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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About jtsailjt

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  • Location
    Penobscot Bay
  • Interests
    Cruising, traveling, motorcycling, archery, snowmobiling, lots of other stuff
  1. I want as small and light weight as I can get away with that will still reliably start the engine when my wife wants to go ashore alone, and I also want to be able to tip it (the battery, not the engine) upside down if possible so I can leave it permanently attached to transom of dinghy. I think that means AGM but what's the minimum size for a 20hp 4 stroke mercury based on anyone with a similar setup? I have the engine owners manual but am looking for a "real life" answer from someone with experience.
  2. Yup! Me too. I always liked the Shellback! It's Joel White design IIRC C'est vrai! I met Joel once back in the 80s. He was so kind and friendly I made it my mission to build one of his designs first. That's a great tender and a very fun sailor when you drop the hook in a quiet cove after a brilliant summer day of sailing. I only met Joel once also. Standing at the end of his boatyards dock at about 8AM on a still Sunday morning with nobody else around waiting for my friends to wake up and come in to shore in their dinghy to take me out to their B40 for the sail back to SW Harbor this quite tall, older guy came strolling out the dock and quietly enjoyed the view with me for a few minutes. I had no idea who he was, just seemed like a nice older man who was enjoying being close to the water and the peaceful beginning of a new day as I was. Eventually he asked what brought me to Brooklin (NOT what the hell you doing on my dock?) and I explained what I was doing and that my friends seemed to have overslept. He casually said, well why don't you row one of those dinghys (as he nodded towards the dinghy dock) out to your friends boat, and I replied (still no clue who he was) that I didn't have a dinghy here and wouldn't want to borrow one without owners permission. He said, it's OK, you can use any of those down there, just leave it on the mooring and I'll come out and get it later. So, still thinking it a bit odd for anyone to make such a statement, I thanked him and introduced myself and he introduced himself and the light finally came on. He'd already been diagnosed with cancer and only lived a few more years but based on that one chance meeting, I really wish I could have got to know him better. From everything I've heard about him, that's pretty much how he treated everyone, a really nice man!
  3. Everybody here loses their mind now and then, just part of what makes this place fun! Once you get your tank leak and bottom paint prep wrapped up, I could stand some help with varnishing removable parts I brought home, bottom paint prepping and painting, registering my new dinghy, researching what the best battery (size/ wet/AGM?) is for my new 20hp electric start dinghy outboard will be and purchasing/installing same, adjusting rollers on trailer to fit new dinghy, selling my old 15hp 4 stroke outboard on Craigslist, recommissioning all the systems, bending on the sails and checking/adjusting rig, spring cleaning after winter storage, installing a new vessel sink in aft head, installing permanent mounted oil change pump, installing new stereo with bluetooth, THEN I can start plugging away at installing our new Webasto Heater once our boat is safely on our new mooring......guess I won't be around here much for the next couple of (6?) months either! But welcome back, whenever you get the chance to stop by again! It's getting to be that busy boating time of year here in the north country! The above reminds me (thread drift alert!), since I've never had an electric start dinghy outboard before, what is the best battery to use? I've had and continue to have larger motorboats where weight isn't an issue and I'm a devotee to the bigger the better school of thought so use largish wet cells on them, but what to use for a new 20hp electric start outboard on an 11' RIB? I intend to eventually add a small automatic bilge pump and simple depth finder but wouldn't run the depth finder unless the motor was running. Also, if it rained enough for the bilge pump to flatten the battery, I could pretty easily pull start it to recharge the battery. I'd also like to permanently mount the battery up off the floor so even if the bilge pump failed it wouldn't get swamped unless the RIB entirely filled with water, and so I didn't have to remove it when offshore and the dinghy is removed from davits and placed upside down on foredeck. So, I've been considering an AGM battery that's about 2/3 the size of a normal car battery and mounting it against the transom on the port side so the top of the battery cover is just beneath the top of the transom. I don't know the size but to give you an approximate idea, on the packaging it says it's for use in jet ski's. Would anyone advise me to stay away from AGM batteries for this application? What am I not considering? Better options? Thanks!
