ker commenting that a stock TP52 would not be a great performer under IRC, but Patches proves that with IRC keel and sailplan that it can be done, albeit with a semi-rockstar crew.

Well worth investing in the IRC keel and sails for extra versatility that it gives I'd say!

[Right Coast]

The only IRC race that we've done on Sjambok was Annapolis-Newport and we took 1st in class and 1st in IRC Fleet, so no complaints yet.

[GybeSet®]

dbo, on Oct 5 2005, 08:37 PM, said:

The TP52s are bloody fast boats. But what are they like on IRC? Patches seemed to do very well in Cowes Week. Anyone got the mail?

answered your own question didden yuh?

bear in mind slight re-config

[Right Coast]

grenberger, on Oct 5 2005, 07:27 AM, said:

I remember Jason Ker commenting that a stock TP52 would not be a great performer under IRC, but Patches proves that with IRC keel and sailplan that it can be done, albeit with a semi-rockstar crew.

Well worth investing in the IRC keel and sails for extra versatility that it gives I'd say!

Does anyone have any specifics on what was different for Patches' IRC configuration? I'm curious to see how much or how little they changed the boat for their IRC optimization.

[Spyder]

does it make sense to pick up an old TP 52 on the cheap to optimise for IRC?

[wraith]

Right Coast, on Oct 5 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

grenberger, on Oct 5 2005, 07:27 AM, said:

I remember Jason Ker commenting that a stock TP52 would not be a great performer under IRC, but Patches proves that with IRC keel and sailplan that it can be done, albeit with a semi-rockstar crew.

Well worth investing in the IRC keel and sails for extra versatility that it gives I'd say!

Does anyone have any specifics on what was different for Patches' IRC configuration? I'm curious to see how much or how little they changed the boat for their IRC optimization.

All I saw was to raise bulb on fin, install internal ballast, and put class legal sails aboard.

[GybeSet®]

then in effect it was slowed up to regain class compliance !!

( p.s. I do realise the tenderising would help in LW)

[Right Coast]

wraith, on Oct 5 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

Right Coast, on Oct 5 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

grenberger, on Oct 5 2005, 07:27 AM, said:

I remember Jason Ker commenting that a stock TP52 would not be a great performer under IRC, but Patches proves that with IRC keel and sailplan that it can be done, albeit with a semi-rockstar crew.

Well worth investing in the IRC keel and sails for extra versatility that it gives I'd say!

Does anyone have any specifics on what was different for Patches' IRC configuration? I'm curious to see how much or how little they changed the boat for their IRC optimization.

All I saw was to raise bulb on fin, install internal ballast, and put class legal sails aboard.

Just to confirm: Was this to fit her into the TP52 box or to IRC optimize her?

[fan]

As I understand it they do well under IRC because IRC does not rate a boats ability to plane. Looking inot one right now. I too would be curious what Patches did to optimize for IRC.

[wraith]

Right Coast, on Oct 5 2005, 02:48 PM, said:

wraith, on Oct 5 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

Right Coast, on Oct 5 2005, 01:47 PM, said:

grenberger, on Oct 5 2005, 07:27 AM, said:

I remember Jason Ker commenting that a stock TP52 would not be a great performer under IRC, but Patches proves that with IRC keel and sailplan that it can be done, albeit with a semi-rockstar crew.

Well worth investing in the IRC keel and sails for extra versatility that it gives I'd say!

Does anyone have any specifics on what was different for Patches' IRC configuration? I'm curious to see how much or how little they changed the boat for their IRC optimization.

All I saw was to raise bulb on fin, install internal ballast, and put class legal sails aboard.

Just to confirm: Was this to fit her into the TP52 box or to IRC optimize her?

bulb up, internal ballast :> FROM Irc to TP52

The sails - I dont know the specifics - but I'd be guessing bigger headsails, and maybe fatter head main?

