• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

0 Neutral

About atwinda

  • Rank
  1. Sail Material/Fiber Choices and Design???

    You need to decide on what YOUR priority is- Do you want a sail that is going to last for years and years? Is shape retention really a concern (slash are you racing competitively?) Do you care about that "cool" factor? I'd guess that for a salesman to suggest a dacron sail for a corsair, you must have expressed longevity (club racing at the most) and budget as primary concerns. Triradial and paneled sails are both still paneled sails, you need to get into 3DL or 3Di for a single piece sail (maybe UK is trying to make single piece sails?) Ultimately gluing and stitching panels together will result in the draft of the sail moving aft- regardless of what it's made from (tape drive etc.. still glued and or stitched together panels). The fiber is plenty strong, but a film to glue to film bond just has it's limitations no matter what they say. Radian is a good product - if offers much more than any other woven fabric can offer. Truly uncrimped warp fibers are a completely unique selling point in the dacron segment. While other fabrics (ProRadial) made a solid effort, their construction does not match the expectation or intention. Having sailed on Corsair's in the past, I can say in absolute certainty, that even a mylar laminate (carbon or otherwise) sail will lose it's shape quickly. In fact, a much larger factor in the shape of a full battened sail for a multi is the quality of the battens. RBS are an ok start, but when it comes to performance, not the ultimate solution- make sure you are getting at least RBS. My recommendation is that you make a realistic assessment of your goal. Radian will suit you fine if you're going out to have some fun and race every once in while- so will a paneled and taped laminate sail. If absolute shape holding is your goal then 3Di is your only option, but if cost is a major driver, then likely out of the question. Now, to Mizzmo's comment on how hard it is to understand the load on a tri puts on a sail- Who are you going to put more faith in- a couple of guys, or the collective design group who cater to everything from the Weta all the way to the Deed of Gift Oracle trimaran and Alinghi catamaran (I use those examples as they were significantly more loaded sails than the current AC class)? You wan to talk about understanding load- probably should trust the folks with the real tools and materials engineering to build the sails correctly given the application- everyone else are just throwing darts.
  2. Artemis?

    WHO CARES? they aren't IN the game in the first place (I don't know if you missed the race #2 where they where a no-show?). Why should two teams make concessions for the other two teams who missed the design mark? Why should they have sympathy for Artemis? So far they have gotten every aspect of this cup incorrect. It's not like Artemis is there on a sponsors dime, they only have one B to answer to, and while he will be a bit upset, it's not like they will be denying the ROI that ENTZ sold it's government/sponsors.
  3. Artemis?

    Seriously? It's about setting precedent and not standing for changes they have every right to oppose to (for whatever damn reason they might choose). IM intentionally/unintentionally changed the protocol without 100% consent from the participants and that is against the rules because he decided that was the way it should be. I'm sure he has advisers to his actions, and they must have foreseen this as an issue. I truly doubt ETNZ or LR really give a shit about the rudders, but you're blind if you can't wrap your head around the fact that they are after that protocol is strictly adhered to. Plain and simple. You can't "Spin" that any other way. The fact is, someone changed the rules and they did not have the power to do so. Secondly- NO/PC state that they built FOUR rudders, and "cannibalized" two of them "in good faith" to meet to the rule suggestions (at the time). Meaning, they still have TWO more rudders that measure in under the non-cheater rules. I don't understand how PC can stand up in front of a press conference, or send an e-mail stating that if the rudder rule is now altered they can't race. seems like this team needs a unified voice. additionally, ETNZ (or LR) owe nothing to Artemis, why should ETNZ care if Artemis make the line at all? ETNZ put a plan in place to have a boat ready for racing, and they've done exactly that. Artemis and whoever's decision making only have themselves to blame for not being able to show up to the starting line. PC's line about "ETNZ are trying to make it impossible for us to race" is total crap. Artemis made the decisions that have ultimately lead to where they currently are a LONG time ago, and they simply got it wrong. It's time they sucked it up and owned up to that fact rather than point the blame at ETNZ for trying to eliminate them.
  4. Artemis?

    WOW! PC needs a better PR person. His post capsize presser was terrible, and this... this is just unreal. PC of all people is saying that HIS an RC's own vision of racing 70' multis is too dangerous... then subtlety blaming ETNZ cost conservative reasoning for there not being a smaller version of the wing. Paul- get fucking real. Your design teams engineering cannot claim "well this was outside of our design range" when the "big" wing was included in that from the get go, and it appears that you're the only team that built a san diego boat knowing that the americas cup was in fucking san francisco. if they were so short sighted to engineer the beams for a very limited set of conditions, everyone "in the know" should have expected boat one to fold. NOW boat two- you had PLENTY of time to re-engineer the beams- no excuses. Face it- the artemis program is a complete failure, and have no credit to being the challenger of record- especially since their shit boat can't even make the start line. While I truly hope that we get to see two ac72s line up for the americas cup, I hope artemis and oracle have good defense lined up for potential law suites. etnz seem to have designed within the range of the class rules, and can only point the finger at any team who isn't in the ball park having known it was SF three or four years out.
  5. Artemis?

