[Chris 249]

Guest, on Mar 24 2004, 04:55 PM, said:

Hay us from the US don't even know what an RS is?

Is it one of those many non-olympic boats your Brits insist on sailing so as to dilute your sailing in the isalnd of yours?

I once heard of Ford making RS's are these the same things, i remember the Escort beign a bute! Small car though!!

Someone from the US talking about the UK's Olympic sailing being diluted????

Ummm, did you see the country that topped the sailing in the last Olympics???? And, it must be said, without the benefit of being host nation, as the USA and Spain had when they dominated in the Games!!

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

I wish we (US) had their (UK) diluted dinghy scene. Every beer piss of a pond in that country has like a 40 boat dinghy fleet sailing there. It's awesome.
RS make nice boats.

[Presuming Ed]

Guest, on Mar 24 2004, 05:21 PM, said:

The UKR or SWE don't exactly have a big dinghy seen but look at what they can do.

Imagine if the Brits just sailed Olympic Classes like they do?
With your numbers you would have been walking the Olympics for the last 30 years.

Thing is, an Olympic campaign isn't for everybody. Not only do you have to be a shit-hot sailor, but you also need the very high levels of dedication required to do the training.

There may well be sailors out there who are sufficiently shit hot. However, if they're not considering Olympic campaigns, then perhaps it's because they understand that its not for them?

I would doubt very much that there are people here who are considering Olympic campaigns but in some way have been waylaid into a non-olympic boat. The route-map to the Olympics is pretty much understood - sail the relevant class, perform at the worlds/international regattas, get some funding, get better, get more funding etc.

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

If they had synchronized lipstick lesbian synchronized sex at the olympics, EVERYONE would be interested.

[Haggis]

Gimp and Freddy ever thought a Brit was pulling your leg and you fell for it hook line and sinker?

Didn't do last Guest post though, not mine

[aA]

Quote

I wish we (US) had their (UK) diluted dinghy scene. Every beer piss of a pond in that country has like a 40 boat dinghy fleet sailing there. It's awesome.

i agree dave. here on the west coast throughout the 70’s and 80’s you had lots of diversified dinghy action happening (‘balls, contenders, 5ohs, 14’s, fj’s, thistle’s, snipe’s, lighting’s, 420’s, banshee’s, laser’s, ic’s…the list goes on). unfortunately, i fear my kids will never get to experience what I did as a young’un growing up sailing dinghies. at that time, costs were not considered “over the top” and fleets were big and strong. somewhere along the line, things went to hell, and now there isn’t even a dinghy racing association (here in norcal). why? well without going into a personal rant about a mile long, lets just say my belief is cost vs. participation vs. lifespan/resale value, imho. as costs have gone up, life spans on dinghies have seemed to decrease, and participation and good competition has followed this downward spiral.

it would seem, from what I’ve read, that the UK has pretty much figured it out. solidly built boats, good nationally organized junior program, funding, and coaching, “stepping stone” classes for advancement, relatively low costs, and lots of pro and older sailors involvement. from what I have heard, RS boats are a little heavy and overbuilt, but if I understand correctly, its for the very reason of stabilizing participation and longevity within the class. if this is true, it sure goes a long way in proving that their way works. maybe it’s time for our nation and our class builders to follow their example. take a look and listen to the 5oh guys here on SA and how proud they are of the fact that a 20 year old waterrat is still very competitive. whats not appealing about a large world wide class, with great competition, and boats that last (and are still fast) for 20+ years (about $1k a year for pure boat cost, minus sails, upgrades, and regatta expenses)…wouldn’t that be ideal for every class? problem is, there are too few classes like the 5o5 here.

so I have a question for you dave k…
other than the opinion i expressed (and if that opinions wrong, anyone/everyone please enlighten me), what is it that RS an the UK do that is so drastically different (do they just have more money than us?) in regards to dinghy sailing? how can we get back to where we were with “40 boats on every pond”? besides the v15, does vanguard have a plan for dinghy revival in the US?

someone has to have an answer, or at least an idea of where to start. small boat racing is so very important to our sport, its growth, and its members, imho. I keep getting a sad an sick feeling, like that old commercial (the one where the native american has the tear in his eyes looking at what has happened to his land) whenever I think about how things “used to be”.

cheers,
…_/)…_/)…

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

Well that's a big huge enormous question. And I have heard that the manufacturers willingness to introduce new classes all the time is having detrimental effects on the UK dinghy scene. Others please comment on this.
The roots of the differences between the US dinghy scene and the UK dinghy scene are older than I am by far. I remember as a young kid reading "Yachts and Yachting" thinking "where the hell are all these cool boats?" Dinghies seem to always have been bigger there.

