Wild Oats keel Options

[johnnysaint]

As to your comments about Wild Oats keel, I had the same thoughts. The keel wasn't visible in the TV footage taken from a helicopter as they sailed up the Derwent, and the boat was responding to wind gusts (with all the crew on the rail) far more than one would expect with only a small (100% of foretriangle) headsail. In all other TV footage from the air, the canting keels are very obvious.

[The Dude]

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.

[Liquid]

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.

How many Open 60 canters have made it around the world at break neck speeds and survived????

T

[The Dude]

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.

How many Open 60 canters have made it around the world at break neck speeds and survived????

T

The last Around Alone. I think only 1 Canter made it back alive. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[sshow bob]

Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[The Dude]

Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????

[oomummado]

Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????

Canting keels are the future. Get over it.

[jdougherty]

yes, you're wrong, by a factor of 3 or 4. you also ignored three editions of vendee, two editions of around alone and every minitransat. do you actually have a point?


I think his point is that they are perceived to break a lot.

[Guest Anarchist US51208_*]

http://www.bymnews.com/photos/displayimage...lbum=216&pos=71

She looks overpowered in the picture from the above link, but you can see her keel is at full cant.

[sshow bob]

Wow. That's just a lot of power!!

[Rail Meat]

Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????

Yeah, you are wrong. Canters have been proven to be demonstrably faster than fixed or water ballast boats, and have a very good track record in total. A few problem with the VOR boats are hardly the indictment that you are trying to make it.

Yes, a free swinging keel caused by ram failure can be a real problem, which is why they have changed the rule to require tha the keel can be locked at center line. However, there have been very few situations where the keel has actually gone AWOL.

Let's put your wild eyed claim in perspective.

• There have been a number of keels lost in the past few years (Bernard, Tim, Mike G). Should we outlaw boats with keels? (shut up to all the multi hullers out there. If you want to get into an offshore comparative safety pissing match you are going to lose).
• There have been more mast failures on these boats in the past 5 years than canting keel failures. Does that mean that we should get rid of boats with masts?
• Those pesky sails that keep exploding under wind pressure. I guess we should get rid of boats that have sails.

Face facts.... Canting keels are here to stay. They are not yet bullet proof, and will continue to be refined and improve, just as every other technology on boats has improved. The people who sail on these boats and in these races are well aware of all of the risks, keels included. Your namby pamby hand wringing ain't gonna change a thing.

[The Dude]

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.

How many Open 60 canters have made it around the world at break neck speeds and survived????

T

The last Around Alone. I think only 1 Canter made it back alive. Please correct me if I am wrong.

yes, you're wrong, by a factor of 3 or 4. you also ignored three editions of vendee, two editions of around alone and every minitransat. do you actually have a point?

I am just repeating what is being said already. Canters are very cool & are here to stay. However Solo. Go & Get a "Steaming Cup Of Shut The Fuck Up" ....Jackass...Homo

s.

[The Dude]

Love too Solo....But iI need to get back to work now....Matbe later....Cheers

[vibroman]

Canters are cool form a lot of perspectives
Fact is, from a reliability perspective, the more complex a system is the less reliable it will be. Therefore canters will always be less reliable than their fixed keel counterparts period.
The question then becomes is how long will it be before the control mechanism design becomes "reliable enough" for ocean racing. Clearly up to now the systems appear to be under-designed. Especially if one considers the number of failures as a percentage of the total population. I think that they will get there eventually but it would appear to me that the designers do not yet fully understand the dynamic loads that are imparted to these devices in heavy weather.
Once they have that figured out it should be easy to develop the appropriate control mechanism. Once that is done I for one cannot wait for the technology to trickle down to us mere mortals. Provided they dont make be run the iron donkey to do it.
VM

[born2sail]

Yeah, you are wrong. Canters have been proven to be demonstrably faster than fixed or water ballast boats, and have a very good track record in total. A few problem with the VOR boats are hardly the indictment that you are trying to make it.

I seem to recall a few problems with canting keels on a couple VG boats, too.

[nroose]

Yes, canting keels are more complex than fixed keels.

However, you are comparing apples to oranges. Try building 2 boats that are the same speed. Give one a canting keel. it will have less ballast, so it will need less sail area, and less strength everywhere, which will make it lighter, so it can have even less sail area, etc. Once you optimize both boats to their design and required speed, I think you will have a cheaper, more reliable boat in the canter, because you will need less weight in the keel, and have, essentially, less boat.

I don't know how they build these things, but it should be possible to have a system that at least dampens the keel movement if the hydraulics fail. It doesn't have to be a system that requires you to be able to center it before you can lock it.

I don't dislike these things on their safety or reliability. I dislike these things on the fact that they are using a lot of diesel fuel to get to where they are going. However, I would not presume to tell others what they should do, I just don't like it.

[Rail Meat]

Yeah, you are wrong. Canters have been proven to be demonstrably faster than fixed or water ballast boats, and have a very good track record in total. A few problem with the VOR boats are hardly the indictment that you are trying to make it.

I seem to recall a few problems with canting keels on a couple VG boats, too.

Sure, there have been one or two problems on the VG, and in the last AA Bernard had serious problems with his lever arm. But considering how many miles these boats have sailed, and for how long now, there actually have not been very many problems. As a class, canting keel problems are one of the less pesky (albeit more catastrophic)

[TeamFugu]

I think that one of the problems with these things in the VOR is that flying off a wave at 20+ kts and landing on the canted fin is ripping the rams from their moorings. I realize that WO and AR have huge canting fins but I sure would feel better if there were some manual override in case the engine craps out for any reason. It may be slow but at least something could be done if there were a mishap.