    The bull shit going around here has reached an all time high! and that's saying a LOT. For one- The teams are going to continue to sail the AC72s. Simply put, lets say Oracle put it out to the teams "The AC 72s are too dangerous, we need to change boats". ETNZ who have a thoroughly tested platform are going to tell them "we'll see you in the water in AC72s, or in the court." Oracle wouldn't stand a chance in that court battle. Oracle would have to prove that they endorsed and built an inherently unsafe class, they where wrong, and forced etnz, LR, atremis, and themselves to spend millions of dollars on researching, building, transporting, and sailing yachts which ended up just not being up to the task. GOOD LUCK. The guys in these teams have all signed contracts to be where they are, and I bet they've all included a waiver acknowledging the high risk they are subjecting themselves to. Those are common place. Hell, even I signed one for this years Transpac among other races. Pretending the sailors did not know serious injury or even death was/is a possibility from the onset of these campaigns is completely ignorant thought. EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU SET FOOT ON A SAIL BOAT IT'S RISKY. It doesn't even have to be an extreme boat or race, there was that mcgregor that swamped and killed a few folks in sd, not to mention the hunter that set it's auto pilot for north coronado island and motored into it in 0.0001 knots of breeze. LSC in san fran, etc.., countless people a year do not return from sailing. Those of you looking at stats should figure in that an ac72 is just another sail boat, and compare it along side the likes of every other sail boat related accident. Sailors train and prepare for this sort of thing, we are required to goto safety at sea seminars, etc.. where we are all made aware of the inherent danger that is the sport we all participate in. I know every time I leave the dock it could be the last. Why should it be any different for professional sailors in the AC? And you all should know that too- you can manage the risk, but ultimately, the ocean is beyond the control of humans, and we at it's mercy regardless of how well prepared we think we might be. Secondly, to those calling for a new class, or even the 45s, who the fuck are you to demand such actions? Unless you are funding a team crawl back into your hole and shut up. If you don't like what you see with the AC72s, then do the only thing you can and vote by watching or not. If you don't like it, you don't have to follow. Pretty simple- no one is making you sail or watch an AC72. The Americas Cup has gone on forever regardless of how many people where watching, what makes you different than that? I for one, and I am sure there are a majority out there, that DO NOT WANT anymore regulation in the way in which I or others are allowed to sail. The last thing we need as a sport is more fucking rules. Have any of you ever tried to explain the shit we do to a non-yachtie? The number one thing I have heard is "it's like you're speaking another language". How are we supposed to build a base of folks and get them interested in sailing when we can barely explain the rules!? So to those saying that the teams need to regulate, fuck off and leave it to the folks who are knowingly racing on the edge. BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THEY ARE RACING ON THE EDGE. They don't need arm-chair web douche bags telling them how to run an event said web-db is not at all involved in. regardless of how much you think you're little web post matters- it doesn't Just like my posts don't matter, and that I don't give a shit that it doesn't sink in to any dense headed know-it-alls, because nothing will ever change their stubborn opinions. Like I said, if YOU don't like it, DON'T watch it. But let those who want to be on the cutting edge, be on the cutting edge. I'm going to continue to watch, and I want it to be in the AC72s. I watched live as the chopper showed Andrew Simpson receive CPR on the dock, while dramatic as it may have been, it will not deter me from encouraging these teams from carrying on- and carry on they should!
  6. Artemis?

    A brief thought on some prevention measures others have suggested- strobes wont be very effective during the day (when ac 72s are racing) dye wouldn't be effective unless the person was submerged manual inflate/auto inflate- double edged sword, if you go in unconscious you want the auto, if you go in conscious, but under something wide or deep, you want manual. I doubt there will ever be a perfect solution to that. I think the only decent way to locate someone quickly (in this case) would be an infrared camera. I'd bet most parts of the boats wouldn't register very high being carbon, but the body of a sailor at peak heart rate would probably show up pretty quickly. I doubt you would carry it onboard the 72, but have it on the rescue boat with the divers. Hell, maybe they already have that. I truly hope cooler heads prevail and no rash actions are taken against the teams or event. canceling the event based off the supposed negligence of a structural engineering team from a singular team would be a bit pathetic.
  7. Artemis?

    What ? Of course the master troll douche bag of the century has something to say- Even hobie-cat sailors know to hold the jib cut to back wind the jib to help the bows through. I hope to god you're not about to bring forth a argument or disagree-ment about that- on the other hand, do it; it would only go to further prove you are absolutely completely clueless. and yes- possible factor in beam failure. loading and areas of reinforcement would drastically change from a fixed loading point (floating lead) to the case where load is applied to a direct point along a track across the entire track. all I am saying, is that they are different in the jib sheeting concept than the other teams- and you clearly have proven time and time again to understand very little about anything technical. So I don't know why you continue to take absolute stabs in the dark desperately attempting to prove you have a shred of intelligence, when it's abundantly obvious you do not. seriously though- has anyone noticed or pointed out to date that they have a self tacking jib, and some sort of end plate device under the tramp? that you decide to be a fucking troll about that. get fucked you stupid cunt.
  8. Artemis?

