On the E, I think only one is curent squad.
What about AUIU?

AUIU - misspelled version of AIUI = "As I Understand It".....'cause I thought I may very well have got the situation all screwy (as I had)!

Now I AIUI, thanks for the education.

Have a real screwy day!

DB sez:


What? You do't mean to suggest that we could survive without the input of the US Govt, do you? And the thought of a national body that could dedicate itself to sailboat racing instead of all the other stuff that US Sailing has taken on, the mind boggles.

Scuttle the whole damn mess. Why stop at sailing?

I agree with most you have said. The local T fleet is mostly made up of punters who have never embarked on an Olympic or off shore campaign. With the price of boats and lack of in Oz, most boats running around are upgraded 15 to 20 year old platforms (still very nice boats to sail). There are still a few very good non pro sailors racing in the local fleet however. Not at the same level as Bundy and Forbes but they were at the top of the most profesional cat class in the world.

Would Willy, Stalky, Macca, Bruce McArthur, Lovig ect be at the level they are now without their experience in the class campaigning and training with some of the greatest cat sailors.

Bundy and Forbes set the benchmark in Australia (and the World) They needed competition in Oz to assist them with their campaign and therfore were not afraid to share techneques and tuning tips. Whilst this has improved the local fleet alot, the local fleet were not full pro and did not have the funds to compete. Therefore the only real place to gain top large fleet experience is in Europe. I belive this is the same with all Olympic class boats.

Localy the T fleet has benifited from their help. Fletch has also helped with on water coaching and tips for some of the local fleet in a small way. The local fleet may not get anywhere near the same level of assistance from Fletch but what has been given has realy assisted some of the fleet. All this help would not have been available if Sailing was not part of the Olympics.

I have learnt more from Bundy, Forbes, Fletch from the few times a year we see them than the rest of my 22 years of sailing. At the moment, some of OZ most tallented ex T sailors are racing in the A class and F-18 fleets. Many of the best sailors from other cat classes have also moved into these classes recently. Hence why these fleets are so strong.

For me as with many OZ sailors, I have neither the funds or the time to launch a full time Olympic campaign in Europe. To sacrafice a career and your financial future on a gamble to represent at an Olympics, which most campaigners will never achieve is too large of a gamble to take. I am fast aproaching 30 and the decisions I make now in my career will determine my well being in the future and when I retire.

I have learnt a lot from the Tornado Class and have now orderd a Capricorn so as to join the F-18 fleet where the fleet numbers and competition is higher (Localy). The up coming worlds in Oz is very exciting. After this I plan to also purchase a Marstrom T and return to the T class. With an Olympic campaign not in my sights, I will be happy with campaingning the F-18 and later again the T at a local level whilst attending limited off shore championships. If you do not focus on Olympic success but race localy whilst travelling overseas to International regattas, that in itself can be a very rewarding experience. For me, sailing is a serious hobby but just a hobby. Not a career.......

I am not prepared to put my life on hold for many years in order to achieve what may never happen.

When I was growing up, I fantasized about representing in the Olympics. For many years my chosen sport for this was Tae Kwon Do and due to injury and hate to say it...... better competitors, I never came close. I then turned to sailing and once again......... Better sailors, funds necessary and a commitment to put your life and career on hold.......... For me it is a time too grow up and look at things realisticly.

Australian sailing should abandon funding of the olympic classes. Then we can start to direct funding to the club level of sailing in order to revive what is a great Australian sport. As an egalitarian sport in an egalitarian nation we have a governing body which acts in an increasingly elitist fashion. By abandoning the currently massive olympic expenditure we can direct funds to young sailors and the opportunity for training to all clubs, regardless of size or skill level. We can improve accessibility to the sport for entry level participants, and build stronger, more competitive fleets, resulting in more future champions.