[_DB]

wraith, on Oct 5 2005, 05:33 AM, said:

All I saw was to raise bulb on fin, install internal ballast, and put class legal sails aboard.

I thought internal ballast wasn't a benefit in IRC? Is IRC now moving toward IMS and IOR and now boats need internal ballast to be competitive? If the TP52 needs to be heavier for IRC, why not use a bigger bulb since stability isn't measured?

[Two Tone]

What Wraith is saying is

To go from IRC to TP52 Class legal...

Raise the bulb (reduce draft) - change bulb weight (guess by changing bulb or removing some weight somewhere inside the bulb)
Add internal ballast to match displacement (guess here, might be lighter or heavier in TP trim- haven't looked at her certificate or class rules)
Add class legal sails (which def. have a smaller jib, not sure about main and kites)

I think this is what he is saying...

[Right Coast]

Two Tone, on Oct 5 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

What Wraith is saying is

To go from IRC to TP52 Class legal...

Raise the bulb (reduce draft) - change bulb weight (guess by changing bulb or removing some weight somewhere inside the bulb)
Add internal ballast to match displacement (guess here, might be lighter or heavier in TP trim- haven't looked at her certificate or class rules)
Add class legal sails (which def. have a smaller jib, not sure about main and kites)

I think this is what he is saying...

Which makes sense. The 52s are pretty stiff boats but it seems that IRC likes stiff boats, so why not make it stiffer. They put a deeper keel on for IRC, one that extended beyond the bottom of the TP52 box. As for the weight added that would be to get them between the 16,500 and 17,000lb, and it was added as internal ballast to get them into the TP52 range for vertical center of gravity.

[laser71180]

right coast:
obviously you are deeply involved in the tp52 class. so you seem to be the man to answer 2 questions. there are currently 32 boats listed on the class-homepage, that are either sailing or will be sailing next year as a class-legal tp 52.

1. i would like to know how many (former) tp 52 exist, that are not listed on your homepage - class-legal or not. (i have seen pics of a canting-keel-tp 52). maybe with some info (boatname/designer/year/what happened to them - irc, canting keel.....)

2. what are the differences/evolution between the 4(?) generations. only thing i know is that the first boats were offshore orientated, the later were more allround-orientated + med-optimization for euro-boats. more info?

thanks

[Right Coast]

laser71180, on Oct 5 2005, 05:24 PM, said:

right coast:
obviously you are deeply involved in the tp52 class. so you seem to be the man to answer 2 questions. there are currently 32 boats listed on the class-homepage, that are either sailing or will be sailing next year as a class-legal tp 52.

1. i would like to know how many (former) tp 52 exist, that are not listed on your homepage - class-legal or not. (i have seen pics of a canting-keel-tp 52). maybe with some info (boatname/designer/year/what happened to them - irc, canting keel.....) 

2. what are the differences/evolution between the 4(?) generations. only thing i know is that the first boats were offshore orientated, the later were more allround-orientated +  med-optimization for euro-boats.  more info?

thanks

#1 is easy to answer- The only boat to be modified out of the box is Victoria 5, with the addition of the canting keel. Two other boats have at times been incorrectly referred to as TP52s, Pendragon, a Davidson 52 served as inspiration for the box rule, and Margaritaville claimed to be a conversion to a TP52. Neither boat has been measured in to the class.

#2 is a little harder to answer- Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a designer, nor do I claim to have any great insight in to the design philosophies of the various boats. I appologize for any inaccuracies, as I have just come home from a few cocktails at Middleton's and I am pulling all of this off the top of my head (or from some other part of my body)

There are basically 4 generations to the TP52 class:

Generation 1, the founders of the class. J-Bird (Flash), Alta Vita (Lightwave), Victoria V (no longer a TP52), Yassou, and Rosebud. These boats were designed when the Transpac was the focus of the class, and before there was some tightening of the rule. While the changes to the box rule yielded a better rule they may have left some of these designs at a disadvantage.

