[WillieCrear]

After being chastised and shut down by the Editor, many of us (and many have called me) are going through Sailing Anarchy Addiction Withdrawal, at least as it applies to A scows. Every day, looking into the Sailing Anarchy thread, is like looking for that old girlfriend's letter (OK, let's be ecumenical about this, could be an old boyfriend) in the mailbox.
I have a number of historical (hysterical?) documents queued up, and here is one of my favorites: Buddy Melges, speaking on the record to the Fleet Representative to the ILYA for the A class, Brad Robinson.
In this letter, the recently self-crowned champion of 'one-design' laments the demise of the A fleet, if they should be so foolish as to go down that primrose path of One-designing the A scow, whatever that means.
Reading between the lines, one discovers that Melges 'introduced' the asymmetrical spinnaker that year. No advance notice, no class approval, just several boats showed up at the Inland Championships sporting asymmetricals, and Buddy, with righteous indignation, defending that decision in the following letter.
Not documented anywhere, but also introduced at the Inland Championships in 1992 or ‘93, on KANZA, Bill Koch's new A boat, was the carbon fiber spar. That was also not announced in advance, and was only discovered when the gooseneck fitting, designed by Art Brereton in 1980 for aluminium, failed and drove itself into the carbon fibre laminate.
This is the Melges method of introducing new product to the A fleet. But read on; the letter follows:
_______________________________________________________


(Melges Boat Works logo)

Melges Boat Works, Inc.

Zenda Road
Zenda, Wisconsin 53195

414-248-6621 Phone
414-248-8012 Fax
800-633-0494

November 16, 1993

Mr. Brad Robinson
Excelsior, MN 55331

Dear Brad:

I saw your earlier correspondence to John Porter and some of the fleet members and I certainly do take exception to your calling our approach a “lawless” one. I think if the Class is going to move forward it has to be open minded with new rules and the use of new sails. Certainly your 3DL had everybody concerned at the Invitational.

After sailing around Louie Morgan quite a bit of the time at the Invitational and observing the way he was flying the spinnaker; knowing what the new rule within the IYRU and the fact that the Class allowed for a foreguy more than four feet forward of the mast, I could see no reason for us not to proceed with the legitimate asymmetrical sail. My recollection of Mel Jones’ asymmetrical spinnaker is very much like the sail we put out this Summer.

If the A fleet is going to remain status quo and strict one-design, I make a public offering at this time for one set of production A Class molds for $150,000. These molds are for side trusses, strongbacks, hull, deck and other interior molds necessary to construct a Class A scow. I would have absolutely no interest in trying to promote the A Class, if in fact, you “shit can” the asymmetrical and go back to the ways of 1978. The life span of the A boat would be doomed and in five years it’ll be right back to the six boat regatta that we experienced prior to the advent of fiberglass boats and the risk taken by Bill Perrigo and Melges Boat Works.

The asymmetrical spinnaker simplifies downwind sailing dramatically. The jibing and handling of the sail can be done with great ease and stability of the craft in all winds at all angles. It is true that we need to add some restrictions if we want to do some control on the number of asymmetrical sails and it can be done either by putting a minimum size restriction or by saying the sail can not be used closer than 100 degrees to the wind. On our shifty lakes this might be difficult but it could constrict the use of the sail so that we would not have a double headsail rig going to windward.

The bow sprit is an entirely different issue and I feel needs a submission for one boat to install a bow sprit and have the ability to cut a sail that best suits this bow sprit. Then we can all observe in 1994 and at the end of the Inland have a fleet meeting at trophy presentation and vote on the determination of the bow sprit. Colman [sic] Norris is willing to submit this request and we can install a bow sprit and I think it’s wonderful that Colman will guinea pig the effort. I think he’s a very serious A scow member at this moment and wants to see the fleet move forward and with the times.

I’ve not much more to say. A ballot is enclosed and I remain…

Sincerely yours,

(signature)

Buddy Melges

BM:jio
Enclosure

cc: All A Fleet Owners

____________________________________________________


In responding to this thread, let us be sensitive to the Editor's wishes, and curtail our references to male genitalia, or any other genitalia, for that matter.

