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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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  1. 22 points
    Hardly hollow, they sailed within the rules, WOXI didn't. If WOXI had NOT been protested THEIR's would have been the hollow AND undeserved victory. I really don't get the concept that winning by breaking the rules is cool and that winning by exercising your rights under the rules is not cool? No wonder our sport is not booming. SS
  2. 18 points
  3. 15 points
    Forgive me if I'm repeating, I only went back a couple of pages & people were busy measuring themselves so I gave up.
  4. 15 points
    Hm. I should write an article about how dangerous the wet boats are and how we now will talk about wether men are up for these conditions....
  5. 15 points
    There really are some stupid subjective, ingnorantly written or emotionally charged comments here. OK -Time to put this to bed... 1. The incident - A poorly executed leebow? Hesitation during a cross? Hesitation in a slam dunk? Poor on board comms between the after guard? Who knows? Who cares? We've all been there. People make mistakes. Get over it. 2 The rules - Rule 13, simple. Only Rules 13, 14 and rule 16.1 are considered. The jury concluded that LDVC did not change course, so 16.1 can be ruled out. LDVC acted to avoid contact, and there was no collision, so rule 14 out.They concluded that LDVC had to take action to avoid while WOXI was tacking. That's all. No point in discussing rule 10 now. That expired when WOXI passed HTW. No point in discussing rule 15. That only occurs after WOXI reached close-hauled. No point in discussing 16.2. At no time was WOXI sailing to pass astern of LDVC. 3. Not taking a penalty - That is the right of any boat. If they believe that they did not break a rule, or were not sure because it was close (and judging by this discussion it was), then they have a right to take their chances in the protest room. This does not represent poor sportsmanship or even foolishness. It is in the rules for them to do. Both parties (including WOXI agree that it was close, with WOXI crew proposing a 50/50 situation). If they knew they had broken a rule, then yes, we could question sportsmanship. In this case, no. Move along. In reflection, they may have misjudged how close it was, and kick themselves for that. We may all have acted differently. It probably was a poor risk/reward judgement. However, at the time, her decision to continue was justified and within the rules and principals of sportsmanship, since they thought they had not broken a rule, or were not convinced enough to take a penalty at the time. Her right to make that call. 4 The Protest - Nothing wrong with LDVC's decision to take this to the room. It is a fundimental principal of all competitors to enforce the rules. That's all she did. Not doing that is possibly more destructive to the sport. Furthermore, if you believe in the rules and that they are a part of the sport, then you should fully support her decision to go ahead (for whatever motives - win, principals, morals, sponsor pressure, etc...) with the protest. Both boats agreed to be bound by the rules; those rules include the protest and penalty procedure. 5. The Time Penalty - Of course it needs to be more than 5 minutes in order to be a penalty! Duh! The penalty must be in line with the penalty system of the event. In the SIs for this event specify penalties ranging from 5 minutes minimum to DSQ. In between those extremes are 20% for not submitting a declaration, 30% for an offshore breach of Part 2 and OCS, 40% as maximum time penalty, and then DSQ for the most heinous of crimes. It stands to reason that the time penalty for an inshore breach of Part 2 should be somewhere between not submitting a declaration on time, and the offshore Part 2. So 20-30% of position in her division. That's what the jury did. Her time penalty worsened her IRC Div 0 position by about 20-30% of all the IRC Div 0 boats. Discretionary Penalties (DPs) are becoming more popular. There is even a new scoring code for it. The principal suggests that not all rule breaches are the same. That seems sensible. Good practice is still being developed. If DP is to be used, Race Organisers and Juries need to have a clear penalty structure for DPs, which is fair and well known. Many events already have one, which they publish to competitors. In this S2H, the SIs were a little ambiguous. Maybe more structure and guidance could be given on the penalty system. 6. Winning in the room - WTF? No one has won in the room. The incident took place on the water in this case. Those who think that this is sea-lawyering or 'winning in the room' are normally the ones who either don't know all the rules or don't fully respect the rules. If they did, they would know that in this sport, there is no way to resolve some on-the-water conflicts, other than going to the room. They would know that the rules are designed to give competitors the chance to exonerate OR to have the decision reached by an independent panel. They would know that not enforcing the rules (including the 'Oh, forget about it!' approach) is not good for the sport. 7. WOXI's Elapsed Time - Her RACE Elapsed Time is the time she took in this 'event/race/competition'. In this race it was 01:09:15:24. That is 33 minutes behind LDVC. There is NO OTHER elapsed time. End Of. 8. Race Record - Read it carefully...the 'RACE' record. That is a record set during an edition of Sydney to Hobart Race. The race record is only held by a boat who has sailed the course correctly, and complied with the rules or taken penalties under the rules for any breaches made during the race. WOXI did not break any race record this year. Unlucky. LDVC did. 9. 'The Fastest Crossing Between Sydney and Hobart' - If someone wants to go and make a seperate unrelated trophy for 'The Fastest Crossing Between Sydney and Hobart', then go ahead and give it to WOXI! Well done her. See how long it lasts though, before people abuse that trophy's lack of moderation. The organised S2H race event is the moderator of that record for a reason. It sets bounds within we can be comfortable that a boat has acheived that feat fairly and measurably. In which case WOXI did not gain any known record. 10. The messages this sends to kids and non-sailors - That sailing is a complex sport. That even the best make mistakes. That if you break a rule you may (and should) be penalised. That even long races can be so close that a single penalty can make the difference between winning and losing. 11. WOXI attitude after the decision? - Whatever! Of course they will be disappointed! They thought they were right! Someone always goes away dissatisfied after a hearing. Moral win? Fine; let them enjoy the fact that they sailed very fast, if that is what they want to measure their success by. Let's face it, they did sail fast and well. Just from the 'race' point of view they did not beat LDVC (see #7). Nothing in that interview suggested WOXI were not accepting the decision. That's about it. Well done to LDVC. Well done to Ichi Ban and all the others who won divisions, got on the podium or achieved a personal best.
