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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

jtsailjt

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About jtsailjt

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    Anarchist

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  • Location
    Penobscot Bay
  • Interests
    Cruising, traveling, motorcycling, archery, snowmobiling, lots of other stuff
  1. I want as small and light weight as I can get away with that will still reliably start the engine when my wife wants to go ashore alone, and I also want to be able to tip it (the battery, not the engine) upside down if possible so I can leave it permanently attached to transom of dinghy. I think that means AGM but what's the minimum size for a 20hp 4 stroke mercury based on anyone with a similar setup? I have the engine owners manual but am looking for a "real life" answer from someone with experience.
  2. Yup! Me too. I always liked the Shellback! It's Joel White design IIRC C'est vrai! I met Joel once back in the 80s. He was so kind and friendly I made it my mission to build one of his designs first. That's a great tender and a very fun sailor when you drop the hook in a quiet cove after a brilliant summer day of sailing. I only met Joel once also. Standing at the end of his boatyards dock at about 8AM on a still Sunday morning with nobody else around waiting for my friends to wake up and come in to shore in their dinghy to take me out to their B40 for the sail back to SW Harbor this quite tall, older guy came strolling out the dock and quietly enjoyed the view with me for a few minutes. I had no idea who he was, just seemed like a nice older man who was enjoying being close to the water and the peaceful beginning of a new day as I was. Eventually he asked what brought me to Brooklin (NOT what the hell you doing on my dock?) and I explained what I was doing and that my friends seemed to have overslept. He casually said, well why don't you row one of those dinghys (as he nodded towards the dinghy dock) out to your friends boat, and I replied (still no clue who he was) that I didn't have a dinghy here and wouldn't want to borrow one without owners permission. He said, it's OK, you can use any of those down there, just leave it on the mooring and I'll come out and get it later. So, still thinking it a bit odd for anyone to make such a statement, I thanked him and introduced myself and he introduced himself and the light finally came on. He'd already been diagnosed with cancer and only lived a few more years but based on that one chance meeting, I really wish I could have got to know him better. From everything I've heard about him, that's pretty much how he treated everyone, a really nice man!
  3. Everybody here loses their mind now and then, just part of what makes this place fun! Once you get your tank leak and bottom paint prep wrapped up, I could stand some help with varnishing removable parts I brought home, bottom paint prepping and painting, registering my new dinghy, researching what the best battery (size/ wet/AGM?) is for my new 20hp electric start dinghy outboard will be and purchasing/installing same, adjusting rollers on trailer to fit new dinghy, selling my old 15hp 4 stroke outboard on Craigslist, recommissioning all the systems, bending on the sails and checking/adjusting rig, spring cleaning after winter storage, installing a new vessel sink in aft head, installing permanent mounted oil change pump, installing new stereo with bluetooth, THEN I can start plugging away at installing our new Webasto Heater once our boat is safely on our new mooring......guess I won't be around here much for the next couple of (6?) months either! But welcome back, whenever you get the chance to stop by again! It's getting to be that busy boating time of year here in the north country! The above reminds me (thread drift alert!), since I've never had an electric start dinghy outboard before, what is the best battery to use? I've had and continue to have larger motorboats where weight isn't an issue and I'm a devotee to the bigger the better school of thought so use largish wet cells on them, but what to use for a new 20hp electric start outboard on an 11' RIB? I intend to eventually add a small automatic bilge pump and simple depth finder but wouldn't run the depth finder unless the motor was running. Also, if it rained enough for the bilge pump to flatten the battery, I could pretty easily pull start it to recharge the battery. I'd also like to permanently mount the battery up off the floor so even if the bilge pump failed it wouldn't get swamped unless the RIB entirely filled with water, and so I didn't have to remove it when offshore and the dinghy is removed from davits and placed upside down on foredeck. So, I've been considering an AGM battery that's about 2/3 the size of a normal car battery and mounting it against the transom on the port side so the top of the battery cover is just beneath the top of the transom. I don't know the size but to give you an approximate idea, on the packaging it says it's for use in jet ski's. Would anyone advise me to stay away from AGM batteries for this application? What am I not considering? Better options? Thanks!