Willie Crear, Saco, Maine

[another 505 sailor]

ignored this thread a long time ago.
it's done.

[Pete M]

thanks Willie, I find this of interest
and Fuck you frank, just shut up.

Which melges is driving this? the elder, or the sons?

[Heriberto]

mighetto, on Sep 22 2004, 11:54 PM, said:

OK I can add something.

Take a 14 year old kid. Deprive him of US Sailing Accredited training. Put him in a melges and what do you get?

Its a pop quiz. The answer will be on FOYD tomorrow.

Hey ASSHOLE!

BUY YOUR OWN GODDAMN WEBSITE OR AT LEAST STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THREADS YOU HAVE JACK SQUAT TO DO WITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WillieCrear]

Pete M, on Sep 23 2004, 12:28 AM, said:

thanks Willie, I find this of interest

Which melges is driving this? the elder, or the sons?

Pete, the primary mover behind the boycott of Brad's boat is Buddy, not Harry Melges III. That letter, the one that Buddy sent out on October 22 a year ago, calling for the boycott of Brad's new boat, is on the other thread 'A Scow, very, very ugly'.

I'll try to figure out on which of the 500 pages it lies so you don't have to go through the whole thread.

Voila! It is on Page 3 of the other thread, here is a link:
http://www.sailingan...t=100&hl=a+scow

Congratulations on your recent Severn regatta win...by the hair of your chinny-chin-chin!

[Pete M]

thx for the link willie, and yes it was a close one indeed

[Jib Man]

I'm glad to see this discussion going again and agree with the proposal to keep the conversation more civilized.

That's a pretty interesting letter from Buddy Melges. I should point out that the addition of assymetrical spinnakers and carbon masts ended up being successful, because they could be retrofitted to existing hulls and because nearly everyone sailing A scows liked the changes.

Willie, Ruffian and anyone else associated with Victory-by-Design - I have a question. Can your new hull shape pass the above-mentioned litmus test?

I'd like to respectfully ask a few more questions, if I may:

- What do you think about the new proposal to have 2 separate A-scow starts at regattas beginning in 2006?

- At the end of the "very very ugly" thread, I asked if you would be willing to share the CAD files comparing the Victory-by-Design and Melges hull shapes. Any thoughts?

- Who the hell is Ruffian?

[Jib Man]

Willie and crew - here is the really interesting question:

Are you preparing to build more boats from the Victory-by-Design mold?

What is the status?

Here's another one - why doesn't Brad participate in this discussion? Or is he Ruffian?

[Rail Meat]

Jib Man, on Sep 27 2004, 06:24 PM, said:

That's a pretty interesting letter from Buddy Melges. I should point out that the addition of assymetrical spinnakers and carbon masts ended up being successful, because they could be retrofitted to existing hulls and because nearly everyone sailing A scows liked the changes.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so perhaps you think my opinion does not matter. But I would point out that if Buddy felt compelled to write that letter, then obviously the statement "nearly everyone ....liked the changes" is not true. Some number of people apparently disliked the changes, or the way the changes were made, enough to force the publication of that letter.

By the way, from an outsider's perspective that letter smells of hipocricy when compared to the Melges camp reaction to Victory. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander....

[Jib Man]

Rail Meat, on Sep 27 2004, 10:50 AM, said:

I would point out that if Buddy felt compelled to write that letter, then obviously the statement "nearly everyone ....liked the changes" is not true. Some number of people apparently disliked the changes, or the way the changes were made, enough to force the publication of that letter.

By the way, from an outsider's perspective that letter smells of hipocricy when compared to the Melges camp reaction to Victory. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander....

What's really interesting is that the main person against the innovations in the past, including the assymetrical spinnaker, was none other than Brad Robinson, the owner of Victory-by-Design and the center of this mess.

Now the situation is reversed and the stakes are a lot higher, because the entire fleet is threatened with obsolecence.

