Hendo on Cheating, Innerview Options

[Editor]

Comments from the Innerview on the front page?

[Pete M]

interesting that you went to the plumber for a comment......

did you ask him on his pet rule that all dinghies must have 4 part mainsheets?

[PreparetoJibe]

Is there an MP3 I can download of this Innerview?

[Finnster]

It just shows the absolute stupidity of those people "in charge" of our sport. I was in Lauderdale at Midwinters, and one judge was pretty much assigned full time just on Paige watch. Why does the Laser class insist on hampering its own athletes by keeping stupid and moronic rules such as rule 42.

I sail a Finn, and we have a Q flag that goes up at 12 knots. The 470 has the same rule as we do, in that once the Q flag goes up, we're allowed unlimited pumping downwind, which only makes sense. This isn't a Lido fucking 14, its a Finn, and yes, the younger guys are in better shape than us Masters, and yes, they pump their asses off. Yet, the Laser insists that the sailor, who in this case is an athlete, just dumbly sit there, downwind, knowing that they're hampered from pumping to initiate better boatspeed, especially in marginal surfing conditions. Its these archaic rules that keep sailing, especially in performance dinghies, in the stone age.

And finally, why is it that the men's class in Finns has come up with a rule counteracting the kinetics rule 42, while the Laser class does nothing. I'm sorry, but what a bunch of bone heads.

[southerly buster]

well done paul....sailing has so many opportunities to cheat as does golf...in the end we race against ourselves. most sailors know the rules and understand when they have breached them. winning is the objective , but to do so from cheating is never a rewarding experience...as for the rolex sailing awards...how big a grain of salt do we need..

[skint-again]

It doesnt really matter if you agree with the rule or not, the fact is that it is a rule that is in place and all Laser sailors competing in large regattas know it, anyone who gets chucked for three flags is typically pushing the limits, for it to happen in two major regattas would indicate that this sailor lives on that knife edge.

By the way anyone with some spatial awareness has an idea where the judge boats are and can act accordingly, as stated in the interview if the judges think someone is pushing the limits they watch for repeated infractions before blowing the whistle so if the boat is close take more care.

Just to clarify I have raced Lasers and have also completed training with international Judges including on the water Judging of Laser events so have seen it from both sides.

Cheers

[Terrorvision]

It doesnt really matter if you agree with the rule or not, the fact is that it is a rule that is in place and all Laser sailors competing in large regattas know it........

Exactly right- if the rule is there it should be adhered to.
I think pumping is cheating too- muscles and stamina win out over skill and that is not the point of sailing.

[pmonkey3686]

No Comment as the answer is obvious. By the way I have never had a vote.

Great interview, I'm glad he was honest while still being respectful. I'm sure we've all been on the recieving end of some bad calls, especially with on the water judging (I know I have at least). But once you get flagged once, you know how far to push it, and work around that. I talked to a judge after one of the "questionable" calls he made on us, and he explained to me exactly what was being said on the umpire boat, and what perspective they had. (This was a match race, so it wasn't quite as clear cut as a rule 42 violation). It ended up that they were at a weird angle because we had been in a tacking dual, and he thought they made the wrong call. He ended up buying me a beer, and turned out to be a great guy.

I'm a huge fan of on the water judging, every regatta that I've sailed with it, the sailors have behaved quite well, and those that didn't got screwed. The fairness factor is much higher than with self policing.

I also liked that he was a hockey fan. GO SABRES!

[Windex]

It just shows the absolute stupidity of those people "in charge" of our sport.

Why does the Laser class insist on hampering its own athletes by keeping stupid and moronic rules such as rule 42.

I'm sorry, but what a bunch of bone heads.



...knowing that they're hampered from pumping to initiate better boatspeed, especially in marginal surfing conditions.



Its these archaic rules that keep sailing, especially in performance dinghies, in the stone age.

And finally, why is it that the men's class in Finns has come up with a rule counteracting the kinetics rule 42, while the Laser class does nothing.

1 - The first three comments above prove his point about people that get caught attacking the rules and the judges. I don't know, but I'd guess you've raced a Laser and been flagged for Rule 42.