  4. BTW, just found the ignore function and it works great, completely invisible! I like "excessively ambitious" people just fine, just as long as I can sense that it's not complete BS. In my past life I was a fighter pilot and after a while noticed that most of the outstanding ones knew very well that they were good and it's pretty hard to completely hide that you know that about yourself. Then, there were a few who talked the talk but just couldn't walk the walk and their attitude became tiresome because it was so far from what we both knew in our hearts was reality, BS artists. In another field we're all familiar with, whether he happened to be short or tall, Bob Perry would sound like an idiot if he tried to say he was just an average naval architect. I just couldn't buy that as sincere and it would bug me if he tried to pull that off. Off course he's damn good at what he does and he didn't get that way by not having ambition or working long and hard. The other naval architect I'm familiar with and consider to be outstanding is Chuck Paine. Like Bob, he doesn't go around bragging about how great he is all day, but you get the sense from both of them that they know they're very good at what they do and worked hard to get to that point. I couldn't tell you Chuck's exact height, he's not big, but he's got a very laid back style with a great sense of humor, just like a lot of tall and accomplished folks have, and I've never heard anyone say they didn't like him or that he had an obnoxious ego. I've seen short, overly ambitious folks with little mans disease, always to prove to themselves that they're better than they know they are in their hearts, but I also know quite a few short people who are very accomplished. So, when I meet a short person who initially seems to have more ambition than seems appropriate, before I assume it's little mans disease, I step back and watch them for awhile and very often find out that their ambition and high self image is well justified. Good for them!
  5. Yes. You keep saying so. I taunted him out of his closet. He's mine to keep. The rest of you may use him, but he's mine. Yes, I know. That's the third time you've said so. He belongs to me. Hey tool, you don't "own" anyone and nobody "belongs" to you. Just because *your* perception of the ignore function is a "surrender", doesn't make it so. So far, you've offered nothing of value since your arrival. That marks you as a Class 1 Troll. Keep flapping that pretty little mouth of yours, and soon you'll find that you're the only person you have to talk to. No need to ban you when everything you say, can be reduced to "You have ignored this user. Click to read this post?" By quoting him, you force others who have used the ignore function to see his posts, which is his goal. You're correctly identified him as a troll and everyone knows that the first rule of trolls is don't feed the troll....nuff said.
  6. Newt invited us to post it, so we posted it. It's a good thing that it was posted. Clearly demonstrates what a self centered twit we have in Newt. It's absurd that he thinks any of us give a fuck that he intended to take up a personal crusade against SA, boycotting sponsors, etc. Personally, I thought his letter threatening organizing a boycott was one of the most creative and fun parts of this thread. Imagine the absurdity of someone using their valuable time calling or emailing other people all over the world trying to persuade them to not have anything to do with a sailing forum because occasionally, interspersed with sailboat pix and discussion, someone posts tits or tells someone else to fuck off or HTFU! The horror! If he actually followed through, I've got a feeling we'd suddenly find ourselves with lots of new members who have absolutely NO interest in sailing but do have an interest in those which offend Newt! It looks like he probably won't follow through with his boycott attempt, but it was a nice thought!
  7. I think that the "Private" part of PM should be respected in almost all cases, and no matter how outrageous/silly/stupid the rant is, except when someone is actually threatening you. I got warned for that at CF when I made a post suggesting that Scoobydoo's method of going cruising with almost no knowledge and being totally dependent on a constant internet connection was apt to not end well, and he responded via a PM threatening to look me up and commit violent acts against me, and he sounded serious! When someone threatens to kill or do you physical harm (and they really don't seem to be joking), I think the best way to end that behavior is to expose it to the whole community and let everyone judge for themselves. At CF the mods warned me for posting Scoobydoo's threat to me and told me I should have told them instead, but I've just never been a believer in going to "the authorities" when I could handle it myself. I think that when someone has one persona when publicly posting, but another entirely different one in private, AND they cross over that line of threatening violence,they deserve for everyone to see, in their own words, just what a whackjob they really are.
  8. I'm a little embarrassed to admit I haven't managed to get kicked off CF yet, but the schoolmarms have felt the need to speak sternly to me twice so I must be on the right track! Congrats to you Smack on your recent banishment though, glad to see you're somehow managed to survive the humiliation. Future CF Bendytoy sinking threads (and lots of others too) won't ever be the same without ya!
  9. We plan to be there near opening time on thursday. Need bottom paint, new 11' RIB, 20hp outboard, new fender covers, and who knows what else we'll see that we just can't live without?! I've ordered lots of stuff from there but am excited about visiting the store for the first time!