I wish that Buddy would speak for himself on this forum, but I am pretty sure that he would say he's not opposed to progress and development, but is vehemently opposed to having all of the existing A scows obsoleted in one fell swoop.

Buddy is not being hypocritical by fighting for innovation in the above-letter and against Victory-by-Design. IMHO he is fighting for maintaining the long-existing standard of incremental innovation that does not wipe out the fleet.

[WillieCrear]

Ruffian, on Sep 26 2004, 06:58 PM, said:

WillieCrear, on Sep 22 2004, 06:42 PM, said:

After being chastised and shut down by the Editor, many of us (and many have called me) are going through Sailing Anarchy Addiction Withdrawal, at least as it applies to A scows. Every day, looking into the Sailing Anarchy thread, is like looking for that old girlfriend's letter (OK, let's be ecumenical about this, could be an old boyfriend) in the mailbox.
I have a number of historical (hysterical?) documents queued up, and here is one of my favorites: Buddy Melges, speaking on the record to the Fleet Representative to the ILYA for the A class, Brad Robinson.
In this letter, the recently self-crowned champion of 'one-design' laments the demise of the A fleet, if they should be so foolish as to go down that primrose path of One-designing the A scow, whatever that means.
Reading between the lines, one discovers that Melges 'introduced' the asymmetrical spinnaker that year. No advance notice, no class approval, just several boats showed up at the Inland Championships sporting asymmetricals, and Buddy, with righteous indignation, defending that decision in the following letter.
Not documented anywhere, but also introduced at the Inland Championships in 1992 or ‘93, on KANZA, Bill Koch's new A boat, was the carbon fiber spar. That was also not announced in advance, and was only discovered when the gooseneck fitting, designed by Art Brereton in 1980 for aluminium, failed and drove itself into the carbon fibre laminate.
This is the Melges method of introducing new product to the A fleet. But read on; the letter follows:
_______________________________________________________


(Melges Boat Works logo)

Melges Boat Works, Inc.

Zenda Road
Zenda, Wisconsin 53195

414-248-6621 Phone
414-248-8012 Fax
800-633-0494

November 16, 1993

Mr. Brad Robinson
Excelsior, MN 55331

Dear Brad:

I saw your earlier correspondence to John Porter and some of the fleet members and I certainly do take exception to your calling our approach a “lawless” one.  I think if the Class is going to move forward it has to be open minded with new rules and the use of new sails.  Certainly your 3DL had everybody concerned at the Invitational.

After sailing around Louie Morgan quite a bit of the time at the Invitational and observing the way he was flying the spinnaker; knowing what the new rule within the IYRU and the fact that the Class allowed for a foreguy more than four feet forward of the mast, I could see no reason for us not to proceed with the legitimate asymmetrical sail.  My recollection of Mel Jones’ asymmetrical spinnaker is very much like the sail we put out this Summer.

If the A fleet is going to remain status quo and strict one-design, I make a public offering at this time for one set of production A Class molds for $150,000.  These molds are for side trusses, strongbacks, hull, deck and other interior molds necessary to construct a Class A scow.  I would have absolutely no interest in trying to promote the A Class, if in fact, you “shit can” the asymmetrical and go back to the ways of 1978.  The life span of the A boat would be doomed and in five years it’ll be right back to the six boat regatta that we experienced prior to the advent of fiberglass boats and the risk taken by Bill Perrigo and Melges Boat Works.

The asymmetrical spinnaker simplifies downwind sailing dramatically.  The jibing and handling of the sail can be done with great ease and stability of the craft in all winds at all angles.  It is true that we need to add some restrictions if we want to do some control on the number of asymmetrical sails and it can be done either by putting a minimum size restriction or by saying the sail can not be used closer than 100 degrees to the wind.  On our shifty lakes this might be difficult but it could constrict the use of the sail so that we would not have a double headsail rig going to windward. 