  6. 14 points
    This whole mess sucks. I fully respect the crew of Vestas, in this iteration and as Alvimedica they have proven themselves as totally competent and responsible seafarers. Thousands of miles without incident, when others were capsizing, running aground, breaking shit, dropping sails overboard and getting injured, Enright and Towhill competed and arrived without drama or needing repairs. I would not jump to the conclusion that they are negligent bozos, in fact of all the crews in this race, I would assume the opposite. This must have been an extraordinary situation. The damage to Vestas 11th Hour Racing was not trivial, yet they remained on station and assisted in the rescue. That's a pretty big hole in the bow of a boat and hanging around for several hours with a seaway running takes some courage. A bad situation, but I think Mark and the boys acquitted themselves with honor, which is the best you can hope for. The Chinese captain was probably completely baffled by a sailing vessel closing on him at 18 to 20 knots, probably from an unexpected direction. Most of the traffic around busy ports is in outbound and inbound lanes and is comparatively slow moving. This provides a great deal of predictability. A racing sailboat will come from a different angle and will change heading randomly ( at least to a non sailing observer.). A Volvo 65 is more like a flying saucer than any boat he has probably ever seen, it closed on him faster than he could believe and ran right over him. If he had gear out, his maneuverability was probably limited. "Here I am fishing where I usually fish, the way I usually fish. I'm just trying to do my fucking job and this space ship shows up out of nowhere , runs right the fuck over us, sinks my boat and kills one of my crew. What the fuck?" Hindsight is 20:20. But some of this could have been thought through. What value does an after midnight in port finish provide? During daylight it would be nice, but at 0dark30? My thought is that you should " finish racing" at the point where ships take on pilots, and have the race boats proceed to the dock under port control. You could require that they arrive in the order of their rank so all the spectacle is preserved...... but you don't have sportsmen competing where others are just going about their day : which is kind of like playing a football game in a crowded mall at Christmas time. SHC
  7. 14 points
    Seriously. Not like Comanche surprised them with a protest when they got to Hobart. That flag went up in Sydney immediately after. Don't blame Spithill for being desperate to win. Blame your afterguard for being stupid twice AND arrogant. Spithill had no way of knowing if Comanche or WOXI would finish first when he protested. And it didn't matter. Break the rules, do your turns. Doesn't matter if you finish first, last or in between.
