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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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  1. Foilers: brushing off seaweeds?

    I recognise her. Isn't see the one who used to insert your rudders under the hull of your C after you launched?
  2. Larry's AC50 Circus

    More crap. Simmer isn't a designer and most of the rest aren't foil designers. The top foil designer at the moment has his own company in Spain and is designing foils for a wide range of customers. There are also others who are more than capable of designing foils for AC50's who would be free to do so. Who else? You seem to have missed the Artemis design team and with Artemis being one of the main movers behind the AC50 series, maybe they have been involved.
  3. Foilers: brushing off seaweeds?

    What with this and the original picture and comment, I am not sure if you are serious or making fun of the situation, because there is no way that would work.
  4. Larry's AC50 Circus

    I know 2 people who has seen and been running sims. Both believe that in certain conditions the AC75's will be quicker than the AC50's, downwind in terms of headline speed, but they think the 75's will be no quicker VMG downwind. They do not believe they will be faster around a course, although that depends on where the course is set because the 75's have to be able to sail in waves which the 50's never did.In most conditions, the 75's will be slower than the 50's. Foiling tacks will happen, but far higher up the wind range than on the 50. What makes it really tricky is not having as much control over the soft wing as they had over the hard wing. The soft wing adds significantly more drag in tacks. Not sure what you are saying here. on the 50's, rudder delta to get extra righting moment was used by all. They only had a 3 degree range, but that is enough to gain a reasonable and worthwhile amount. I am surprised that we haven't seen it on any beach cats like the A's. They also gained righting moment from the top of the wing by inverting it. This could only be done in certain conditions, but it made a big difference as well. The biggest challenge the 75's have is the soft wing. It cannot do the things that the hard wings did on the 50's. The ability to make the bottom fuller so they could depower up top or even invert it was something very special and which cannot be done on a soft wing. You don't need to see the sims to have a pretty good idea of the key differences between the AC50 and 75. What people sometimes seem to miss is the similarities. Once foiling, the 75 might as well be a cat because that is how the numbers add up. What ETNZ have created is a foiling monohull that sails like a cat. For me, it's the ultimate irony. While people celebrate the return to monohulls, we have something very different.
  5. Larry's AC50 Circus

    Are you talking about the new series by Ellison or the 2009 LV Pacific Cup organised by ETNZ. Both fit that description. Positive Nothing of the sort. Everybody except a few diehard ETNZ fans (and maybe ETNZ and LR) wants it t happen. The sailors certainly do and not for the money. Any fan of high speed racing should be begging for this series, as soon as possible. On this one Clean is wrong. Plans are far further on than most seem to want to believe. Maybe instead of writing crap one of you fanboys should go down to Core and see exactly what they have in their workshop. You might be in for a big surprise.
  6. Larry's AC50 Circus

    Every other sailing series lives alongside the AC. The big debate is over the "alternative" to the AC point. Alternative doesn't mean replacing the AC, or even that it is as prestigious. One thing is for sure. While it wouldn't be the AC, it would be the premier professional race series, the most spectacular race series and the fastest race series. Until AC34, I was never envious of AC sailors and I had no desire to take part. I would have given anything to get onto a team for the last 2 editions. If this happens, it would become the event I want to be part of. Anybody want to rob a bank? (joke.........I think.........well....... I will start doing the lottery!) Depending how the whole thing is structured, an AC50 series shouldn't cost any more than campaigning a TP52 seriously. The unknown is the cost of the boats. For Artemis, there is zero boat cost, but they need to pay for the one design rudders and foils (say $800,000 based on estimates from the campaign), control systems etc. I doubt it will be more than $2m, which is about what you lose on depreciation and sails on a top TP52 per year. You wouldn't need as many people - the TP52 has a crew of 12, so even if you were to have the same that would give you 6 shore crew, which I doubt would be needed because teams could share shore crew. Shipping around the world would probably be about the same. If Larry has got LV on board, there will be little to no cost for the events. Even if you said the costs were double a TP52, it would be chump change to these guys. There is a bigger issue for any team that hasn't got a boat and wants one of the ones not being used. What's a second hand AC50 worth? I think the answer is that if you have an AC50 and don't want it, you would give it away because it is costing you money and it has no use at all. If somebody else wants the responsibility of storing it, let them have it!
  7. Larry's AC50 Circus