The bow sprit is an entirely different issue and I feel needs a submission for one boat to install a bow sprit and have the ability to cut a sail that best suits this bow sprit.  Then we can all observe in 1994 and at the end of the Inland have a fleet meeting at trophy presentation and vote on the determination of the bow sprit.  Colman [sic] Norris is willing to submit this request and we can install a bow sprit and I think it’s wonderful that Colman will guinea pig the effort.  I think he’s a very serious A scow member at this moment and wants to see the fleet move forward and with the times. 

I’ve not much more to say.  A ballot is enclosed and I remain…

Sincerely yours,

(signature)

Buddy Melges

BM:jio
Enclosure

cc: All A Fleet Owners

____________________________________________________


In responding to this thread, let us be sensitive to the Editor's wishes, and curtail our references to male genitalia, or any other genitalia, for that matter.

Willie Crear, Saco, Maine

Hey Willie,

Just returned from a day sail on Victory. 76 degrees and wind at 15 from the south without a cloud in the sky. Hope you're jealous.

Ruffian

Now you have me stumped.

There was only one female on Victory yesterday (Susana Robinson), I am told, so you must be male.

From your earlier posts, which I researched: you don't own a boat now.

I have no clue as to your identity. Figuring out that Jib Man was Geoff Evans was easy by comparison.

Oh yes...jealous? Yes...when I look at Victory going upwind, higher and faster.

Jealous? Yes...when I see Victory break around the weather mark, and set those @#$%&%*# asymmetricals with that high sprit, and don't even come close to shrimping the chute.

Jealous? Yes...when I see Victory fall off onto a new tack, with perfect jib trim, every time, no matter who is trimming the jib, since she is self-tacking.

Jealous? Yes...when we are waiting around for enough wind to start, and the Victory crew is lounging on that larger-than-life strongback/keelson running down the center of their hull.

Jealous? Yes...when my own brother Dan says he's going to sail on Victory in 2004, but isn't interested in sailing on one of the old Melges man-eaters, including my 1985 Melges hull, Adieu.

Jealous? Yes...enough to make me want to build a new, carbon fiber, 1200 pound A scow, out of the Victory molds. Let's see here, a 650 pound advantage in weight over the current Victory hull...mebbe that's enough weight advantage to best Tom Burton (the jury is definitely out on that). Now all I need is 3 partners/syndicate members to defray the $90,000 cost of the new, Son of Victory.

And what will the new boat be named? Crikey, we got a problem already. The first one was Innisfree, the second Sacajawea, the most recent, defaulted to Adieu, the Chute name. Someone suggested Hollow Victory. How about Pyrrhic Victory? Maid of Victory? Total Victory? Son of Victory? Adieu to Victory? If it is only 1200 pounds, how about Hollowed-out Victory?

The mind boggles. Well, OK, just my mind boggles.

[Vachon]

Jib Man, on Sep 27 2004, 06:24 PM, said:

I'm glad to see this discussion going again and agree with the proposal to keep the conversation more civilized.

That's a pretty interesting letter from Buddy Melges. I should point out that the addition of assymetrical spinnakers and carbon masts ended up being successful, because they could be retrofitted to existing hulls and because nearly everyone sailing A scows liked the changes.

Willie, Ruffian and anyone else associated with Victory-by-Design - I have a question. Can your new hull shape pass the above-mentioned litmus test?

Jib Man,

Won't the new Melges hull do the same thing? It obviously can't be "retrofitted" to the rest of the fleet.

[ILYAScow]

The transition to the asymmetric spinnaker and the carbon mast was really not as easy as one could be lead to believe. In regard to the sprits themselves in the beginning everyone was using different stuff, a few even had aluminum ones like on Burn's old boat ship/captain/crew. A common sprit finally came along a while later. Different diameters, materials, wall section etc.

As for masts this was interesting. The carbon sections had the Melges 30 section, the Melges 24 section, and finally the wound masts. If you started in the beginning you could have evolved through 3 sections x $13-15k = ~40kish. This is a steep investment to be competitive, not like a new hull but none the less expensive. The last retrofit also involves a chainplate modification for $5k which includes deckstepping, mast step etc. THis is on top of the mast upgrade for the older boats.