  8. 14 points
    So with the smoke starting to clear I thought it appropriate to reveal our feelings with regard to the above Rule 69 hand grenade we were willing to pull the pin on pending a IJ outcome. That outcome is to hand now with WOXI being stripped of its title. This was a Plan B in the event the IJ didn't rule accordingly commensurate with the protest and in a open and transparent manner. Further to the above we decided to capture more reciepants of a 3rd party Rule 69 Protest. World Sailing by their own amendments widened our standing, so we took advantage of it to include every party including Australian Sailing, the CYCA, the Jury and Team WOXI itself. The latter made us nervous but not enough to leave them out. On account of tomorrow being the last working day before the last boat finished and being time barred, drafts of all documents were complete. That was a big undertaking alone. The actual outcome now renders our Plan B to history, but our feelings aren't what you think. Our first reaction was not one of euphoria with the IJ ruling, but one of feeling great sadness for the WOXI team and their individuals. Their investment and commitment over years to the sport with results many just pray for, including this race (maybe their last) where they had the fastest boat on the course have, by their own hand been now blown up. I for one was very impressed WOXI used an ability to drive at times up 10 degrees deeper than Comanche and that covered for things like sail damage etc. So all we are left now is to dwell upon our motivation for being ready to drop a Rule 69 grenade on world sailing and what may transpire after pulling the pin. To be frank we were scared knowing after pulling the pin, we appreciated we had no control over anything after doing that. That aside we know our motivation for being willing to drop a grenade is intact and now strengthened by the IJ's ruling I think. Hypotheticaly two kids will trundle their respective Optis down the ramp this weekend. One will be a Club shitter with maybe a socio/economically challenged family supporting their kid to follow his sailing dream. The other will have the newest gear, the kid will be wearing sunglasses that cost more than a African nations GDP and his boat lives at home in a humidifier container. His helicopter father BTW drives the RO insane when he is not overseas on a business trip with his secretary in tow. After today's decision the disadvantaged kid simply looks at the TV news about the S2H and says Dad; "It doesn't matter how much money one has, how powerful they think they are, the rules are the rules aren't they?" Dad sipping on a beer simply says "Yep". Today's decision to strip WOXI advanced sailing far more than many think.
  9. 14 points
    Did my best. Not allowed to stream anything with "moving images" at all once the exclusion zone is in place which is why I can only do audio. Merry Christmas all - will put all the interviews up individually today.
  10. 13 points
    I spent a bit of time having a look at the Hong Hong Marine Accident Investigation and Shipping Security Policy Branch site. They provide access to reports and statistics of accidents here. Since they investigate accidents of all HK registered vessels there are accidents outside HK waters as well. But most seem to be HK waters accidents. Like accident investigations elsewhere, they don't lay blame, and act to find facts, contributory factors, and make recommendations. Apportion of blame is for courts. It seems that most incidents do not make it to court. In general one would expect that the public prosecutor would need to be satisfied that there was a good chance criminal negligence was involved in order to lay charges, or that another party wanted to take civil action for damages. If either of these happened the MAISSPB report might come into play, although this is not a given. Some countries disallow reports being used in actions. I don't know about HK. Reports of incidents seem to take about a year to complete. Looking at a few collisions between fishing vessels and other vessels the conclusions from the investigation are pretty repetitive. Mostly they conclude that both boats failed to keep adequate lookout and thus breached the COLREGS. In most respects this is hard to duck. The investigations look at the situation and conclude that no matter what the circumstances (which might include a storm, rain, fog) both boats should have adapted to the conditions and the accident should have been avoidable. For instance, from The collision between the Hong Kong registered vessel “Shin Chun” and the Taiwanese fishing vessel on the approaching road of Kaohsiung, Taiwan on 29 February 2016 The investigation found that the main contributory factors of the accident were the failure of both vessels to maintain a proper look-out in compliance with the requirements of rule 5 of COLREGS (Look-out). Consequently, both vessels did not realize the imminent risk of collision before the collision. The fishing vessel, being the give-way vessel in a cross situation, did not take any action to avoid the collision. The container vessel, being the stand-on vessel in a crossing situation, did not take her own action to avoid collision in an ample time while the give-way vessel did not take proper avoiding action. Or this report, where a fishing vessel hit a smaller pleasure craft with loss of life. Most reports have a very similar tone and conclusions. Mostly I think this gives us a clue about what the investigation's conclusions will look like.
  11. 13 points
    I can honestly say I have no knowledge of the crew being detained. Likely the authorities will want statements as someone has died but which authorities? The boat was not in HK waters but Guangdong waters. I hope those who read what I write realise I will never pillory anyone unnecessarily and will not write either to deliberately disadvantage someone who doesn't deserve it nor kick someone when they are down. If I sometimes know something that I have been requested not po pass on or make public then I will respect those sources - ALWAYS. Sorry guys In this case it doesn't really matter who is culpable, Vestas 11th Hour Racing have been involved in an incident where someone has died. These guys are not medics, first responders or soldiers, it is not an everyday occurrence for them. They will clearly be exhausted and in shock and I believe they should be given some space. Anyway, said my piece. SS
  12. 13 points
    VOR and Volvo aren't helping themselves any and there would be a lot less speculation if there wasn't this media blackout. Only showing smiling finishers while ignoring a tragedy is a piss poor response.