  4. BTW, just found the ignore function and it works great, completely invisible! I like "excessively ambitious" people just fine, just as long as I can sense that it's not complete BS. In my past life I was a fighter pilot and after a while noticed that most of the outstanding ones knew very well that they were good and it's pretty hard to completely hide that you know that about yourself. Then, there were a few who talked the talk but just couldn't walk the walk and their attitude became tiresome because it was so far from what we both knew in our hearts was reality, BS artists. In another field we're all familiar with, whether he happened to be short or tall, Bob Perry would sound like an idiot if he tried to say he was just an average naval architect. I just couldn't buy that as sincere and it would bug me if he tried to pull that off. Off course he's damn good at what he does and he didn't get that way by not having ambition or working long and hard. The other naval architect I'm familiar with and consider to be outstanding is Chuck Paine. Like Bob, he doesn't go around bragging about how great he is all day, but you get the sense from both of them that they know they're very good at what they do and worked hard to get to that point. I couldn't tell you Chuck's exact height, he's not big, but he's got a very laid back style with a great sense of humor, just like a lot of tall and accomplished folks have, and I've never heard anyone say they didn't like him or that he had an obnoxious ego. I've seen short, overly ambitious folks with little mans disease, always to prove to themselves that they're better than they know they are in their hearts, but I also know quite a few short people who are very accomplished. So, when I meet a short person who initially seems to have more ambition than seems appropriate, before I assume it's little mans disease, I step back and watch them for awhile and very often find out that their ambition and high self image is well justified. Good for them!
  5. Yes. You keep saying so. I taunted him out of his closet. He's mine to keep. The rest of you may use him, but he's mine. Yes, I know. That's the third time you've said so. He belongs to me. Hey tool, you don't "own" anyone and nobody "belongs" to you. Just because *your* perception of the ignore function is a "surrender", doesn't make it so. So far, you've offered nothing of value since your arrival. That marks you as a Class 1 Troll. Keep flapping that pretty little mouth of yours, and soon you'll find that you're the only person you have to talk to. No need to ban you when everything you say, can be reduced to "You have ignored this user. Click to read this post?" By quoting him, you force others who have used the ignore function to see his posts, which is his goal. You're correctly identified him as a troll and everyone knows that the first rule of trolls is don't feed the troll....nuff said.
  6. Newt invited us to post it, so we posted it. It's a good thing that it was posted. Clearly demonstrates what a self centered twit we have in Newt. It's absurd that he thinks any of us give a fuck that he intended to take up a personal crusade against SA, boycotting sponsors, etc. Personally, I thought his letter threatening organizing a boycott was one of the most creative and fun parts of this thread. Imagine the absurdity of someone using their valuable time calling or emailing other people all over the world trying to persuade them to not have anything to do with a sailing forum because occasionally, interspersed with sailboat pix and discussion, someone posts tits or tells someone else to fuck off or HTFU! The horror! If he actually followed through, I've got a feeling we'd suddenly find ourselves with lots of new members who have absolutely NO interest in sailing but do have an interest in those which offend Newt! It looks like he probably won't follow through with his boycott attempt, but it was a nice thought!
  7. I think that the "Private" part of PM should be respected in almost all cases, and no matter how outrageous/silly/stupid the rant is, except when someone is actually threatening you. I got warned for that at CF when I made a post suggesting that Scoobydoo's method of going cruising with almost no knowledge and being totally dependent on a constant internet connection was apt to not end well, and he responded via a PM threatening to look me up and commit violent acts against me, and he sounded serious! When someone threatens to kill or do you physical harm (and they really don't seem to be joking), I think the best way to end that behavior is to expose it to the whole community and let everyone judge for themselves. At CF the mods warned me for posting Scoobydoo's threat to me and told me I should have told them instead, but I've just never been a believer in going to "the authorities" when I could handle it myself. I think that when someone has one persona when publicly posting, but another entirely different one in private, AND they cross over that line of threatening violence,they deserve for everyone to see, in their own words, just what a whackjob they really are.
  8. I'm a little embarrassed to admit I haven't managed to get kicked off CF yet, but the schoolmarms have felt the need to speak sternly to me twice so I must be on the right track! Congrats to you Smack on your recent banishment though, glad to see you're somehow managed to survive the humiliation. Future CF Bendytoy sinking threads (and lots of others too) won't ever be the same without ya!
  9. We plan to be there near opening time on thursday. Need bottom paint, new 11' RIB, 20hp outboard, new fender covers, and who knows what else we'll see that we just can't live without?! I've ordered lots of stuff from there but am excited about visiting the store for the first time!