I sometimes wonder if they could build foils that act like ailerons on a plane. If they could, it would reduce the amount of weight even more. This could help because that bulb could be smaller and would have less leverage agains the moorings as well as you could make the foil a little more flexible to dampen the shock of falling off a wave.

[boyscout]

Most of the boast have a system in place so that if the hydraulics fail the crew can grind the keel to center. It takes a long time but they can do it. Most of the Keel issues have been with under spec. pistions. If the pistions attached to the keel snap then you can't even grind the keel back in place.
And the last word on the street was that pirates had a bad seal for the keel wich made the keel box fill with water and over pressureise the box, and movie star may have hit a sunken container.

[Bow Monkey]

It might just be my opinion, but my logic behind why canting keels have such a bad reputation as being dangerous and prone to fail is only because they're the hot new toy on race boats. Every time a canting keel fails, it's going to get publicity. This is no different than the fact that every time a plane crashes it makes the front page of the paper. Everyone knows that planes are safer than cars, but it still makes sensational news. Then people start ranting and raving about how dangerous planes are and how we need all new safety rules, inspections, etc. It's the same for canting keels. I'm not going to say they're reliable just yet (in the world of sailing, these things are brand spanking new prototypes compared to existing keel concepts), but they're not the big evil monster that the sailing world is playing them up to be. They just make for an easy target. Oats probably did have keel problems coming into Hobart, but kept it quiet because they didn't want to set off a media frenzy based on the exact direction this thread is headed. Was the inability to cant the keel properly catastrophic or even dangerous to them? Nope. They just reduced sail and dealt with it. Even if it happened out in the straits, they could have just carried the current jibe 'til they sorted it out. Canting keels will get safer and more reliable with every new generation of race boat, but even the current breed are still manageable.

[Guest Anarchist canted_*]

WHAT IS WITH EVERYONE DUMPING ON CANTING KEELS. IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER GEAR FAILURES (I.E. RUDDERS, RIGGING, MASTS AND ELECTRONICS) COMPARED TO CANTING KEELS THE RATIO WOULD BE 10 TO 1. THE MODERN MAXIS ARE BUILT TO MINIMUM SPECS WITH AS MUCH HORSE POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO AS POSSIBLE, FOR LINE HONORS AND NOT MUCH ELSE. THE VENDEE GLOBE, AROUND ALONE AND VOR HAVE EXCELLENT RECORDS AS FAR AS BREAKAGES AND STILL FINISHING. CANTING KEELS ARE THE WAY TO GO FOR OCEAN RACING AND WILL BE AROUND FOR ALONG TIME. QUIT TRYING TO SKIMP ON THE SPECS AND BUILD THE SYSTEM TO DO THE JOB.

[B30]

WHAT IS WITH EVERYONE DUMPING ON CANTING KEELS. IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER GEAR FAILURES (I.E. RUDDERS, RIGGING, MASTS AND ELECTRONICS) COMPARED TO CANTING KEELS THE RATIO WOULD BE 10 TO 1. THE MODERN MAXIS ARE BUILT TO MINIMUM SPECS WITH AS MUCH HORSE POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO AS POSSIBLE, FOR LINE HONORS AND NOT MUCH ELSE. THE VENDEE GLOBE, AROUND ALONE AND VOR HAVE EXCELLENT RECORDS AS FAR AS BREAKAGES AND STILL FINISHING. CANTING KEELS ARE THE WAY TO GO FOR OCEAN RACING AND WILL BE AROUND FOR ALONG TIME. QUIT TRYING TO SKIMP ON THE SPECS AND BUILD THE SYSTEM TO DO THE JOB.

BASIL EXPOSITION
The shouting is a temporary side-
effect of the unfreezing process.

AUSTIN
Yes, I'm having trouble
controlling (shouting)
THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE!

[vegavexity]

these darn canting keels are a fad.... just like that there internet....

[f off]

Canters are cool form a lot of perspectives
Fact is, from a reliability perspective, the more complex a system is the less reliable it will be. Therefore canters will always be less reliable than their fixed keel counterparts period.
The question then becomes is how long will it be before the control mechanism design becomes "reliable enough" for ocean racing. Clearly up to now the systems appear to be under-designed. Especially if one considers the number of failures as a percentage of the total population. I think that they will get there eventually but it would appear to me that the designers do not yet fully understand the dynamic loads that are imparted to these devices in heavy weather.
Once they have that figured out it should be easy to develop the appropriate control mechanism. Once that is done I for one cannot wait for the technology to trickle down to us mere mortals. Provided they dont make be run the iron donkey to do it.
VM

My totally uneducated and gut guess is that the state of the art boats are trying to keep the weight of the canting systems down and therefor drasticallly underbuilding/underengineering the systems. And that is why we are seeing the failures. That and the newness of hte systems probably add to the unreliability.

Another factor is that the only boats using the canting keel are the really "go fast" boats. And they typically experience a huge amount of failures based on the way they push the boats.

Kind of the nature of the beast in my op.

FO

[Wash]

swinging keel? or is it really the boat rocking on top of a keel pointing straight down when these things fail?