Where are the kids? In Australia there is a massive hole in the sailing demographic between the ages of 10 and 25. Why are the kids who sail for a few years as youngsters not able to continue to sail and enjoy their racing? Because it’s too expensive. The proliferation of expensive OD dinghy classes aimed at filling the pockets of yet another manufacturer with the approval of the Yachting Austrailia as a "training dinghy" is appalling. When a competitive 2nd hand sabot costs $4000 something is wrong! How can any but the most well heeled parents consider dropping $11000 for a new Flying 11 for their kids in a fleet of 5 or 6 others for a couple of seasons until they grow out of it?

The YA should be using the money currently going to a handful of Olympic hopefuls to help get and keep the average kids sailing. What about funding a couple of club boats a year, in a popular class decided by the club, to be allocated to kids who show a seasons commitment. After 2 years the older club boats must be sold off to the member families and 2 more new boats supplied.

How about training programs for clubs? Provide a powerboat and coach once a month for every club who can come up with six sailors who want to improve. Surely the resources can be found to implement a plan like this, if we stop the massive flow of cash to the olympic movement.

What about subsidising family memberships at Sailing Clubs? Most clubs are amateur/volunteer organizations that cant afford to subsidise memberships themselves, so how about a little help for new members? Most parents dread the idea of $500 a year in membership fees, when they see that coming to add to the expense of the boats, they take the kids to play soccer instead.

The grass roots of sailing in this country is a disgrace. The huge fleets of 20-30 years ago are a distant memory and it’s all because the governing body can’t see past the end of the olympic funding trough its nose is stuck in. Thank the government for the idea that funding should be tied directly to olympic campaigns, and the spineless Yachting Australia for going along with it. Encourage the kids, make it easier on their parents to be involved and the champions will come naturally in the future.

The present situation of having to go to Europe to sail regularly in a fleet of decent size and quality could have been avoided with a focus on the roots of the sport instead of the leaves. Now the roots are almost dead and what is being done about it? Training is becoming even more insular and detached from the rest of the sailing community. The olympic ideal is dying, witness the recent poor results of 2004. Not for lack of effort or funds, so what is lacking then? Foresight and Leadership.

I still reckon clubs have to take on more responsibility. Sure YA could do better and we all know this.

Our Yacht provides boat, coaching and racing for less than $500 a season. This in 470, spiral, F11 and some others. The club was on the brink and did get help, but the training side had propped the club for a while, now there is a champ fleet of 70+.

Perhaps what has to be realised is that the smaller clubs will go the way of so many over volunteer sports/groups. I think it's sad, but there are a number of reasons for it these days.

I know in the early 80's we did all our own coaching/training, rarely heard anything from YANSW and never from AYF. Out of that came a couple of multiple olympians (and Funky), one a medalist and both pretty well thought of these days. They got out there and did there stuff.

If my kids want it I will do what ever I can to give them the chance, sure I would like the best, but if they put it in they can get there.

While we're at it lets look at development classes and what they bring us versus OD olympic classes.

The fact that the IOC is contemplating dropping sailing should be taken as an opportunity for sailing to stop concentrating on expensive OD olympic classes. Then we can get back to building a faster boat than the next guy (even if it takes years to learn how to keep it upright) and lose all the olympic classes with their "fund another Porsche for the manufacturer" supply monopolies.

The directing of funds toward olympic OD classes does nothing for the furthering of sailboat design and very little for the vast majority of sailors. How can refining a Laser or 49er within a set of rules so tight you can't even choose who makes your sails or spars help other sailors or classes? Finns? 470's? Old hat, what’s left to refine? Tornados? Being competitive is too expensive and therefore out of the reach of 99% of the class, so in comparison to other cat classes, virtually no one races them.

Where does innovation come from? New ideas in sailboat racing? Development classes such as I14's 18's and F18's, Open 60's, and IRC/PHRF rating boats. Think about it, water ballast, canting keels, retractable bowsprits, snuffers, wings and self adjusting rigs are all the result of forward thinking development classes. Look at what the International Moths have achieved in the last few years! OD and olympic classes? Stuff all!

Innovation in sailing craft design is driven by development classes inspite of all the funding olympic OD classes receive from the IOC. The most entertaining olympic class is a sterilised version of 100 years development by skiff sailors on sydney harbour.