  10. As other have mentioned, that's the usual week of the Woodenboat Regatta which starts up on the other end of Eggemoggin Reach, though I haven't been able to find any info about this years event. I'd plan to take your 18 footer up there and spend the night. Once you're around Cape Rosier, it's all protected sailing. The race is something to behold, with all varieties of woodenboats, from restored classics, to ultra modern, faux classics built right there at Steve White's yard or over in Rockport at his brother in laws place. For most entrants, while they're trying to do as well as possible within their class, it's unusual to hear anyone screaming at their crew, which is just how sailboat races like this should be. The reason I suggest taking your boat up the night before is because most of the boats and support boats (around 100 total) will be anchored in Brooklin Harbor and it's great fun to dinghy among them and visit and take pictures and talk to the other crews. It's a very congenial group for the most part. Anyway, it's something every sailor ought to experience at least once and since you'll be so close by....but if you can't make it down for the actual race, during that whole week, Penobscot Bay will be accumulating all sorts of wooden boats in addition to all the other usual suspects that are out sailing this time of year. It's also the best time of year for sailing conditions. While fog is still possible, the real foggy time tends to be earlier and by late July and early August we usually get a period of time with sunny skies, 80 degree temps on land with 70 degree temps on the bay, 15 knot southwesterlies each afternoon that completely die away by 7PM. Since many other sailors have also noticed this phenomenon, there will be more boats than usual to see out on the bay, although during weekdays it's still not uncommon to be out there sailing in heavenly conditions, with nothing but a couple of lobster boats in sight and no sails! Where IS everybody?! Definitely take your 18 footer and enjoy, whether you make it to the woodenboat event or not, you really can't miss that time of year on the water in Penobscot Bay.
  11. There's one NY32 owner right down the street from CYC, and there are a few more in the neighborhood. Every time I have done Marblehead to Castine, Castine to Camden and Camden to Brooklyn it's been a real nice collection of classics. CYC's docks are usually full up. You couldn't have picked a better week. I think you're talking about Bob XXXXX, really nice guy, interesting as well. and it boat is beautiful. I was trying to be discrete. Yes, I've had a couple nice nights on Falcon getting eaten alive by mosquitoes with Mitch and Mush. Those were good times. couldn't edit it so I went ahead and deleted that post, but yes, great people. He might be "great people" if you're on his boat and helping him win trophy's, but.... Several years ago I had been dropped off by car at the Bucks Harbor dock to meet a friend to go on a weeks cruise downeast. As we were preparing to depart the dock in our dinghy, Falcon (new to the area after the owner moved up from Florida) was also at the dock offloading several bags which were loaded into a Suburban and driven away. Shortly after, when everyone from Falcon had either departed to go back to Castine for the night or had departed the harbor aboard Falcon, I noticed that my large bag with my clothes, my portable GPS, and my contribution to food (including some frozen food) for the week was no longer sitting on the dock with the other bags ready to be loaded into our dinghy. Marina and store were both closed for the night, we didn't have a car (friends wife had dropped him off) and cell phone reception was non existent in harbor so we brought our boat into the fuel dock and spent the evening out in the cockpit so that when whoever took my bag realized his mistake that we'd be easily accessible for him to easily return the bag. Since they were the only other ones on the dock and it said Castine on Falcons transom, and the drive from Bucks to Castine is only about 30 minutes, I assumed that we'd have my bag back in about an hour or so. However the evening passed with no sign of anyone from Falcon or my bag. So, the next morning, with our cruise now delayed, I asked the marina if they knew who owned Falcon and it turned out that they did and had his phone number. So I called, and he answered and casually said that yeah, he had noticed an extra bag that wasn't his the previous evening when they unloaded the Suburban and figured they must have inadvertently picked it up on the Bucks Harbor dock. I was a little taken aback by the fact that he had known he had another sailors duffel bag with my name on it, and had made no effort to return it promptly but I let that slide and asked how soon he could have it back to me so we could begin our planned cruise downeast. He said that actually not at all that day because he was about to leave to rejoin his boat for a race that day so wouldn't have time to return it until the next day, but he would leave it at his house in Castine and I could sail up there (opposite direction from our planned cruise) and pick it up ourselves if we wanted it earlier. No apology, nothing, just a statement that he had better things to do that day than return my property that he had inadvertently taken but knowingly kept overnight. We had no choice but to change our plans and sail up to Castine to retrieve it so that's what we did. Falcon is certainly a beautiful boat, but based on this first hand experience, I hope you can understand why I feel like the owner falls quite a bit short of what I consider "great people."