The next major modification for the A scow will be in the repostioning of the rudders as so to make the turbulance less and the tracking of the boat more superior. This will involve longer rudders different position, different angles. If you look at Victory the rudders are angled more similar to the boards and also more in line, they are also farther back towards the transom. This modication could yield a decent improvement over the standard Melges configuration. Better steering less drag. Again another change more money.

I feel bad for the A class they are getting hammered with no end in sight. This whole debate should not be strictly about the hull shape but about what is best in the long run for the class, the ILYA and sailors in general. One design is great if you keep the playing field level on all counts.

[ILYAScow]

Oh, as well the whole issue of spinnakers such as VMG's, whompers and .5 oz whompers, 100 degree blades and the like should be discussed as well. One has them all and many have none. This is a topic for Willie to dig into.

[WillieCrear]

Ruffian, on Sep 27 2004, 07:00 PM, said:

WillieCrear, on Sep 27 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

Hey Willie,

Just returned from a day sail on Victory. 76 degrees and wind at 15 from the south without a cloud in the sky. Hope you're jealous.

Ruffian

Now you have me stumped.

There was only one female on Victory yesterday (Susana Robinson), I am told, so you must be male.

From your earlier posts, which I researched: you don't own a boat now.

I have no clue as to your identity. Figuring out that Jib Man was Geoff Evans was easy by comparison.

Oh yes...jealous? Yes...when I look at Victory going upwind, higher and faster.

Jealous? Yes...when I see Victory break around the weather mark, and set those @#$%&%*# asymmetricals with that high sprit, and don't even come close to shrimping the chute.

Jealous? Yes...when I see Victory fall off onto a new tack, with perfect jib trim, every time, no matter who is trimming the jib, since she is self-tacking.

Jealous? Yes...when we are waiting around for enough wind to start, and the Victory crew is lounging on that larger-than-life strongback/keelson running down the center of their hull.

Jealous? Yes...when my own brother Dan says he's going to sail on Victory in 2004, but isn't interested in sailing on one of the old Melges man-eaters, including my 1985 Melges hull, Adieu.

Jealous? Yes...enough to make me want to build a new, carbon fiber, 1200 pound A scow, out of the Victory molds. Let's see here, a 650 pound advantage in weight over the current Victory hull...mebbe that's enough weight advantage to best Tom Burton (the jury is definitely out on that). Now all I need is 3 partners/syndicate members to defray the $90,000 cost of the new, Son of Victory.

And what will the new boat be named? Crikey, we got a problem already. The first one was Innisfree, the second Sacajawea, the most recent, defaulted to Adieu, the Chute name. Someone suggested Hollow Victory. How about Pyrrhic Victory? Maid of Victory? Total Victory? Son of Victory? Adieu to Victory? If it is only 1200 pounds, how about Hollowed-out Victory?

The mind boggles. Well, OK, just my mind boggles.

Willie,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I succeeded in making you jealous. It was my first time on Victory--amazing what can be accomplished by simply quality of execution. The mechanical advantages make every task easy even for an old cripple like myself. I crewed against Brad in 1968 & 69 on Gulliver (E boats) and his passion for sailing and making things function properly hasn't diminished in the past 36 years. I made him an offer for the boat but he wouldn't bite so I may be available for your carbon fiber project.

Cheers,

Ruffian[/QUOTE]


Ruffian, you should contact me to get on board this carbon fiber project as soon as it is practicable for you. 207.423.0061.

Cheers, Willie

[Ruffian]

WillieCrear, on Sep 27 2004, 04:24 PM, said:

Ruffian, you should contact me to get on board this carbon fiber project as soon as it is practicable for you. 207.423.0061.

Cheers, Willie

Willie,

Maybe Cayard and Coutts need to be brought up to speed on the carbon fiber project since they're fishing around for an AC series replacement. If they sailed it once they would probably be hooked. Just the cost savings in all those AC winches alone could get a fleet started. Whatya think?