  10. As many have correctly pointed out, once you're in contact with the dock, spring lines and a little prior planning can usually make a thruster unnecessary, but on a cruising boat without a spade rudder, I ran into a situation last summer at a marina where a bow thruster made all the difference. A narrow channel with another boat tied up so its transom extends well beyond the end of the dock so a 120 degree right turn will be necessary to proceed down another narrow channel to our assigned slip, and with a crosswind from the right so a certain amount of speed would be necessary to have enough rudder effectiveness to make that turn. Go too slow and the rudder won't turn the boat. Go slow and use reverse to try to swing the stern to port but while you're doing that you're being blown steadily towards another boat on the left side of the channel that's not far away. Go too fast and your turn radius is too big so you hit the outside of the turn. I know, why put yourself into such a situation? But when I called on VHF and was assigned the slip, nobody mentioned how narrow the channels in the marina were and apparently they hadn't noticed the boat parked on the inside of the turn extending out into the channel I was turning into and I couldn't see any of that until I was well into the first narrow channel. I honestly don't know whether I would have made it around that tight corner without a thruster but having one sure made a big difference and lowered my stress level. Then, we were assigned the second slip after the tight turn so with a thruster I was able to continue to pivot and pull directly into our slip without having to use reverse to spin the boat. If the turn had been a left handed turn so I was turning against the direction the prop would push me in reverse, the bow thruster would have been even more necessary. I don't run into situations like this very often, but once in a great while, it's surely a nice thing to be able to spin the boat in it's own length, even in a crosswind that's trying to prevent you from doing that.
  11. I don't think you are as small a minority as all that but it IS what the sailing mags would have us all believe. I got to know one of the Cruising World Boat of the Year judges several years back and his boat is set up a LOT more like Hawk than any of the boats that every year he declares are "the best" cruising boats available. The well thought out choices he has made on his own boat (that he has staked his life on many times during his circumnavigations) tell me a lot more about how he really feels about what's important than the words that he gets paid to write. I've found myself actually laughing out loud when I read some of those reviews because the features they rave on about aren't features they have on their own boats. Part of that may be because they can't afford it, but I suspect that a lot of it is driven by the knowledge that if you want to keep the CW boat of the year gig, you can't say that most of the boats evaluated are completely unsuited for long distance cruising and you wouldn't be caught dead on one in the middle of an angry ocean. I used to get a little frustrated with Bob's reviews for that same reason...until I learned a little more about his "wry" sense of humor and gained the perspective that's necessary to read them properly. But the mainstream boating press definitely does all it can to promote the "more gadgets aboard the better" attitude, as their advertisers require them to. I still have faith that many of those boaters with more than a few thousand miles under their keels can see through a lot of it. That said, we're all individuals and at different times of our lives want different things out of our boat/home so even in the same person, what compromises the "perfect boat" can vary quite a lot over time and that's all perfectly OK.
  12. I really like the looks of that boat, both inside and out. The kid is obviously taking good advantage of a once in a million opportunity to study under a true master during his most formative years. Lots of really good questions here but I'm assuming that if Bob says he's good, then of course the hard dodger is an appropriate height and the cockpit seats are long enough to lay out on, etc. But the one thing that comes to my mind is the location of the one head. Certainly it's a question of personal preference but worth discussing the pro's and cons. You mention that "do you really need to walk to a stern head to piss in the middle of the night," maybe not from the "pissers" perspective, but your wife might enjoy not being awakened by the sound of pissing and flushing very close to where she is attempting to sleep, either by you or by any overnight guests you have onboard. My former boat was a Nordic 44, also with only one head located aft, which allowed for a very nice, large forward cabin with plenty of room to stand up while getting dressed and a small sink/mirror vanity. Originally, it had a small second toilet under the hinged settee top but I removed that along with the accompanying forward holding tank and plumbing. It gained me a fair amount of storage space and removed any chance of getting even a whiff of unpleasant smells while sleeping or "napping." I did like having the small vanity with sink up there because it allowed for the personal items (toothbrush, contact lense case, makeup, etc.) in the master cabin to be close at hand and available while getting ready for bed or in the morning, while others were using the head, located at the foot of the companionway. I consider the Nordic 44 head configuration and location to be just about ideal for an aft cockpit in this size range. Offshore, it's easy to access from both the cabin and the cockpit and you don't have to walk through the whole saloon in your wet foulies to get to it. With a molded shower stall partially tucked in underneath aft of the companionway, it doesn't take up a lot of useful saloon space. If you put both the head and galley on the same side, it cuts way down on plumbing runs all over the boat and allows multiple uses for thru-hulls in this area, cutting down on the number of thru-hulls needed. Offshore, the molded shower stall can double as a wet hanging locker right where it's most useful. With an Espar heater outlet in that shower, the oncoming watch can begin each watch in completely dry, warm clothing and they will naturally don their foul weather gear just outside the head, at the foot of the companionway steps, where their movements and bumping around aren't likely to awaken or disturb other sleeping crewmembers. However, I do love the very nice galley in his drawing and would hate to lose that. I also realize that removing the head from the forward cabin and re -inserting the head just aft of the galley would push the whole main saloon forward so the mast would become an obstruction to peer around while seated at the table. Not sure if it could be done while keeping that nice galley, or whether you or Will can be persuaded it's even desirable? But just for fun I'd really like to see a version drawn that way.