Steve, good to hear about the success of your club. Can a group version of this be rotated through some of the smaller clubs that struggle for members? We shouldnt let these clubs fail. They are the life blood of our sport. What of small regional clubs in remote areas?

The youth training you refer to in the 70's and 80's (mostly in MJ's and F11's?) also produced a few world champs and if it could be done without the YA's help back then, we should be able to far better today.

But back to membership, without increasing the accessability of our sport we will continue to suffer and clubs will continue to be closed or turned into restaraunts.

Do you know if the YA is helping DSC after the fire? I'm curious to know if its on thier radar.

I don't disagree with all the OD v development, it's a hopeless debate. I love NS14 and Elliott 7, reckon moths a cool and 49er something else, I will never forget our ride down the harbour on an 18 - we stayed upright for a whole race that day too- or blowing out an ear drum the next day. I love the A and reckon the T is amazing.

! just happen to believe that we need the Olympics and we need no to blame somebody else, we need to be responsible.

Skill level increases, and you would be surprised with the refinement that still goes into all those classes. I never liked the 470, but after having a disapointing NS national we went for a blast on my young crews 470 and had a ball, and was interested in sailing it more.

There are so many avenues for inovation, it won't go away.

B, I would be surprised if YA did much for DSC, Chris249 is the one for that. On them though, I reckon it could be good for them. You know, what dosen't kill you makes you stronger.

Good luck DSC.

We ain't going to see the 80's again, unless the new parents get their kids enjoying the sport and putting in their time to coach, lift boats, rig boats, etc.. This is where you will find a cliub that will survive/ Have a look at NorthbridgeSC article in June Aust Sailing, I brushed over it, but went back and read it the other day, that's what we need, abreviated, volunteers/parents supporting the efforts of kids.

Last season was my first and the yacht, because I had an E7 (Uncles) that I needed to park in the yard with the other 10 we have, so I had to join. The club where I was for all my sail life is suffering for a number of reason, the yacht continues in the other direction.

I feel for the clubs that are fighting, but it's no different in what the NRL, AFL, NBL and soccer have experienced over the last 10 years. Some clubs will make it back, big time, others, sorry, will perish.

A couple of years ago MHYC was in a pretty tight situation, they seem to be going ok now, even the big ones have a fight. Don't wait for YA's

Good luck with your local too!

Steve you have galvanised my thoughts, and what i am trying to say is in the context of division of YA funds I think it is irresponsible to go after immediate olympic glory when small clubs where kids learn how to sail are struggling under increasing insurance costs and finding it hard to retain members.

I am reponsible for my own sailing program and am a bit to far gone for the kind of training I am advocating here. But I find it terribly depressing when I visit old haunts to find them a shadow of their former selves, in terms of sailing numbers and opportunity for kids to race kids.

Maybe I'm just living in the past but I think the IOC dumping sailing could be the catalyst for a big change in attitudes within the sport.

B, to be honest, I reckon if it wasn't for the Olympics and what is in place, the yacht might not be as strong as it is. They expanding the youth programe to keep up. They love the the 470, F11 was never strong but they are getting good use, 29ers are comming back too.

Good on you for your effort, mate. This is exactly what I mean about the new "volunteer parents". They don't need to have come from having been spoilt too though!

Again all I can say is from my experience we never had the support that we think we need, we got it done by ourseleves with little other imput apart from parents and friends.

bunabaroo,

Comparing the SMOD Olympic boats such as the Laser and 49er to the Tornado is like comparing apples to oranges.

The Tornado whilst an OD is still open to quiet a bit off development. The class is not retricted in sail manufacture or builder. A competitor can have any part of the boat built by anybody and even them self.

In the cat world, the Tornado is leading the way in sail design and systems such as spinnaker retrieval systems and general running gear. The moment the Ts adopted the spinnaker and T sailors campaigned in the F-18 class the technology and sailing techniques filtered down into the F-18 class. If it wasn't for the Tornado class the F-18 and other spinnaker cat classes would still be running tramp mounted spinnaker bags and non self tacking jibs. More efficent spinnaker cuts have directly come from the Tornado class also.