Ruffian

[Jib Man]

Ruffian, don't take this personally but you really sound like a clown most of the time. Do you really think those guys are going to be interested in a boat that is only suitable for lake sailing?

[Ruffian]

Jib Man, on Sep 27 2004, 05:24 PM, said:

Ruffian, don't take this personally but you really sound like a clown most of the time. Do you really think those guys are going to be interested in a boat that is only suitable for lake sailing?

It was intended to be a joke. Probably a little lame. I'm not exactly the greatest comedian on the planet. Taking your critique personally? Now that's hilarious.

[Jib Man]

Vachon, on Sep 27 2004, 01:36 PM, said:

Jib Man, on Sep 27 2004, 06:24 PM, said:

I'm glad to see this discussion going again and agree with the proposal to keep the conversation more civilized.

That's a pretty interesting letter from Buddy Melges. I should point out that the addition of assymetrical spinnakers and carbon masts ended up being successful, because they could be retrofitted to existing hulls and because nearly everyone sailing A scows liked the changes.

Willie, Ruffian and anyone else associated with Victory-by-Design - I have a question. Can your new hull shape pass the above-mentioned litmus test?

Jib Man,

Won't the new Melges hull do the same thing? It obviously can't be "retrofitted" to the rest of the fleet.

Hi Vachon,

No, the new Melges mold is the same shape as the old one. As such, no one expects the new Melges boats to have the same kind of speed advantage that Victory-by-Design has.

Only the wiggles have been removed, and those were taken out of the old boats by hand anyway.

[emoney]

With all due respect to melges, we've seen them 'take the wiggles out' of the one design scow molds before - presumably because the molds were in bad shape. they resulted in the 1998 MC Scow, the 1998 E Scow, and the 1999 C scow. These are all now referred to as the 'new' boats and boats of those ages and newer are a must if you want to be competitive. I hardly think the new A scow will be any different, especially because of the fact that the scantlings are so loose as to accomodate robinson's boat.

[Jib Man]

ILYAScow, on Sep 27 2004, 02:37 PM, said:

The transition to the asymmetric spinnaker and the carbon mast was really not as easy as one could be lead to believe. In regard to the sprits themselves in the beginning everyone was using different stuff, a few even had aluminum ones like on Burn's old boat ship/captain/crew. A common sprit finally came along a while later. Different diameters, materials, wall section etc.

As for masts this was interesting. The carbon sections had the Melges 30 section, the Melges 24 section, and finally the wound masts. If you started in the beginning you could have evolved through 3 sections x $13-15k = ~40kish. This is a steep investment to be competitive, not like a new hull but none the less expensive. The last retrofit also involves a chainplate modification for $5k which includes deckstepping, mast step etc. THis is on top of the mast upgrade for the older boats.

The next major modification for the A scow will be in the repostioning of the rudders as so to make the turbulance less and the tracking of the boat more superior. This will involve longer rudders different position, different angles. If you look at Victory the rudders are angled more similar to the boards and also more in line, they are also farther back towards the transom. This modication could yield a decent improvement over the standard Melges configuration. Better steering less drag. Again another change more money.

I feel bad for the A class they are getting hammered with no end in sight. This whole debate should not be strictly about the hull shape but about what is best in the long run for the class, the ILYA and sailors in general. One design is great if you keep the playing field level on all counts.

ILYAScow,

Regarding asymmetric spinnakers and carbon masts, no one split from the fleet over those issues, and everyone ended up happy quite soon after the appearance of these modifications. I heard of no one who burned through three different carbon masts so why would you mention such crap?

Regarding rudders, it should be mentioned that foil rudders were implemented a few years ago and everyone loves them. I like the idea of trying them in a new position, but I would bet that it won't work as good as Victory because the combination of hull shape with rudder placement is part of the magic on Victory. Without the modified hull shape, the new rudder placement simply won't be as good.

Quote

I feel bad for the A class they are getting hammered with no end in sight.

Actually there are some very interesting new developments. I understand that two-start regattas are being strongly considered. It is also very interesting that the Victory camp appears to be ready to make new boats from their mold.

