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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Groucho Marx

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  1. There is merit in what you say, sclarke, but aside from the foiling Moth, where are more examples of revolutionary monohull development? There are the foiling European, mainly French 60s but even they don't compare with similar sized multihulls in development or speed; also they're not good to windward - something that is quite important in AC racing? And a big 60 foot foiling Moth? With no ballast? Nothing like that exists.
  2. A question: why would a team, easily the most original and innovative in design, boat handling and control in the last AC ... want to toss away all that hard earned expertise ... for a retrograde monohull ... and have to start all over again?
  3. Pearls before swine. Stinger?
  4. You know more about M1 than I do, Alcatraz. Wish I'd taken a photographs when we saw her. I thought the foil (one or two, I don't know) exited near the waterline - but then M1 was heeling over when we crossed and i couldn't figure out the foil setup. Maybe, thinking back, there was only one asymmetric foil that slid across the boat at/near WL? Would be educational if Simon Hull would enlighten us. Maybe they're embarrassed? But seeing the boat definitely got our attention.
  5. You're so full of righteous and precious indignation, Jay, you miss the content of what is being discussed. The point is, a whisper in your shell-like ear, (so don't have a heart attack or brain seizure), is that the Waitemata is unsuited for deep draft keel boats. That is the point. Comprehend. And another voice in your little hearing orifice, I like monohulls, have done many racing and cruising miles in them, even designed and built the "infamous" Cox's Bay Skimmer (see photo) - but admittedly it has multihull-like appendages, meaning T rudder and dagger, and two small chord wing masts) - oh, take that back, because I hear you leaping for high horse Moth foiling defense. You really need to take some deep breaths.
  6. Ha. Blinkered, rigid and narcissistic world. Even coming from bigoted, arch conservative you, Jay, that is beyond extreme?
  7. Really? You obviously don't know the Waitemata. Actually high tides can be as low as 2.4 metres, but the average is around 3m. Still over dramatic? This is typical of tide 5 hours out two kilometers or so above the Harbour bridge, central Auckland; work it out.
  8. Where does he mention everyone loves foiling? That's your problem/hangup, cobra. Common knowledge seems to be that foiling is too difficult for the mainstream to understand or practice. But that is what is occurring in modern yacht development ... and the winners of the AC know that. You think/dream that they're going back to deep draft dungas. Not going to happen. Cheers. Jay, I thought it was clear that these words were from Richard Gladwell. However he is right and many agree with him, including me. Main point being that the inner Auckland harbour is unsuited for the AC and that it will have to shift to deeper, wider water. And even more so if the fantasy old guard monos draw 4 metre plus with pendulum keels? And you may not realize that the Waitemata has tides ranging from 2.6 to 3.7 metres - and even more with on shore winds.
  9. To the neanderthal-ic monohull deep draft thowbacks; a few words of advice from New Zealand's Richard Gladwell: The speculation over what will happen in Auckland is also bubbling away with plenty of comment but not much sense. For sure the regatta will be held in Auckland, and in February 2021 - which is only three and a half years after Bermuda. A bit of quick work with Google Earth will tell you that the Waitemata harbour is about half the width (and even less at low tide) of the Great Sound in Bermuda - and that was tight to accommodate America's Cup racing. Going off North Head drops you in behind the influence of Rangitoto in a sea breeze (a very common wind direction in February) - which will make the racing a complete lottery. And if you think that doesn't matter, try sitting in the traffic heading into Devonport on a Saturday - on the most congested road in New Zealand. Fans might put up with that for a once off Volvo Ocean Race start - but not on a regular basis of sitting in a car for four hours to see 40 minutes of racing. Further out into the outer Waitemata harbour is the only sensible option. Turning to the boat type - keelboat vs. catamaran - a factor that seems to be overlooked with the former is Auckland's three metre plus tides, which will require dredging for a keelboat base location. Dredging and harbour intrusion is very difficult to get through a planning process, with sailors being at the forefront of protest action on previously mooted projects. A catamaran is much more practical, as they can operate in the normal Auckland harbour water depth - without any need for dredging. The other big advantage of catamarans (but for the same reason) is that other locations around the course such as Gulf harbour, Tamaki Estuary and other marinas can be used, which are not suitable for other than relatively shallow drafted keelboats. There is plenty of existing infrastructure which can be used without the need for new facilities. Getting the teams out of the central City for the Cup build-up also has the advantage of the crews not having to battle with Auckland's rush-hour traffic - which is in full flight at 6.30am. It also reduces the pressure on the need for inner city accommodation with the price gouging that invariably occurs with major sailing regattas, significantly increasing the cost for visiting teams. Besides which those involved in the selection of the boat should be listening to the views of new generations of sailing fans and not hitting system reset on a type of boat which has grabbed the attention of a much wider sailing audience.
  10. Here is a wing mast I drew up for some enthusiast - but don't think he got round to building it; 400mm chord - quite moderate imo. Uni-carbon is later laid up the widest part of mast. I cut the full sized frames where the I beam goes, then lay out, glue leading edge frames on the I beam. When glue cured attached the rear section same way, then skin. My way is to glue to leading light timber then bend. You have to coat inside mast skin with epoxy and glues, then bend and staple when wet. Second shot is Flash Harry with 460mm mast chord.
  11. This is a decent? chord 460mm x 9.3 metre wing mast built in old fashioned bent ply with internal I beam plus outside carbon reinforcing. Weighs less than 30 Kgs with modern rigging. How old? Used to be on Flash Harry so that makes it going on 36 years old and still going strong.
  12. Rob. Frog with rig and foils weighs 126.5 kgs ... without sails. But the new increased float size will push this figure up a few kgs. Main hull and dagger weighs 56 kgs. Hence we could do the stealthy/sneaky early morning shift. Beam weighs 28.5 kgs Platform beam overall is 7.4m. counting the outfacing foil tips. D mast is 9.57m tall. Double luff main will be full mast height.
  13. Further to the information regarding early "DSS" - before it was invented; there was a superb Murray Ross monohull named M1 in Auckland, owned by the Hull family (Simon Hull, very well known owner/skipper of the ORMA 60 Vodafone/Frank/formerly Michel Desjoyeau's Geant), well, 15 years ago, maybe more, we were beating up the Waitemata in my trifoiler and going the other way was M1 .... with angled leeward foil exiting just below waterline and set at around 30 degrees, maybe even less. Later I talked to NZ designer Brett Bakewell-White who was horrified that the Hulls had butchered the famous Ross design. Not an advanced thinker BB-W, just joking. Apparently the foiled M1 didn't work as well as the hydrodynamicist Hull father intended and later the two foils were removed and the boat became the classical M1 again. But it seemed to sailing okay when we saw it. My point: was this boat ahead of the Wellbourn DSS? And I'm sure there are other stories of near horizontal foils attached to monohulls. And of course the French were putting inverted Y and T foils on multihulls in the 1980s.
  14. A 40 metre version of this minimalist 6.5 metre foiler with double luff main and D shaped mast would be as light as a proa, probably faster (or as fast) and be easier to tack/shunt?
  15. Think you are wrong there, Barfy, this will go down no more differently than the dastardly and unneighbourly underarm bowling incident of yesteryear?