Pros Steering, an issue is looming Options

[Editor]

Many of you know that SoCal hotshot Billy Hardesty came out and steered #19 on day one of the NOODS. They racked up a 1-2-2, and though we had a better 2-1-1, I think it is safe to say that there are hardly any amateur sailors who could beat him in a straight fight. He's just that much better. Now we hear that another pro and equally good sailor, Willem van Waay is going to be driving a new boat at the Yachting Cup here in Dago. While it doesn't sweat me personally, I am 100% certain that it is not good for the class to have pros steering boats that they do not own. This is nothing against either of these guys, who are really good people, it is about the welfare and direction of the class.

Pros participation is to be encouraged in this class - they can raise the game of the entire boat in a number of roles - coach, trimer, tactics, but having them come on board and just steer, that does nobody any good, other than the owner of the boat, or the pro.

This class needs to quickly and clearly disallow pros from steering, otherwise y'all can can get used to getting your ass kicked when they show up. And they'll show up.

[Phil]

Whats wrong with an 'owner-driver' rule in the class rules?
Nothing, if they like the boat ,tell them to buy one.

[JDL]

Outlaw anyone who has ever been a pro of any kind?

But I don't see any clothes.

Scot, getting pros involved at this point is a positive....the hot new class....etc.

You're just stirring.....right?

[Editor]

No. Pros should not steer, plain and simple. And use the rules from other OD classes that have handled it properly to define who is a pro. It's easy and should happen right away. I

[JDL]

No. Pros should not steer, plain and simple. And use the rules from other OD classes that have handled it properly to define who is a pro. It's easy and should happen right away. I

Scot,

You were a pro....right?

So, what did you know and when did you stop knowing it?

Promote the class, build numbers, worry about this shit later....

[Editor]

I'm a boat owner and not a pro. End of story. Like I said, pros should be involved on a number of levels, but steering is not one of them. And you do not worry about this later - you deal with it right now so that it does not become an issue.

[EWS]

I'm with the ED on this one.....we can encourage pro's on the boats but driving is an entirely different matter.....this should be added to the agenda for this weeks class association meeting....

[J/80 Jibberish]

I'm with the Ed. If the pros want to drive, buy a boat.

[jibeset]

I am all for supporting a owner/driver rule. Just let us sailmakers and other pro's on board to help out.

jibeset

[miltwempley]

I'm all about an owner/driver rule. I had a pro on board today (poncho), but I drove all the races. Four bullets. Could we have done as well without him? Maybe... but he helped us tremendously, and never ran the show. It was about coaching and helping the team. We'll all be better racers for it and that will help the class. Wouldn't have been the same to just hand over the tiller... we wouldn't have taken in nearly as much, and this was much more gratifying.

Oh, and thanks Keith -- great two days of racing!

[Saylrbouy]

Look at the results of any J22 class national or world event in past 10 years. How many pros there in top 3? Something like 2-3 every damn event. How do us smucks at the middle of the pack feel, paying the fees, buying their damn rags, and then having them rub it in year after year....

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

Write an Owner/Amateur Drive rule into the class rule(as was suggested above), done and dusted, the Syd38 and F40 class havnt suffered as a result of this rule

[spectator]

Owner & Amateur Drivers only!

[Terrorvision]

The pro's are one of the things that killed the Magic 25 class so early.

[tweaker]

I for one like top competition. If pros want in to drive I say let them in as owners. At least 1/3-1/2 interest. How do you prove it? A copy of the partnership agreement.

What are some of the rules the other fleets have? J-120, 40.7 , etc?

[rastus]

defining what a pro is, is definatly a hard call. Especially when sailing is their job and they want to sail for free or beer.

[Adrift]

If the pros want to drive let them buy a boat, the objective of the class is to stay inexpensive so anyone can buy one. At the same time pros should not be discouraged from crewing and coaching on boats so that owners can get up to speed quickly.

The next question is should there be a maximum number of pros allowed on a boat? My response would be no because I like sailing with my buddies and some happen to be pro.

Defining a pro as an ISAF Group 3 competitor.

[George Hackett]

i vote for owner drivers. a group 1 sailor can relieve the owner but not take over? and none of this crap about the pro being a part owner of the boat.

[Snapper]

What if you're a 'pro' but own a Tiger.

[Derek Grebe]

What if you're a 'pro' but own a Tiger.

then you are an owner driver.

to quote another in these forums, 'drive on'

[Bryce]

Owner driver. Owners like this. Ask anyone who campaigned a Mumm 36 and was encouraged to sit quietly on the rail whilst the pros raced and considered the list of expensive improvement they would like completed before the next event. With ‘Owner Driver’, you just have to put up with the occasional foot on the tiller… not from personal experience of course.

Just for reference, ISAF suggests definitions and classifications on http://www.sailing.org/classification/classificationcode.asp just in case there is a confusion of what a Pro is or isn’t. There are other similar definitions (appendix R of RRS). You then need to decide if there will be a limitation of ‘Owner Driver’ AND ‘No Pro’ or not.

What about the number of Pros or Group 3 sailors allowed for an FT10 crew for a OD event?

A humble suggestion having experienced the pain… Either get it sorted and established rules asap or be very tough in policing the rules once established. Formulating rules around what folks are already doing dooms the class to a lopsided failure.

[FatimaRules]

How about ISAF group 3 can only drive if an owner. If not Group 3, anyone can drive.

It means the group of mates don't have to worry about it, or an inexperienced owner can hand off to a more experienced mate for more intense (dangerous) racing if he wants to, but still enjoy owning and racing it.

[Casual Fling]

I just wish the Ed would quit blowing his own trumpet with regard to his accomplishments in the FT 10.

With all due respect to the FT10 class and boat, it's still in its infancy and currently lacks any real quality competition.

Jump in a Melges 24 or 32, Etchells, Mumm 30 and I bet you'd eat a bit of humble Pie!!

If the class continues to grow in numbers and strength (which I hope and think it will), the "Pro's" will find their way in one way or another, and the standard WILL rise for better or worse! Whether they are on the helm or somewhere else ultimately doesn't make a difference.

Bit of a conundrum really as wasn't the original brief to design an affordable club racer??!!

I think you're just scared of getting your asses kicked!!

[Jeff B]

I'm 100% with scot on this one. Strict Owner/driver rule is needed. In fact I would go a step further and say only 1 pro on board for a race. It would easy for a deep pocket owner to buy a win by loading up the boat with hired hands. A pro on-board is awesome as a coach, tactician, trimmer, etc. But a whole boatload is buying a win, pure and simple. The point of this class was to keep it affordable. If you want a full on pro class, go buy a Melges 24 or 32.

[Riddle of Braste...]

If I`m correct one of the targets of the Flying Tiger project was to get an affordable class. If pros. are going to enter this class it will mess up that target. I even think the owner/driver rule should apply in more classes or specific regattas to promote race sailing for enthusiastic amateurs.