  13. 12 points
    I was asleep when this happened, and woke to a backlog of messages that have taken rather a while to crawl through. So... Why the heck is everyone treating this like a criminal/murder investigation. It is an accident. You don't detain people involved in accidents. You might interview them asap to get an early understanding whilst things are fresh in people's minds, but you don't put them in gaol. That requires you are charging them with a crime. The fact that there have been a few very highly publicised marine accidents where the skipper has been found criminally negligent does not mean every marine accident is a crime with the prospect of people spending time in the Big House. And the trial takes place months even years after the event. But any accident involving a death gets treated very seriously, and very well defined and developed protocols swing into place. As has been noted more than a few times, HK is no third world hick town. The only complicating factor is (quite clearly) the relationship with the mainland. But the legal and administrative formalities will be well understood. Given HK's history the parallels with the UK's way of managing such things is likely to be significant. Accident Investigation, Coroner, with the coroner maybe making recommendations for prosecution. I would guess that the key question for those involved will be one of criminal negligence (or whatever the equivalent is.) But this is a very long way down the track. If the skipper of V11 at the time was drunk it might be a different matter. But negligence, and especially criminal negligence, is a pretty high bar. Nobody here knows the details, indeed nobody on the planet does ATM. There is a big difference between a really unfortunate accident where someone dies, and an accident where someone has been behaving in a negligent manner to the point where prosecution is warranted. In the US we observe a culture where there is always someone at fault. Mostly it seems fuelled by a litigious society and no-win no-fee ambulance chasing lawyers. In the civilised world we don't go looking for someone to dump on every time something goes wrong. And we don't assume ab-initio that there is someone to blame when accidents occur.
  14. 12 points
    The problem is not so much poor charting as some charts locally NOT drawn to the WGS84 Datum ( they were last properly surveyed WAY BEOFRE satellites were in the sky) and of course GPS is universally to that standard unless manually programmed. This datum difference was largely responsible for one of the Clipper boats piling onto an island in either Indonesia area or Philippines (I can't remember). They were, I understand) using the plotter (on WGS84) while the paper charts had a warning printed that the datum as 1 mile out and they sailed straight onto the island. It is, at least partly, for this reason that most plotter and/or software have that "on your own head' warning when you switch them on. For anyone interested in the history of charting by the ROYAL NAVY (it's never properly called the 'British Navy') there is an excellent autobiography of Rear Admiral G.S. Ritchie called "No Day Too Long". When he joined the Admiralty Hydrography Department it was all done by triangulation and manual sights (and often still with lead line). By the time he retired as "The Hydrographer of the Royal Navy" (and went on to spend 10 years as Chairman of the Directing Committee of the International Hydrographic Bureau) it was all GPS. His son in law, who also retired as an RN '4 ringer' was one of my best sailing buddies back in the UK. The book is an excellent read and Admiral Ritchie was a wonderful and gracious man who I am honoured to have met on several occasions as he lived virtually down the road from my parents - sadly many years ago now. As an interesting aside he was the hydrographer on board HMS Challenger when she recorded the depth of the deepest ocean, Challenger Deep named for the ship that discovered it. Anyway, at least Witty managed to avoid a 'Vestas Moment'. SS
  15. 11 points
    I think this idea of stealth mode preventing us from seeing the positions has just reached its use by date. It has totally wrecked the whole point of a live tracker - we can't see the single most important battle of the race, and have been reduced to a situation that is actually worse than the normal 6 hour updates. We will find out the outcome well past any sort timeliness.
  16. 11 points
    Those white northern Europeans don't want to immigrate to a shithole country where there is no universal healthcare and religious fanatics who are armed to the teeth.
  17. 11 points
    Morning all--catching up. Lightning strike! Anyway, just saw this. Another almost unintended consequence of drones
  18. 11 points
    The real winner of this race was the International Jury who upheld the rules, clearly stating on the world stage, that no one is beneath the rules. Something sorely lacking in many parts of the world.
  19. 11 points
    I've come to the conclusion that you are just a troll, nobody can be this stupid...
  20. 11 points
    Great to see that rules exist for everyone!
  21. 11 points
    This is fantastic armchair judging by the uninformed. If you want to learn the rules better, read World Sailing Case 50. It discusses this scenario and talks about Starboard having a "reasonable apprehension of collision". Given the speed, size of boats, sea state, etc., if you were helming Comanche, you would certainly have a reasonable apprehension of collision and you would alter course so as to not breach RRS 14. Comanche's argument for dipping their bow slightly (if they did so at all) was that they were trying to avoid a collision in the event WOXI did not tack. When it was clear that WOXI was tacking, the only way to avoid was to head up. The word arrogant seems most appropriate for the actions by WOXI during the incident, and the arrogance continues with all of the "we won, we are so great" stuff in the interviews and on the WOXI Facebook page. It is not uncommon for SOME (but not all) pro sailors to believe they are above the rules, or as MR stated in the interview, it was not a "blatant infringement". If you read between the lines there, he is not denying that it was an infringement. My guess is that the "rules experts" aboard WOXI may have misread the SIs, thinking that they would only get a 5 minute penalty if ruled they broke a rule. If the IJ rules in favor of Comanche, a time penalty of less than 27 minutes is no penalty at all. IMHO, the time penalty should be enough to drop them back to 3rd or 4th in Line Honors.