Secondly, sailing techniques such as the Wild Thing and the current downwind trapezing style have all filtered down from the Tornado. With professional sailors working day in and day out with sail makers, rig developers and coaches, the largest advances have come from the Olympic classes (in the cat world atleast). The development classes do not have the same $$$$$, time or resources to compete.

This is one area where Olympic sailing has influenced other sailing classes and non Olympic sailors.

Thanks TA, i thought the snuffer had come up to tornado's but i stand corrected.
I didnt know the T were so free with regards to development.

Is it not possible that in a class like the F18, where an owner builder can compete at much more reasonable cost than in T's, that development will be just as fast and improvements as effective because of the sheer numbers involved rather than throwing money at it?

Most of the development in the T class comes from profesional sail development programs and working with coaching staff. It is very hard for any amature competitor to compete at this level. Yes development still occurs in other classes, but not at the same pace and not with quiet the same success. With Olympic campaigners the careers and hundreds of thousands of dollars per athlete are on the line. Whilst amature campaigners work on developing and testing their boats and techniques on weekends and after work on some week days........ The pros are spending countless hours when we are at work with unlimited resources. Coaches, sail makers, psychologists, dietitians and marketing staff ect.

Sailing at the elite level whilst benifits are filtering down to average sailors, has probably reached a damaging level. To compete at the highest level now requires so much of a sacrafice and dedication that it is only obtainable to a select few. The days of the Olympics being for Amature athletes has long past.

Agreed TA.

With the loss of amateur status i think a lot of the allure has gone too. The olympics used to be viewed as attainable but not now. The gap has grown too large. Is there any way to address the situation? I don't know.....

Steve AUS and TA, thanks for the input.

rant over.....

[edited this one cos ive posted enough on this already.....]

If it was easy enough for everyone to do no one would want to do it.

Don’t you think that, for the top sailors, the allure of the Olympics is exactly the fact that it is such an unattainable goal?

That’s why people want Olympic medals because they represent an almost impossible level of achievement.

Totally agree with Bunabaroo about the need for grass-roots support, and just about everything he said, apart from the fact that I totally disagree about the problems being down to the concentration on ODs. I agree the Olympics are out of touch now but perhaps that's balanced by the fact thast those who want to go to the top now know exactly where they'll find the best.

Some of the OD classes are stupidly expensive (I totally agree the F11 etc are out of hand although my nephew has just got into one for about $5k and it's apparently a good boat) but some of them are cheap. The Radial, for example, would allow a sailor to spend just $1000 or so to finish top 10 in NSW and top 20 of 70-100 in the national titles IF they were prepared to train hard enough.

Was it really the expensive 18s that created much? How much did the 18s really create? Assymetric spinnakers and perhaps high-tech construction is about it. They didn't create wings, lightweight boats, trapping from wings, chine boats, etc etc etc. It was the smaller, cheaper development classes that introduced all those things, but the 18s made a lot of noise when they finally got around to adopting the ideas from Rs, Moths etc so we think the 18s created these ideas.

The two biggest dinghy clubs in NSW (I think) come from each side of the spectrum. One if the full-on massive skiff club with 25,000 or so social members, but the other is a fully amateur-run club with no paid staff and only two boats faster than a Laser - but it gets 100+ starters per week......in fact we don't even have a clubhouse anympre thanks to some dickheads playing matches (arrests are apparently imminent) but we'll still get 100+ starters next year. Each club had two members in the Athens games. So it seems that you CAN do it both ways - the amateur way or the big-money way - as long as you care for the grass roots in each case.

The depressing part is that I don't think either club got any support from the AYF at all.

I think the intimidating part for sailors going for the Olympics is the costs of campaigning. It's just too expensive and too much to give up. Sure as we have noted, these guys are far better funded, but they aren't getting rich either.