  13. +1 Take a look at the Sydney to Hobart race or any other big boat distance race outside or the Volvo. None of those 60 footers hit the line with 9 guys to race balls out 24/7 for days on end. You bet any of them can do any job on the boat. During most of the race each of the 9 struggle to do their own job and non sailing task assignments there is only so much time and physical energy in the day. Here is the junior lightweight on the boat... Team Vestas Wind Trimmer, data processing & food (Under 30) Peter Wibroe He speaks: Danish and English. Who he is: Pete has a solid background in match racing. He was a crew member of the SAP Extreme 40 and has competed in the Melges 32 and RC 44. And he has a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences with a master’s degree in nanotechnology. Pete’s bachelor of nanotechnology thesis topic was: “Exploring encapsulation efficiency in single vehicles by passive transport across bilayers around phase transition.” http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENPW1 Once again, a very impressive resume and clearly a very intelligent and accomplished guy, but it doesn't even mention any qualifications as a mariner other than as a match racer. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I think it supports my initial suggestion that many of the crew were more racing specialists than all around seamen. Rather than being generalists who are proficient at all the sorts of things that most people who cross oceans are, many of the crew are specialists whose role has always been to make a boat go fast and possibly that's part of the reason why nobody else aboard happened to take a look at the chartplotter and notice they were heading for an island. In a previous life I was an F-16 pilot. In those days almost everyone who got to fly a F-16 was a least in the top 10% of his initial pilot training class and then you competed constantly against all of your peers to try to be the best. As a F-16 pilot you were required to maintain proficiency at air to ground, close air support, air to air, and interceptor missions against all sorts of adversaries, and stay up to date with ever evolving tactics and weapons, and of course things were always happening/changing at a rather fast pace on every single training mission. It was very challenging and rewarding and fun! However, a disproportionate number of F-16's were crashing and killing their pilots while flying a routine instrument approach, something the guy who finished last in his pilot training class could do just fine. A very good pilot who was my best buddy while we were in F-4 training class together was killed a few years later in an F-16 while flying instruments at night in nonchallenging conditions. The F-16 had adequate instruments but not great instruments, it was designed to win dogfights and drop bombs, not fly instrument approaches. Still, one would think that this group of some of the best fighter pilots in the world would be able to reliably fly a routine instrument approach in the fog without killing themselves and crashing the airplane. It turned out that the problem wasn't primarily with the instruments or even the reclined seating position causing vertigo, though both of those factors probably had some effect, but was more that fighter pilots tend to take great pride in making themselves into the best dogfighters or bombers in the squadron, but many considered working at refining their instrument flying skills to be not cool. If there was extra fuel left at the end of a training mission, nobody ever said "I think I'll fly an extra ILS approach just for practice." In other words, we were a community of pilots who were flying one of the most technologically advanced airplanes in the world, had well above average talent, were all passionate about becoming the very best fighter pilots we could be and constantly worked hard at improving ourselves, but had a worse record at flying instrument approaches than almost any other group of pilots, civilian or military. Maybe some sailboat racers suffer from the same sort of mindset where they are more concerned about being the best dogfighter in the squadron than they are about honing such basic seamanship skills as knowing where they are and what lies just ahead. I'm not suggesting it as a way of criticizing them but more as a way of trying to understand how 9 top notch sailors could run their boat into an island.
  14. Yeah go ahead, will not work offshore, shows your experience. Bullshit LeoV - what sort of phone do you have? Mine has a gps and one app for example is called navionics....it works offshore - at least i have been there....you sucker can even charge it on 12v - but maybe you dont know what this is either.... I don't know if it's supposed to work without a cellphone or wifi signal but I tried using my iPhone 4s with the Navionics app inflight by propping it up against the windshield and it didn't work.