  22. 11 points
    The ones who commit a foul, don't do their turns, and force the fouled boat to protest, lose my respect. Doesn't matter if they win or not.
  23. 11 points
    Sorry to disappoint but I haven't bumped this post to reveal the idententies of the IJ. As far as I can see they are people looking to make a contribution to our sport and despite my quip above, with some self sacrifice.Their ability is irrelevant as amongst other things their decision cannot be appealed as I pointed out above. What is apparent to anyone unless they are stupid WOXI won the battle on the water. What I did do at that post was push the pause button interested in both the result and the winners public utterings. That obviously proved to be WOXI and from Mark Richards. I could wax lyrical but in short myself and a number of sailing buddies, some name sailors on the world scene included, some not, some uber rich, some not were all following the outcome of this race with interest. The ingredients including weather we're compelling. The outcome of the WOXI and Comanche lee bow tack where WOXI didn't capitulate and do a 720 had us perplexed. Therefore we waited and from what Mark Richards uttered at the dock we are now collectively appalled. Words like an "innocent" manouve I did consistent with the expectations of an offshore race being somehow different to the standing rules? That made my and our collective bloods boil over. Here is a leader in our sport telling us all, including impressionable youngsters who crave heros, that I Mark Richards effectively make the rules up to suit myself. Well as of now there are a few hours left for Mr Cooney to continue with his protest as flagged. A decision I don't envy him with on account of the "paper win" barbs he will get if he succeeds, and quite frankly he should by any objective assessment. Whether it secures a win or not is probably irrelevant. That all aside if Cooney doesn't continue his protest, or does so but fails, and the decision by the CYCA appointed IJ is not a transparent deliberatation and conclusion for all to see, then this will happen Before the last boat docks as permitted by all of the black letter stuff a protest under Rule 69 will be lodged identifying the CYCA and it's appointed IJ for the S2H for bringing the sport into disrepute. That protest will be of substance and bring into play various other legal considerations under Australian law. For instance Mr Sandy Oatley if you are reading these meanderings from, in your mind an internet fool. Can I suggest every dollar you outlay from today to support the above parties would not be a good idea. Motivation for this course of action you may ask? The answer is simple. I and some like minded souls could not give two hoots about the race outcome, but have spent our lives educating and encouraging our kids regarding the protocols of sport and it's rules. Be fucked if we are going to see some rich guy and his lacky put our collective investment on the rocks. That investment in our own kids, their friends and those they don't even know outweighs the Oatley family's investment in another 24hr headline for their boat by a country mile.
  24. 10 points
    Is there a special places where all these trolls and new posters hide while waiting for things such as this? The last 5-6 pages have displayed some disgusting behaviour, clamouring for information before anything has been clarified, insinuating guilt, on various parties, bitching and arguing with each...etc, etc. It’s like a bunch of people at a train wreck trying to take photographs, surmising what’s happened before the bodies and wreckage have been moved, fucking disgusting!!
  25. 10 points
    After careful consideration we've decided to take Zorro off the evening helm shift. His shenanigans proved costly last night. Reminder to self: Double-check course and close VR app before sliding device into pocket.
  26. 10 points
    Meanwhile, Annemieke tells how she felt about the rule 69 issue Her own opinion about it is all I care about, and she wasn't offended by the video, only by how people claimed that she must have been.
  27. 10 points
    A lot have him on ignore here for these kind of shit fight comments. We try not to quote him. There's a whole other thread about the boats being wet and another about the 65's. But of course he knows that already.
  28. 10 points
    This is the most insane bit of dick swinging I have ever seen. "My race is more hardcore than yours because we kill more sailors then you." Nuts. Get a grip on reality and life. No matter how hard core your race, the correct number of deaths is exactly zero. More than that is suggestive that you have a problem; it is not a badge of merit. I notice that after the 2012 accident there is a now a minimum equipment requirement for the Farallones . What I also notice is that the list is actually a weakened version of the US Sailing safety equipment requirements for coastal races, removing such things as stability requirements. I guess not forcing some boats out of the race was more important.