Rosebud, by far, has been the most aggressive out of this group when it comes to learning the boat. They have undertaken an extensive program with regard to foil and sail developement. There is an article in this month's Sailing World that discusses this in greater detail. Rosebud's efforts have payed off, as this early design has remained competitive.

Generation 2- A smaller group basically just Beau Geste, a 2002 Farr design. This boat was optimized for the downwind conditions of the Transpac. As a result of this I believe she still holds the unofficial TP52 speed record at 34kts in the 2003 Coastal Cup. With some foil modifications Beau Geste was moved in to a better all around performance mode for BBS 2004 and finished 2nd in that event.

Generation 3- The class of 2004. Braveheart, sisterships Esmeralda(Bambakou), Bright Star and Sjambok, as well as Trader. These boats were designed after the tightening of the box rule, at time when the focus of the class was was shifting to a mix of buoys and offshore. As a result, the Farr sisterships were designed as all around performers. They are strong on a beat and very powerful on a reach, but they give a little up on a breezy run to a design like Rosebud. Unfortunately I have not seen much analysis of Braveheart and Trader has yet to show her potential.

Generation 4- The Med Fleet. These boats vary as much as Generations 1 through 3. Some designs are optimized for the lighter air of the Med, while others are more all around performers.

There have been a couple articles on the Med fleet boats as well as comments from owners and crew, and they all seem to say that no one design is going to walk away with things. And, that the differences in crew work and tactics more than offset any advantage a boat may have by sailing in "her" conditions. Another key factor has been the sail developement programs, for example after their first event Quantum/Lexus went back to the drawing board and showed a dramatic gain in downwind speed, enough so, to bring her up to 2nd overall for the series.

How the different designs stack up in all types of breezes and on all points of sail remains to be seen. I think that this winter's events in Florida will shed some light on the topic. By spring 2006 ther will be at least 32 TP52s worldwide. As always, there are more programs on the fence and others, yet unannounced, with plans already in motion. I do not think it is unrealistic to see the class grow to over 40 boats by the end of 2006.

[laser71180]

thanks a lot!

"There is an article in this month's Sailing World that discusses this in greater detail. Rosebud's efforts have payed off, as this early design has remained competitive."

no chance to get "sailing world" where i live. would like to read the article - anybody out there with a scanner willing to help? maybe via pm when you are worried because of copyright?

[Potter]

Two Tone, on Oct 5 2005, 08:40 AM, said:

What Wraith is saying is

To go from IRC to TP52 Class legal...

Raise the bulb (reduce draft) - change bulb weight (guess by changing bulb or removing some weight somewhere inside the bulb)
Add internal ballast to match displacement (guess here, might be lighter or heavier in TP trim- haven't looked at her certificate or class rules)
Add class legal sails (which def. have a smaller jib, not sure about main and kites)

I think this is what he is saying...

Pretty much spot on. To go from IRC to TP mode they put in 600kg of internal ballast, removed 100mm of fin length (which wasin lead) so reduced bulb weight, and reduced sail area.
PAtches is now back in IRC mode for the middle sea Race.

All the new TPs need internal ballast to get in to box rule, supposedly one of the reasons is to keep them competitive for longer

[Two Tone]

Potter,

Did you do this, or were you just skulking around when it occured ;)

You going to Malta? Had a possible ride but fell through?

You going to be Soton around the middle to end of Dec? My B'day and its a big one... Or you going to be lazing it up in the Carib?

[Platty]

laser71180, on Oct 5 2005, 09:41 PM, said:

"There is an article in this month's Sailing World that discusses this in greater detail. Rosebud's efforts have payed off, as this early design has remained competitive."

no chance to get "sailing world" where i live. would like to read the article - anybody out there with a scanner willing to help? maybe via pm when you are worried because of copyright?

Hi,

also struggling to get a hard copy of this article in Sydney (Aust). Would really appreciate a scan if anyone can do this (PM or public) - or better still, tips from a local on who might stock the US "Sailing World".

Thanks