There is some health in the US dinghy scene. Many classes are doing well. Many of the classes that Vanguard supplies are doing well. I think the common thread is that well managed classes are doing well. Snipes are doing awesome in the US, their Class leaders are doing all the right things - helping good races get run, making sure regattas are fun, communicating, etc. These are certainly things that I try to help our classes with. You also see these things in classes like Thistles, Lightnings, J22s, J24s, 505s, Etchells, etc. Some of those aren't dinghy classes, I know.

I cringe whenever I hear some influential person say to a young sailor "you could go to the Olympics one day if you want." What about saying "you can have a blast sailing 40 days a year for the rest of your life" instead? The Olympics are a great and grand thing that are irrelevant, from a participatory standpoint, to almost every sailor. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a medal on my mantelpiece, but if that's the whole crux of dinghy sailing, it'll die.

We aren't in a command economy, and people always give Vanguard too much credit for being able to tell people what to sail. We try to make boats that give people good value. British boats, by and large, are much more expensive than successful US dinghies. One of the neatest boats I've ever sailed was the Musto skiff, but there are precious few people in the US who have given any indication that they'd pay $16k for a singlehanded dinghy, so no one takes the opportunity to make it available here.

To your point about value, yes I think that longevity and value sell. $1k a year for pure boat costs probably isn't far wrong. That's I guess about where Lasers are, C420s beat it by a lot, Sunfish beat it by a mile, V15s are probably around there, Snipes are probably right in there. Give or take.

There are also a lot of other problems. My wife grew up on Barnegat Bay at a well known and established club. Their historic "rival" club, just down the street, which has produced a BUNCH of Olympians, AC sailors and champions of many stripes, is having to fight to keep their sailing program alive. Why? Because the sailing program doesn't make money, the tennis program did, and it would be better for the club if the dinghy park were turned into more courts. I can't even make this shit up.

This is already three times as long as it should be.

[Matt L]

Quote; And I have heard that the manufacturers willingness to introduce new classes all the time is having detrimental effects on the UK dinghy scene. Others please comment on this.

Yes like I just lost nearly £2500 on a £6000 boat in two seasons! Other than that its cool, The nice boats sell well and build big fleets, then somthing new comes along and everone moves classes, the price of the older class drops and then the kids get to own a boat that still kicks. 5 years ago the ISO was the biggest class at my club, then the same people switched to B14's and the competition is just as hot, just everone has had an new challenge in learning to sail an new boat, soon they will dump the B14's and find somthing new.

[JimC]

The interesting thing about the RS bit is that it isn't a class association in the traditional sense at all. Its a manufacturer led branding exercise, and they deliberately push the RS brand, and not the individual classes. That means that they retain brand loyalty as the new model comes along, the rs400 is fading in favour of the RS800, the 600 in favour of the 700 or instance. Clever way of keeping the sailor into the manufacturer while still able to vary the product. A traditional Class tends to be multiple manufacturers for the same model and isn't interested in that sort of brand loyalty.

The product is pretty good too. I wouldn't call any of them great boats, but they're all good - none of them are obvious dogs with no future in the way that the rapidly dying off 5 Tonner, Boss and ISO were. They made a good decision in using designers who were competetive in the types of boats they were selling - the 400 is a modernised Merlin for instance, and the 300 and 600 were designed by a guy who did reasonable Moths. By contrast the ISO and 5 Tonner were based on the pre amalgamation UK 14s that weren't really state of the art internationally. The one I really like of the bunch is the 300, which seems to be the one that's having most trouble selling. The 800 is very highly rated at the moment, but I think it could be very vulnerable to a superior product - maybe something between the 49er and the 29er (the only one of the current batch of SMODs I'd rate as being really outstanding, as much for the classy production engineering as the shape).

[Chris 249]

Hey Jim, what do you see as the faults of the 800 - lotsa people seem to really like it. Why would it be vulnerable in the "couples' skiff-type" market??

[JimC]

Chris 249, on Mar 24 2004, 11:19 PM, said:

Hey Jim, what do you see as the faults of the 800 - lotsa people seem to really like it. Why would it be vulnerable in the "couples' skiff-type" market??

Faults is too strong, right now I think its the best of type in the size, but people whose judgement I respect think there's room for improvement, especially in the rig area. I do hear rumours there has been some trouble about the weight equalisation stuff us well. They just seem a little bit down from the Bethwaite boats. I also hear the odd murmuring that one half of the couples sometimes finds the whole thing a bit too substantial. The 49er and 29er just seem a little bit better balanced to me.