  29. 10 points
    I did a quick scan of Australian TV outlets on their Sydney to Hobart Race (S2H) coverage tonight with both Line Honurs (LH) and Tattersalls (Handicap) podium honours now decided. Firstly good coverage of the little horses after last night's big horse controversy. Hats off to Matt Allen (who just happens to be Aust Sailings current head honcho and ex CYCA Commodore) finally cracking it after trying 28 years to do so, and for a long time on his own boat. Secondly, not a peep from Team Wild Oats (WOXI). So only public comments about Line Honours (LH) are those of other competitors, WOXI crew like Mark Mason's on Newstalk NZ and some WOXI sycophants. Other S2H competitors quotes in this regard were universally along the lines of "do the crime, do the time." So to the WOXI sycophants. Well this guy was a standout. His name is John Markos. John's bio is him being a Managing Partner of Hicksons Lawyers in Sydney and it seems advises clients in a range of commercial matters and in dispute resolution. So Mr Markos is both professionaly and very practically experienced with "black letter" laws and regulations, their interpretation, application and enforcement. So this Mr Markos after hearing Jim Cooney (Comanche's owner) publicly state his reasons for protesting, including reference to the S2H Race Rules and issues of safety for two vessels with a collective value in the tens of millions and upwards of 40 persons on board including family members, then made this following statement. By the way how do I know Mr Markos heard all that and was afforded air time? Simple, he represents the Race Organiser as CYCA Commodore and is the one who handed Jim Cooney owner of Comanche the LH silverware. This is the entirety of what the RO via Mr Markos said as broadcast (word perfect as I recorded it on ABC Channel 2, 7.00pm AEDT) about the International Jury (IJ) imposing a one (1) hour penalty on WOXI (and with my emphasis). "I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes" So here we have the RO essentialy saying the RO wanted WOXI to win and the Rules of their own Race should just be set aside by the the IJ to allow that to occur. By any objective assessment that is totally outrageous coming from a RO and one where everyone expects and demands their views on the race to be both impartial and having the sports best interest at the front of their mind. Seems not. So Mr Markos if you are reading this, I say this to you Sir. OPEN LETTER TO MR JOHN MARKOS - COMMODORE CYCA I listened and absorbed your views on Comanche's Line Honours win, and Race Record title for the Sydney to Hobart Race as expressed on Channel 2 ABC News tonite (7.00pm AEDT). That was in your capacity as the Race Organiser spokesperson about Wild Oats being penalised one (1) hour by the International Jury and being stripped of its title in favour of Comanche. Your statement to the media was: "I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes" My response to you Sir is this: 1. By any objective assessment your view is one of surprise Wild Oats had to firstly defend a protest and then secondly dismay for the International Jury's to rule against them and the quantum of the penalty. I won't dwell on that last aspect other than to remind you of precedent in this regard set in 1983 and 1990 races involving a disqualification and penalty of ten placings and obviously the stripping of LH standings in both instances. 2. Thank goodness there is a International Jury for this event, as opposed to an "in house" CYCA Race Committee determining protests, with regard to the partesian views as you have expressed. 3. Despite your standing, including professional legal background, it would appear you have little regard for the "black letter" Rules attached to this sport, your own race, why they are there, yet let alone how they should be dealt with, on and off the race course by competitors and adjudicators alike. 4. To remind you of the rules of racing as we're broken by Wild Oats and expressed by none other than the owner of Comanche and uttered publically before and after you handed over the trophy on stage to him, but you subsequently would appear to have little respect for. That is Rule 13 when a boat that is tacking (changing tack and tack not completed) shall keep clear of boats that are not tacking. That is designed to avoid in this case two vessels colliding who have upwards of forty persons combined on board, a combined weight of over 60 tonnes with the extreme consequences attached to that and though probably irelevant, a combined value in the tens of millions of dollars. The latter probably only applies as regard to the Race Organiser being you as spokesperson promoting this race on the national and world stage. 5. It would appear you have little understanding of this sport, how it is viewed by the general public and things that need to be employed to advance it. Your own "one boat, one team should have won" partesian utterings support my interpretations. In short you clearly don't have any regard for the thousands from kids upwards who participate, support and in some instances seek role models at the top end and they aspire to be. They do that in the expectation rules apply and are respected no matter the economic and social standing of those involved. 6. Having regard for competitors who are members of your Club, some who have largely expressed the view on the record and contry to yours being, "do the crime, do the time". Then it is my expectation and hope if they are true to that view, they will kick you to the kerb at the earliest opportunity, or failing that, at the next General Election of your Club Office Bearers. You and those of your ilk are a monumental blight on our sport. There is no place for you, so please disappear and let others that can do the job properly, do so. Yours The Sparrow.