  15. Interest points indeed I don't have any money at the moment, but I've got a stack of Mt. Gay hats. I'm willing to put one up (you can pick any year between 1998 - 2013 if you win) and bet that every one of those guys is capable of doing every job on the boat including captain and navigator. You would lose your money. A lot of the crew members are professional dinghy sailors. Some of them never sailed long offshore races, or even set foot on a yacht. These people are hired because they have proven themselves to be very talented and competitive. It doesn't mean they all have the knowledge and expirience to safely navigate a boat across the ocean. To qualify as a skipper is even more difficult. A skipper is a manager as well as a sailor. A lot of pro sailors shall never qualify as skippers, no matter how many times they sail the VOR. Remember how pro sailor Michel Desjoyeaux failed in the Mapfre team. The Volvo alone is 38,000 sailing miles. None of these men step off of dinghy onto a Volvo. They all have been a part of many big boat campaigns and distance races. The crews of the Volvo boats have more Ocean Big Boat Sailing and Racing after the first leg than the overwhelming vast majority of sailors you will ever have the chance to stand in a room with. One Volvo alone would be greater than the equivalent of 50 Old School SORC or every Chicago Mac ever sailed. jtsailjt you are clueless when it comes to the hired help on these types of boats. What is outlandish is these guys are sailing these massive machines 24/7 for days on end with 9 guys. Everybody is more than capable of doing everything on the boat and much more plus most can go out an whipass on any one design fleet. Here is a sample "dingy" resume.... Wouter Verbraak - a world class yachtsman. ​ He has skippered HUGO BOSS in the Barcelona World Race, he has sailed several iterations of the Volvo Ocean Race, Americas Cup, Oryx Quest, and Tour de France à la Voile, won the Admirals cup, TP52 MedCup, Middle Sea Race, Cape Town to Bahia Race and the Sydney to Hobart, co-skippered the Elanders and Avant boats in the Volvo Baltic Race and he has advised sailors on strategy and weather in the Vendee, Route du Rhum, the Jaques Vabre and the Olympics.  After almost ten years of dinghy and big boat sailing on Melges 24, Mumm30, IMX 38 etc, Wouter then got his big win being part of the Dutch Admiral's Cup team in 1999, winning the Offshore World Championships. ​ A year later after completing his Masters Degree in Sydney on sea breezes, Wouter got picked up by Jean Yves Bernot and Knut Frostad, to be the co-navigator in the djuice dragons Volvo Ocean Race campaign; the start of his professional sailing career.  Since then, Wouter has worked for ten years building up his skill set from weather and strategy specialist to electronics and data-analysis in the America's Cup and TP52 classes, and built up a vast amount of ocean racing experience in two Volvo Ocean Races, more than ten Atlantic crossings, and getting top results in most of the Ocean Racing Classics. ​ In 2011 Wouter showed his leadership talents by skippering the Hugo Boss in the double handed Barcelona World Race. Wouter certainly does have an impressive racing resume but it doesn't mention any sailing other than in organized races. But my point wasn't really to criticize Wouter because there's been plenty of that already and I understand that there's a chain of events that could potentially lead to almost all of us running into a charted island. No doubt he screwed up big time but who hasn't? Fatigue, change in plans/routing, software, screen size, and probably other issues none of us have even thought of all contributed to Wouters lack of awareness of the island. If you reread my post, i was referring not so much to the captain and navigator, but more to the rest of the crew to raise the possibility that the crew may have only a very few savvy mariners and the rest were racing specialists who didn't have much experience with the more routine habits and tasks involved in overall good seamanship. But if you are right, and everyone aboard these boats knows everyone else's job and practices overall good seamanship, then WHY did none of the other crewmembers take a look at the chart and ask why they were headed for a reef? I think it's because that wasn't considered to be their job and it might even have been considered a faux pas to be "tinkering" with the navigators screens or questioning his routing (after all, as you pointed out, he's got a VERY impressive resume as a navigator!), and despite some of them having many ocean crossings under their belt, they had never had to be involved in basic navigation so never bothered to check on the boats intended course, just took it or granted that somebody else had that covered. In the hundreds of posts about this incident, I've seen plenty of fingers pointed at the captain and the navigator, but very few seem to be putting much blame on the rest of the crew. Why is that? After all, according to you they are all accomplished mariners and yet each of them just allowed his boat to run into a charted island! I think they correctly aren't being much blamed because it's well understood that they were doing just what they were good at and were hired to do, making the boat go faster than the other boats in the fleet almost as if they were involved in a dinghy race on steroids, but NOT participating in navigation decisions or regularly checking on their position as good seamanship demands that any watchkeeper do. I realize it's an ultra competitive environment and to have a chance at winning, making the boat go fast ALL the time is super important, but I think that this accident shows that it's not wise to compartmentalize important tasks like basic navigation to the extent this crew must have done. If you disagree, how else do you explain all 9 guys apparently not even being aware of an island right in their path?