Willie, would you be so kind to inform us about what is happening?

[Jib Man]

emoney, on Sep 28 2004, 07:05 AM, said:

With all due respect to melges, we've seen them 'take the wiggles out' of the one design scow molds before - presumably because the molds were in bad shape. they resulted in the 1998 MC Scow, the 1998 E Scow, and the 1999 C scow. These are all now referred to as the 'new' boats and boats of those ages and newer are a must if you want to be competitive. I hardly think the new A scow will be any different, especially because of the fact that the scantlings are so loose as to accomodate robinson's boat.

emoney, each of the examples that you mentioned definitely did NOT involve a change in the hull shape. There were lots of other go-fast changes, but they had nothing to do with taking wiggles out or different hull shapes.

[emoney]

Jib Man, on Sep 28 2004, 07:08 AM, said:

emoney, on Sep 28 2004, 07:05 AM, said:

With all due respect to melges, we've seen them 'take the wiggles out' of the one design scow molds before - presumably because the molds were in bad shape.  they resulted in the 1998 MC Scow, the 1998 E Scow, and the 1999 C scow. These are all now referred to as the 'new' boats and boats of those ages and newer are a must if you want to be competitive.  I hardly think the new A scow will be any different, especially because of the fact that the scantlings are so loose as to accomodate robinson's boat.

emoney, each of the examples that you mentioned definitely did NOT involve a change in the hull shape. There were lots of other go-fast changes, but they had nothing to do with taking wiggles out or different hull shapes.

right, there were no hull shape changes, however they incorporated changes in the hull that were not retrofittable to the fleet at the time.

My point is not to distinguish between which characteristics are appropriate to change when obsoleting a group of boats and which characteristics are not appropriate to change when obsoleting a group of boats. It was to indicate that, right or wrong, historically changes that Melges has made in the past in other fleets are very similar to the changes that Mr. Robinson has made in the A scow, i.e. non-retrofittable, somewhat unannounced, and frustratingly fast, encouraging competitive people to buy new boats. The difference is this time Melges didn't make the change, and the A fleet doesn't want to buy new boats.

There are a lot more people with a lot less money than the A fleet that have seen there boats devalued by changes melges has made in new model years. In response they have all worked to tighten up their scantlings - they haven't run from the ILYA and made new fleets.

[Jib Man]

emoney, on Sep 28 2004, 07:28 AM, said:

Jib Man, on Sep 28 2004, 07:08 AM, said:

emoney, on Sep 28 2004, 07:05 AM, said:

With all due respect to melges, we've seen them 'take the wiggles out' of the one design scow molds before - presumably because the molds were in bad shape.  they resulted in the 1998 MC Scow, the 1998 E Scow, and the 1999 C scow. These are all now referred to as the 'new' boats and boats of those ages and newer are a must if you want to be competitive.  I hardly think the new A scow will be any different, especially because of the fact that the scantlings are so loose as to accomodate robinson's boat.

emoney, each of the examples that you mentioned definitely did NOT involve a change in the hull shape. There were lots of other go-fast changes, but they had nothing to do with taking wiggles out or different hull shapes.

right, there were no hull shape changes, however they incorporated changes in the hull that were not retrofittable to the fleet at the time.

My point is not to distinguish between which characteristics are appropriate to change when obsoleting a group of boats and which characteristics are not appropriate to change when obsoleting a group of boats. It was to indicate that, right or wrong, historically changes that Melges has made in the past in other fleets are very similar to the changes that Mr. Robinson has made in the A scow, i.e. non-retrofittable, somewhat unannounced, and frustratingly fast, encouraging competitive people to buy new boats. The difference is this time Melges didn't make the change, and the A fleet doesn't want to buy new boats.

There are a lot more people with a lot less money than the A fleet that have seen there boats devalued by changes melges has made in new model years. In response they have all worked to tighten up their scantlings - they haven't run from the ILYA and made new fleets.

You have some great points emoney. It's hard if not impossible to argue with that.