  30. 10 points
    Just in case anyone gives a shit what I think. There was a wind shift to the left in between the two outer marks. Oats got a port tack ride back into contact with Comanche and Black Jack. This was just an accident of timing, if they had been further ahead at the first turning mark, they wouldn't have had the leverage. So it wasn't a case of their superior speed finally digging them out of their poor start. Their poor start put them in the right place at the right time. Comanche eats as much of the lefty as they can stand, and finally thinking it isn't going to shift back they tack to take their lumps and get into the new breeze. Tacking Comanche without diesel winches is slower than for Wild Oats. As a result minimizing tacks is part of their strategy. As they converge, the port shift wanes and the sure cross looks like a close cross. The on board video from Wild Oats shows them making bearing on Comanche until Ricko changes helm stations. From that vantage point, I would venture to say that they could have crossed, with maybe an I owe you one on the side. They are not on the layline for the mark, so they are going to have to tack twice anyway. Having just ridden a lefty, they probably still want to own the left. If Oats tacks safely to leeward of Comanche, she will be pinned from the mark, unable to tack until Comanche tacks. As a result they attempt a slam dunk and fail. Ricko has been doing things like this with Wild Oats and getting away with if for quite a while, which explains his "rules are different" comment. Others may sail the race, but Wild Oats owns it. Either Comanche waving them across, or Wild Oats tacking safely to leeward and ahead were the prudent choices. Many times big boats in congested waters are a little lax with rule enforcement just to prevent stupid and unsafe situations. Mark Richards' lack of judgement robbed Wild Oats XI of a place in the record books. Sure Wild Oats XI could be called Grandfather's Axe because there is almost nothing left of the original boat, but she has been an historic yacht with a great record. If she is to be sold or retired, it would have been on a very high note and possibly holding a record which will not be broken any time soon. SHC
  31. 10 points
    WOXI won sailing over the water Scan. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a dumb cunt. However there are rules and a rule has been broken. Richo's excuse in interviews stepping off the boat is probably the most self-serving unapologetic shit I have ever witnessed in this sport and maybe more. Love where our sport is going where say 8yo Opti and impressionable sailors looking for hero's think Richo's view of rule respect is where they should head. We reap what we sow. Fucking appalling.
  32. 9 points
    He keeps referring to what people say in here in general. "Readers on SA comment.....", "SA comments" - I don't like it. The forum is of course public but I think most people who post in here believe that what they write is meant for this forum alone.
  33. 9 points
    Having sailed into it myself, I thought it was crazy to race in to a port like Cochin (Kochi) in the 2008/2009 race. To go in at such high speed seemed wreckless to me and I figured it was a miracle nobody got into a collision that year. Unless you have gone in or out of an area like that, you don't understand how congested and crazy it can be, especially on a day when the small fishing boats are trying to get back to market. AIS is useless since most of the small boats don't use it. Radar is great but a small wooden boat in waves may be very hard to pick up. It could be that speeds of 20 knots going into Hong Kong is simply too fast to see the small, poorly lit and non AIS boats in the area. If you are in a restricted or dangerous area with known navigation hazards, you must take all precautions and being in a race doesn't mean a thing. It is possible that Vestas could be deemed to be at fault here, even if the boat they hit was not being operated properly. I think this could get very messy in the courts. What a tragedy for everybody.....
  34. 9 points
    One way or another, I feel horrible. Some random guy just died because of our sport. I’m not going to whine about new rules or any of that nonsense, I just feel bad.
  35. 9 points
    I’ve got the feeling that 24knts approaching Hongkong is twice as dangerous as 35knts in the Southern Ocean.
  36. 9 points
    I'd say Scally, being stone motherless, had nothing to lose by taking that chance... what other option did they really have..? They were match racing from behind... BTW.. I'm already reading the specublather by the keyboard yachties on how the rules should be amended at Honkers for not wearing PFD / tethers / PLB's and bumbags with jet packs to propel the crewman back to the boat or HQ depending on fuel capacity..... FAAAARRRK Beer and popcorn at the ready.. PS... Randumb must going out of his tiny mind with Witt in the lead...
  37. 9 points
    Well you know, like "What is in fact actually up with Witty?" or "Do you expect Peter Burling to express a keenness to get back on the water when interviewed right before the start of the next leg? Or "What is the radius of the patch of ocean that Martine Grael renders measurably more glamorous when passing through?" And last but not least, "Would you sack Mark Richards?"
  38. 9 points
  39. 9 points
    I'd normally hesitate to comment on "family," but it's worth saying that she's actually a great sailor. Julia's not only a very decent jib/kite trimmer, but she's one of those sailors who just gets all the parts of keeping a boat going. Automatically back flaking sheets after a tack or gybe, sponging out bilges at the end of the day, making coffee when at sea - all the tasks that (IMHO) are more important to a boat than being an awesome trimmer, but a lousy team player. And that stands out even more when her family owns the boat. As an example, in the 2015 Hobart as we were punching into a really fresh southerly at 2am (and everyone else on board was trying to project manage reefing the main, breaking battens etc.) Julia was exactly where she was meant to be - down to leeward, trimming the jib and getting REALLY pissed off when people kept asking if she was OK. She was then in the galley a couple of hours later helping me make coffee for the guys on deck. She's a total team player, from helping the sewer team pack kites (which is a shit of a job on an 80' maxi) to buying a round of beers after racing.