  12. As many have correctly pointed out, once you're in contact with the dock, spring lines and a little prior planning can usually make a thruster unnecessary, but on a cruising boat without a spade rudder, I ran into a situation last summer at a marina where a bow thruster made all the difference. A narrow channel with another boat tied up so its transom extends well beyond the end of the dock so a 120 degree right turn will be necessary to proceed down another narrow channel to our assigned slip, and with a crosswind from the right so a certain amount of speed would be necessary to have enough rudder effectiveness to make that turn. Go too slow and the rudder won't turn the boat. Go slow and use reverse to try to swing the stern to port but while you're doing that you're being blown steadily towards another boat on the left side of the channel that's not far away. Go too fast and your turn radius is too big so you hit the outside of the turn. I know, why put yourself into such a situation? But when I called on VHF and was assigned the slip, nobody mentioned how narrow the channels in the marina were and apparently they hadn't noticed the boat parked on the inside of the turn extending out into the channel I was turning into and I couldn't see any of that until I was well into the first narrow channel. I honestly don't know whether I would have made it around that tight corner without a thruster but having one sure made a big difference and lowered my stress level. Then, we were assigned the second slip after the tight turn so with a thruster I was able to continue to pivot and pull directly into our slip without having to use reverse to spin the boat. If the turn had been a left handed turn so I was turning against the direction the prop would push me in reverse, the bow thruster would have been even more necessary. I don't run into situations like this very often, but once in a great while, it's surely a nice thing to be able to spin the boat in it's own length, even in a crosswind that's trying to prevent you from doing that.
  13. I don't think you are as small a minority as all that but it IS what the sailing mags would have us all believe. I got to know one of the Cruising World Boat of the Year judges several years back and his boat is set up a LOT more like Hawk than any of the boats that every year he declares are "the best" cruising boats available. The well thought out choices he has made on his own boat (that he has staked his life on many times during his circumnavigations) tell me a lot more about how he really feels about what's important than the words that he gets paid to write. I've found myself actually laughing out loud when I read some of those reviews because the features they rave on about aren't features they have on their own boats. Part of that may be because they can't afford it, but I suspect that a lot of it is driven by the knowledge that if you want to keep the CW boat of the year gig, you can't say that most of the boats evaluated are completely unsuited for long distance cruising and you wouldn't be caught dead on one in the middle of an angry ocean. I used to get a little frustrated with Bob's reviews for that same reason...until I learned a little more about his "wry" sense of humor and gained the perspective that's necessary to read them properly. But the mainstream boating press definitely does all it can to promote the "more gadgets aboard the better" attitude, as their advertisers require them to. I still have faith that many of those boaters with more than a few thousand miles under their keels can see through a lot of it. That said, we're all individuals and at different times of our lives want different things out of our boat/home so even in the same person, what compromises the "perfect boat" can vary quite a lot over time and that's all perfectly OK.
  14. I really like the looks of that boat, both inside and out. The kid is obviously taking good advantage of a once in a million opportunity to study under a true master during his most formative years. Lots of really good questions here but I'm assuming that if Bob says he's good, then of course the hard dodger is an appropriate height and the cockpit seats are long enough to lay out on, etc. But the one thing that comes to my mind is the location of the one head. Certainly it's a question of personal preference but worth discussing the pro's and cons. You mention that "do you really need to walk to a stern head to piss in the middle of the night," maybe not from the "pissers" perspective, but your wife might enjoy not being awakened by the sound of pissing and flushing very close to where she is attempting to sleep, either by you or by any overnight guests you have onboard. My former boat was a Nordic 44, also with only one head located aft, which allowed for a very nice, large forward cabin with plenty of room to stand up while getting dressed and a small sink/mirror vanity. Originally, it had a small second toilet under the hinged settee top but I removed that along with the accompanying forward holding tank and plumbing. It gained me a fair amount of storage space and removed any chance of getting even a whiff of unpleasant smells while sleeping or "napping." I did like having the small vanity with sink up there because it allowed for the personal items (toothbrush, contact lense case, makeup, etc.) in the master cabin to be close at hand and available while getting ready for bed or in the morning, while others were using the head, located at the foot of the companionway. I consider the Nordic 44 head configuration and location to be just about ideal for an aft cockpit in this size range. Offshore, it's easy to access from both the cabin and the cockpit and you don't have to walk through the whole saloon in your wet foulies to get to it. With a molded shower stall partially tucked in underneath aft of the companionway, it doesn't take up a lot of useful saloon space. If you put both the head and galley on the same side, it cuts way down on plumbing runs all over the boat and allows multiple uses for thru-hulls in this area, cutting down on the number of thru-hulls needed. Offshore, the molded shower stall can double as a wet hanging locker right where it's most useful. With an Espar heater outlet in that shower, the oncoming watch can begin each watch in completely dry, warm clothing and they will naturally don their foul weather gear just outside the head, at the foot of the companionway steps, where their movements and bumping around aren't likely to awaken or disturb other sleeping crewmembers. However, I do love the very nice galley in his drawing and would hate to lose that. I also realize that removing the head from the forward cabin and re -inserting the head just aft of the galley would push the whole main saloon forward so the mast would become an obstruction to peer around while seated at the table. Not sure if it could be done while keeping that nice galley, or whether you or Will can be persuaded it's even desirable? But just for fun I'd really like to see a version drawn that way.