I was chatting to Pagey recently and talking about the money and I was blown away to find out they were still paying for their sails. Now these guys were the No1 ranked 470 team in the World for 3(?) years. Tell me any major sport were the World No 1 has to pay for their gear.

B as to the juniors coming through, I think part of the problem is the fact all boats are fibreglass now. before we would all fang around on home built boats that our folks would knock up in the back yard. technology has a cost.

See Chris, you got it worked out already. Who needs the YAs at the grassroots anyway.
The clubs that are prepared to do the effort will succede.

I don't care what's in the Olympics, it is the Olympics. That's why the girls sail the Yngling, not becuse they love the boat, same as Laser and formerly Europe, Malcom was already successful in 18's now he's going again in the 470. Same for Nathan who can probably sail anything. It's why Nicho tried doing it in a Tornado, as soon as 49er was in he was there.

A lot of people thought it was amazing when Nicho kept winning 505, but I bet he, or those who competed against them were. My point is they were brought up on good systems and they were dedicated, how much did they get at grassroots. Same Micheal B, and I'm pretty sure Darren Bundock. Just abpout all the tops got there with dedication, luck and skill. I bet the first boats those guys had weren't straight out of the box new things. Micheal's Spiral wasn't the newest, but he made it quick. Toddy wasn't the best, but he got there and is still involved at the level.

I wish there was more, but there isn't and we are kidding if we think it will change. The club's that get out and get results will be the first to see any extra "grassroots" support, not the suffering clubs that are struggling.

geez, that's enough, so sorry. I'll leave it alone, and go and bask in more Aussie power, Bangladesh must have know it was comming.

Whoops, you're right, that wasn't exactly logical.....totally dumb is more like it

Maybe as you point out, we don't NEED support for the grass roots, but it would be nice to have it, and maybe if there was more support around there would be more succesful clubs.

JFunk, maybe there's a plus side to 'glass boats because aren't the well-built ones (the cored ones especially???) very long lasting? So if associations ensure there is no obsolescence in the OD classes, can't we build up masses of cheaper boats in the long run and therefore allow people to get into the sport cheaply?

I've really noticed recently how much kids/students vary in their approach to the "cool" factor in gear; those who are worried about being trendy are soooo damn picky it's bizarre but there are many who aren't worried about it at all.

And those are going to be the ones who can appreciate each increment of speed and skill that they can develop.

If my kids want to start they will do it in a clanger MJ (probably). I will do what I can to make it alright, but they will have to show in it before anything ritzy happens. In fact I'm thinking of getting a second clanger, and then there's mates can have ago.

I like it when we are on the same bit of water 249.

Funky, I believe you are right, but at the same time I also think we let this to busy/much to do life stop us from continuing what happened in our young days. I will know in the next few years anyway.

Gotta agree, that's how I got started and it did me no harm.

But more importantly, it is the social situation surrounding the sailing that counts. It must be fun and competitive at the same time. It takes whole bunch of like-minded pepole to make that happen. I think I have found that at my local Sailing Club, and so my kids (8 and 6 years old) are booked in for next season.

You are probably right Chris.

By the wat Steve, how did you go at Easter in the Elliot?

the really interesting thing about this post is the number of people who think sailing should be dropped

got to be a message there for adminstrators

either people think the olympics are irrelevant or they are really piss#$ at the administrators about lack of support for ordinary clubs

Sailing will be part of the Olympics, no problems..! Spoke to an official last night and whilst they will do the vote thing there are too many countries that have an interest and they will always vote to keep it.

Won the first race and...

Perhaps we need a bloody poll.

Is it that clear cut?

umm, I don't think administrators would get it anyway.

would be HUGE for AUS sailing if dropped, then YA may cocentarte on our domestic fast boats and non-olymp fleets, like here 1 finn and 3 Solings , so fucking what. no-one sails 470's anyway< here = SLOW, why the concentration om .001% of the scene

Hey Gybset,

We have 4-5 470s racing in ACT, and the money still wouldn't be there. Again the good classes and clubs are doing it by themselves.