  40. 9 points
    Took the family out and got a few shots at the start..
  41. 9 points
    Comanche pink 696.3NM WOXI green 656.3NM
  42. 9 points
    It has taken me a whole bottle of Rioja to read through today's posts, so I've erased all the quotes I'd collected and I'm just going to wish you all a happy New Year...
  43. 9 points
    If Comanche was Swedish, they'd say "fuck the protest. We want to go and drink beer." And if they were Norwegian, they'd not let anything stop them from protesting. If Danish, they'd turn up drunk in the hearing.
  44. 9 points
    Once the flame bait is filtered, there are some interesting points here. 1. Charles' efforts are probably better compared to Mike Sandison's (building inexperienced sailors into a team, like China into world sailing), no? 2. 2012 was really about Juan K designs, not the sailors who rode them. The failures there were freighted around the world. Not impressive to watch, though some impressive test of the teams to repair the boats, like Telefonica at the Horn, Abu Dhabi in Aukland, and Camper in Chile, etc. Not a test of a team to race. Much like the "top" French single handers--too often it's about the boat design. Any chance there will be a race where they get to go up against each other in 'identical' boats? Until then, we'll never be able to tell. 2017 is about one-design, where we get to see a test of teams, not kit or even individuals.Knut Frostad's dream. The VO65 has allowed this. Amazing, not sad. Don't know how Gabard and co would handle the lack of a doghouse. So, can't see much merit in your claim that Charles does not deserve appreciation. If anything, seems like he is taking French sailing in a different, maybe even better, direction.
  45. 8 points
    Given someone died makes a big difference to the way information is released. Releasing any crash cam video (even assuming it exists) is a very bad idea. It is seriously disrespectful of the dead fisherman, and is simply ghoulish. The video of him being hoisted away was appalling in that context. Video of the accident that killed him similarly. There is also the assumption that the VOR even have any video. Although there has been access to the boat for assessment, I very much doubt access is afforded to allow general rummaging about in the computer systems. It is a fatality at sea. There will be procedures about evidence and the integrity thereof. The responsibility for the dissemination of facts about the accident has passed from the VOR. Responsibility is now firmly in the hands of any investigation. For the VOR to start preempting them would be bad. Nobody has a responsibility to release partial bits of information to satisfy the desires of us mere punters to analyse what might have occurred.
  46. 8 points
    So much speculation here and other sites. No-one yet knows what really happened except those involved. There was apparent injury, there is no confirmation if it was either a commercial fishing boat or leisure fishing boat, whether it was moving or not, whether it sank or not, whether it was lit or not - if it was commercial then likely lit up like a Christmas tree. Only thing close to 100% is that the Hong Kong Marine Department will investigate and given the likely potential legal ramifications it should come as no real surprise that the Volvo Ocean Race 'machine' will be somewhat circumspect with any public information they send out, easy to be misinterpreted or misquoted. Whatever, it is not a 'good look'. I have spoken with a number of people much closer to incident and rather than pour fuel on the speculation fire that's all I will say on the subject. SS
  47. 8 points
    "Jus sayin" and "just asking questions" have pretty much become code for: "I am a total fuckwit and I'm using this phrase as an excuse to say something that will indelibly prove this"
  48. 8 points
    I honestly found the fact that none of the 'offended' people bothered to get in contact with Annamieke completely unbelievable. Dawn, Tracey, or any of the other people involved could easily have reached out to her to explain their position whilst the fleet was in Cape Town. I found that far more offensive than the video itself.
  49. 8 points
    Which is the argument for just doing the bloody turns......... idiots.
  50. 8 points
    Glad you said that Jack. I went from losing my money on Comanche to winning at $4.00 to collect a few hundred dollars. Where is that tosser TRT131 who reckoned this was a no incident? I will say a few things, well done Oats the mods worked better than expected. Ricco you are an arrogant bugger and sometimes Karma loves blokes like you.! Comanche got to the river 3 miles ahead and the wind did them no favours, yes thats the course and Oats beat them over the line, but they weren't the fastest boat IMO. This is great for Hobart big boat lovers, the rivalry is now going to be intense. I don't see this as a hollow victory, Comanche led basically the whole way. To win the Hobart you need some luck but Ricco doesn't believe in the Karma gods. It is what is is, don't play the game if you don't believe in the rules.! @trt131 you are a tosser.!