  15. +1 Take a look at the Sydney to Hobart race or any other big boat distance race outside or the Volvo. None of those 60 footers hit the line with 9 guys to race balls out 24/7 for days on end. You bet any of them can do any job on the boat. During most of the race each of the 9 struggle to do their own job and non sailing task assignments there is only so much time and physical energy in the day. Here is the junior lightweight on the boat... Team Vestas Wind Trimmer, data processing & food (Under 30) Peter Wibroe He speaks: Danish and English. Who he is: Pete has a solid background in match racing. He was a crew member of the SAP Extreme 40 and has competed in the Melges 32 and RC 44. And he has a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences with a master’s degree in nanotechnology. Pete’s bachelor of nanotechnology thesis topic was: “Exploring encapsulation efficiency in single vehicles by passive transport across bilayers around phase transition.” http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENPW1 Once again, a very impressive resume and clearly a very intelligent and accomplished guy, but it doesn't even mention any qualifications as a mariner other than as a match racer. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I think it supports my initial suggestion that many of the crew were more racing specialists than all around seamen. Rather than being generalists who are proficient at all the sorts of things that most people who cross oceans are, many of the crew are specialists whose role has always been to make a boat go fast and possibly that's part of the reason why nobody else aboard happened to take a look at the chartplotter and notice they were heading for an island. In a previous life I was an F-16 pilot. In those days almost everyone who got to fly a F-16 was a least in the top 10% of his initial pilot training class and then you competed constantly against all of your peers to try to be the best. As a F-16 pilot you were required to maintain proficiency at air to ground, close air support, air to air, and interceptor missions against all sorts of adversaries, and stay up to date with ever evolving tactics and weapons, and of course things were always happening/changing at a rather fast pace on every single training mission. It was very challenging and rewarding and fun! However, a disproportionate number of F-16's were crashing and killing their pilots while flying a routine instrument approach, something the guy who finished last in his pilot training class could do just fine. A very good pilot who was my best buddy while we were in F-4 training class together was killed a few years later in an F-16 while flying instruments at night in nonchallenging conditions. The F-16 had adequate instruments but not great instruments, it was designed to win dogfights and drop bombs, not fly instrument approaches. Still, one would think that this group of some of the best fighter pilots in the world would be able to reliably fly a routine instrument approach in the fog without killing themselves and crashing the airplane. It turned out that the problem wasn't primarily with the instruments or even the reclined seating position causing vertigo, though both of those factors probably had some effect, but was more that fighter pilots tend to take great pride in making themselves into the best dogfighters or bombers in the squadron, but many considered working at refining their instrument flying skills to be not cool. If there was extra fuel left at the end of a training mission, nobody ever said "I think I'll fly an extra ILS approach just for practice." In other words, we were a community of pilots who were flying one of the most technologically advanced airplanes in the world, had well above average talent, were all passionate about becoming the very best fighter pilots we could be and constantly worked hard at improving ourselves, but had a worse record at flying instrument approaches than almost any other group of pilots, civilian or military. Maybe some sailboat racers suffer from the same sort of mindset where they are more concerned about being the best dogfighter in the squadron than they are about honing such basic seamanship skills as knowing where they are and what lies just ahead. I'm not suggesting it as a way of criticizing them but more as a way of trying to understand how 9 top notch sailors could run their boat into an island.