2 - In the Laser class, as with most others, you're allowed to pump the sheet a limited amount of times to catch surf. That's not what Paige was flagged for. She, and a hell of a lot of other Laser sailors, rolltack and rolljibe repeatedly at close intervals when there's no tactical reason for doing it... essentially flapping their way towards the mark. I don't care who's doing it... that's not sailing.

3 - Those "archaic" rules must explain why the Laser class has the largest fleet in the world and has attracted the best sailors on the planet for the past 30 years. I'm very glad you pointed out that the Finn class eliminated Rule 42... maybe that will attract people that want to flap their wings, and the rest of us can race.

[Windex]

And I thought the interview was great. Rules are made to give everyone a competitive chance. If the Laser class were to change it's rules, great... as long as everyone plays by the same rules.

He also had some very level-headed, insightful comments.

[dogwatch]

Why does the Laser class insist on hampering its own athletes by keeping stupid and moronic rules such as rule 42.

Presumably because it's what most sailors in the class want? Any class association AGM I've ever been to has discussed and voted on proposed rule changes. Most of the sailors in the class aren't "athletes", they are just club sailors.

If you don't like class rules you can 1. try and get them changed or 2. go and sail another class.

I spent a few years "air rowing" sailboards and it wasn't much fun in light airs. It didn't bear much resemblance to sailing and it was one of the reasons I moved to dinghies.

[Guest Anarchist Maciej_*]

This is a problem that is rooted in junior sailing, but mainly in the US collegiate system. After spending four years on the MAISA circuit, I can honestly say that I really learnt how to pump a boat. Not to say that this learning is exclusive, but breaching rule 42 is pretty rampant in collegiate sailing.

Paul’s example of Buddy Melges is great. I have seen many typical college events, with little wind, where sailors perform tack after tack, passing the whole fleet. They then casually receive their awards and are congratulated by their coaches.

There are a lot of coaches at the junior club level now, that encouraging pumping to prepare sailors’ for their entry into college. This obviously trickles down into international events such as this as time passes.

The problem is based on role-models. There are judges at the junior level, but most of them are largely inexperienced, either trusting the judgment of college age summer coaches, or completely ignorant of the kinetics of the class. Too lenient or strict; there is no balance.

Perhaps a move to younger, more involved ISAF judges at junior events can alleviate this problem?

[Guest Anarchist Reggie Bear_*]

This is a problem that is rooted in junior sailing, but mainly in the US collegiate system. After spending four years on the MAISA circuit, I can honestly say that I really learnt how to pump a boat. Not to say that this learning is exclusive, but breaching rule 42 is pretty rampant in collegiate sailing.

Paul’s example of Buddy Melges is great. I have seen many typical college events, with little wind, where sailors perform tack after tack, passing the whole fleet. They then casually receive their awards and are congratulated by their coaches.

There are a lot of coaches at the junior club level now, that encouraging pumping to prepare sailors’ for their entry into college. This obviously trickles down into international events such as this as time passes.

The problem is based on role-models. There are judges at the junior level, but most of them are largely inexperienced, either trusting the judgment of college age summer coaches, or completely ignorant of the kinetics of the class. Too lenient or strict; there is no balance.

Perhaps a move to younger, more involved ISAF judges at junior events can alleviate this problem?

That is what i was going to say. As a sort of college sailor I can say for a face that if you dont cheat you are going to have to sial perfectly to do well. My coach Butch Minson is a stickler for the rules and rule 42 is one that he cannot stand seeing broken. We as a team are tought on day one what you need to say in aprotest to get the cheaters thrown out. We had a race in some dinghy tournament at another school where a boat was ruled to have been pumping to surf in 3-5 and 6inch waves? Now seriously does that make any sense. This was all because the coaches on the protest commette all have teams that cheat with regards to rule 42. This is one of the things that make sailing no fun for me and the main reason that i dont sail dinghys anymore. Thanks Ed for getting this innerview done, it makes some of retain what little faith we have left with sailing higher ups.