    couple interesting things to note: self tacking headsail. To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to this boat, to notice this before. I think this differs from all the other teams who use floating leads. This could mean no/less man power during tacks to re-sheet the headsail in... not sure if it would be a good thing to have it continuously trimmed during the tack... would assume the standard, back-wind during the tack to help get the bows through the wind would help, and then trim a little fat until up to speed, and then full trim on the new board. like I said- interesting. Could have been a factor in the beam failure? seams like a heavy system in comparison to floating leads. They have a white (possibly 3di, or cuben) end plate below the wing? Also- the comments about interchanging the fairing between boats. the pictures clearly show the frames being be bonded to the beam. I dont think they're coming off without a fight. not to mention, that every time I have ever designed something, I have been able to do it better the next time. why wouldn't they take advantage of what they learn from the 1st gen fairings and apply that to what has to be a much different boat 2? Can't be that hard to laser cut some new frames?
  9. Artemis?

    Oracle cut the bow section off USA 87 and replaced it, that's a pretty serious mod. Although interestingly enough those where the Farr / Juan k boats.. Oracle also majorily reconfigured bor 90 around 3 times? Once for the floats, and another for the wing sail... Prada also had a thing about changing bow sections in between lvc rounds... So major configure changes are par for the course. Move on, nothing to see here.
  10. Artemis?

    Interesting difference of opinion on head sails...
  11. Artemis?

    I had resolved not to get into technical debates any more, because of ignorant idiots like T-C, but as your post made me smile I couldn't resist passing one comment (even though T-C and other technically ignorant people will probably spurt BS back). W2 isn't as big a departure from W1 as you might think. Don't get suckered in by this debate of the proportion of area in each element. As Blunted pointed out ages ago, it doesn't make as much difference as people would believe. Believ eit or not, even what might seem like such a large change in distribution is only fine tuning. the real differences between, say, the ETNZ wing and the AR wings is the number of flaps in the back element, which remains at 6. It seems that AR continue to use the same control concepts, which are very different from ETNZ. I do see W2 as a refined version of W1. Ok, I will agree that I might have taken a step too far there. maybe not a radical departure, but a change in general philosophy for sure. And I'm not saying that to argue, but to concede that my post was a bit too strong.
  12. Artemis?

    Interesting that JK confirmed that W1 was not down to the specified weight .. So much for all the SA idiots who dimissed the obvious. Simon, can you please explain us again the superiority of their wing ? Seriously, please spare us the BS :)/>)) Did you fucking listen to the interview? Juan k is trying to save his job by saying that his team is in the first go and you can't expect anyone to get the strength or weight right the first time around. Seems to me that etnz built their TPT structures with a reasonable safety factor, and OR with in what they thought was a reasonable safety factor (in all due fairness, the boat nor the wing broke under sailing loads), and Artemis grossly misjudged the strength of their first wing, and first beams. You must be one dense mother fucker. Juan k says this wing is largely the same concept of the first, when that is so clearly not true. Everyone can plainly see that wing 2 is a radical departure of the overly complicated (Valencia special) wing1. Like I said, he's just trying to keep his cash flow going. Bottom line- you tornado-cat (notice once again I use your username and not a childish atempt of an insult) do not know a damn thing! Let alone how much the Artemis wing weighed when it was first constructed, or reconstructed. You may think you can speculate some conclusions, but to think Juan k saying wing 1 was originally was out of weight is fucking stupid. Juan k is a man despirite to keep his hand in the ac honey pot now that he shunned the only other venue he has been successful in (the vor incase you're too dumb, and we all know you are). Additionally- grant dalton is on record saying that cog was harder to hit than min weight. If you're adding weight (lead) to the mast head, it means you're under weight and its not distributed evenly. So no one is perfect in this picture. You're still dumb and grasping at straws to have a remote understanding of what's going on with these teams.
  13. Artemis?

    pretty sure you need an engine for off shore racing...
  14. Artemis?

    Moving it out so its new owner can take it to SoCal.
  15. Artemis?

    Behind who's eight ball ? yours? Not sure they will be too worried about that.. Plenty of time.. I totally disagree. Time is rolling by fast and they are still to sail. This is valuable development time and they are lagging IMO this lack of urgency should be of real concern to AR fans. Yup, I tend to agree. There are a million ways to lose a day and not even a single way to get one back. This is hurting Artemis. However, if they happened to have found the "correct corner" of the AC72 class rule, it may not matter all that much. It was the same with the first generation IACC boats. All the challengers were in one corner of the class rule and the defender was in a different (correct) corner of the rule. The result was that the challenger was smashed. We wont be sure of who got it right for some time probably. Pretty sure the only way the defender was in the "correct corner" has you put it, was not only did they build *THREE* boats but they actually went out and *SAILED* them. Artemis are grasping at straws. Sure they may have learned some lessons on building an ac72, and they obviously needed to, but what if any performance data do they have to put towards their second platform? They have nothing to compare their vpp data against! If sailing the tri was worth anything they wouldn't have sold it yet, so that data must mean relatively little. Etnz have 14 days worth (so far), and oracle 8 (and a major disaster) to shape their next platforms. All that being said, I hope these guys pull their shit together and use their boat!