[Jambalaya]

This is a problem that is rooted in junior sailing, but mainly in the US collegiate system. After spending four years on the MAISA circuit, I can honestly say that I really learnt how to pump a boat. Not to say that this learning is exclusive, but breaching rule 42 is pretty rampant in collegiate sailing.

There is the problem - the US sailors are 'learning' in the early part of their sailing career that if they don't cheat they are unlikely to win.

[kent_island_sail...]

Good innerview.
A long time ago I raced 420s. I quicky realized that to be serious involved a lot of kinetic bullcrap that didn't look lile sailing at all to me and went back to keelboats.

[dain bramage]

Thanks Ed.

Great innerview. I appreciated Hendo's candor and willingness to discuss this problem.

Acknowledging the problem is the first step to recovery (so I'm told).........................


dain

[Death Dealer]

Look, it's simple. Its a rule. she broke it. then she broke it again after being called on it, then one more time for good measure=stupidity.
Not learning from ones mistakes IMHO is Darwinism at its best. You could perhaps equate it to steriods in pro athletes. they want the edge and through the pressures on these athletes they try to break the rules. Then get caught. Railey got caught THREE times!
I didn't hear how many times Tunnicliffe got called on rule 42? Anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Chill Town]

Zero

[J Buoy]

Great innerview. Like him or not he is clear with his opinions. I also think that the answer is obvious.

[RacerChaser]

The Paige roasting has to stop. This girl is one of the top female sailors in the world right now. She pushes it on all levels, and frankly who gives a fuck if she ruffles the crusty ass of Paul Henderson.

The sport has changed, unfortunetly we have to listen to Henderson tell stories of of the Buddy Melges era. Have you seen or heard the video of Buddy yelling at his crew in Key West last year? Even the great ones of our sports have moments, do you think we focused on that instead of Buddy greatness?

Dont you think Paige will learn?

[gr8_Lakes_vibe]

The answer may be obvious concerning Paige Railey's actions at worlds and miami ocr, but its not for dinghy sailing in general. To say that someone that infringes on rule 42 is a cold, calculating, cheater that intended to do so from the moment they woke up that morning is a total exaggeration in the vast majority of cases. Anyone that sails dinghys knows that. Its just as easy in the heat of the moment to put a little extra oomph behind a pump or rock than it is to tack too close or to try to squeeze in front of a starboard tacker. Its on the same level. Putting that on the same par with repeat violations and two major disqualifications is ridiculous.

The anecdote about Buddy was totally out of place (even if it was a good story). Who among us has witnessed unchecked roll gybing in light air? if you did then why the hell didn't you protest?

[ChiGuy]

Does anybody happen to know what part of 42 Paige was tossed on? Was it the same every time?

It is rather instructive being an auld phart at the back of a local club Laser fleet. You get to watch all sorts of rocking and pumping, some of it even legal.

[Phoenix]

It seems that there are two camps in this matter. We have the kineticists and the nonkineticists. The is so little kinetics in the Etchells that I don't have a dog in this fight.

However, I will bring up a short conversation I had many years ago with the Ed's special buddy, Bruce Nelson. We were talking about sculling and rocking in light air on keelboats. Bruce said that the anti kinetics movement was lobbied for hard by the US because we weren't very good at it compared to the Europeans. I think he was still pretty fresh out of Finns at the time.

[TpaBayFlyFisher]

If this were football and a player got flagged repeatedly for late hits he would be suspended. Unfortunately, it seems that some racers feel that you have to force the judges to call you on rule 42 or you are not trying hard enough. This kind of thinking makes it easy to know for whom to root!

[lofty]

The Paige roasting has to stop. This girl is one of the top female sailors in the world right now. She pushes it on all levels, and frankly who gives a fuck if she ruffles the crusty ass of Paul Henderson.

The sport has changed, unfortunetly we have to listen to Henderson tell stories of of the Buddy Melges era. Have you seen or heard the video of Buddy yelling at his crew in Key West last year? Even the great ones of our sports have moments, do you think we focused on that instead of Buddy greatness?

Dont you think Paige will learn?

I like what you say.