    So imagine how good it will be with even better boats sailed by many of the best sailors in the best locations. Sounds like things are more developed and more public than I realised, assuming that Lerry Hellison is actually Larry Ellison! Based on this thread, it looks like we have some sailors, an event organiser, a sponsor and venues. People still want to believe it isn't going to happen? There is nothing as vicious as a "woman scorned"! Louis Vuitton has every right to be pissed at how the sponsorship of the next AC has happened. To not even get a chance to bid was a real slap in the face considering how LV had supported ETNZ in the past, such as with the LV Pacific Cup. Then there is the minor problem of whether ETNZ was in breach of their fiduciary duty in giving the sponsorship to Prada without a proper competitive bid situation, or at least without having checked the market. Guess the point is mute, because nobody is going to challenge it in court, but it looks like LV has found it's own way of getting even without going to court.
  8. Larry's AC50 Circus

    If you think there are any names in sailing that would draw an audience, then you are delusional. I can imagine the conversation now Non sailor to another non sailor "We must watch the new sailing series coverage because (insert famous sailor here) is in it" It doesn't matter if that sailor is Ben Ainslie, Pete Burling or anybody else for that matter. Individual sailors will never be why people will watch a series on TV. They are great sailors and they might be poster boys in NZ, but they are way off being the poster boys for the sport world wide. In terms of Olympic sailing, they are way off legend status Try winning 4 Olympic golds, like 2 people have done. One of those people also won the AC and is a multiple sailor of the year winner, 4 times to Pete's twice. Got to love that you write Ainslie off as only being 2010-2017. You do know he won his first Olympic medal in 1996, campaigned until 2012 while also sailing the AC and that he will be back next time. You seem to be the only person writing him off. You also seem to think it is relevant that that they are "one of the most successful in a class. Well, you are right about others being as successful but let's be clear. they dominated a class for 1 Olympic cycle. That really isn't anything that hasn't been seen before. Come back when they have dominated a class for, say, 3 Olympic cycles.
  9. US Sailing Olympic Submission for 2024

    This is an ill thought out, self serving set of ideas that cannot be adopted. Let's start with the team racing, which is clearly getting the US contingent on here excited, no doubt because it is an event they might stand a chance of doing well in. It cannot be adopted as an event in the Olympics because it isn't done in enough countries. We have seen this problem before, but the IOC stipulates that an event needs to active in a certain number of countries before it can be adopted. How many countries have team racing national championships, or the equivalent? I suspect there are only 2, the USA and UK. Then there is the issue of who is in the team. The idea that it should be made up of the competitors from other events is wrong. There has never been a link between being a world class sailor of Olympic classes and being able to team race. That means we won't see the best team racers at the Olympics, because according to the submission, the way you get into the team is through selection in a conventional, fleet sailing event. To be a good team racer, you need to practice, as a team. What Olympic sailor is going to want to take time out of their campaign in order to train for an event that isn't their real focus? I also have to doubt the appeal of TV coverage, how it would be done and how it would be made so non sailors can understand it. The offshore event is also badly considered. The optic of 2 people needing a very expensive piece of equipment is exactly what the sport doesn't need, only reinforcing the image of it being a rich, privileged sport. Emerging countries are going to vote this down pretty quickly as they struggle to be able to afford the more expensive classes we have now, never mind an offshore keelboat. It also adds significant cost to the venue as it needs hoists, berthing and all the other facilities that are needed for keelboats (one of the reasons they were dropped in the first place). As an event it is not likely to make for very good TV. What makes the Volvo so good is that it is edited highlights. For much of the race, if you go live, it would be really boring. An edited highlights program could be great, but the IOC doesn't like that sort of event at all. Then there is the issue of appealing to a wide range of sailors and in particular, to sailors of differing weights. This proposal severely limits the opportunities for people of above average size, or even of average size in western countries. They say that the bigger men and women can sail in the offshore class, but so can smaller people, so it is clearly discriminating on the basis of size. in other sports where weight makes a difference, there are usually events aimed at different weight groups (lightweight rowers). Why not in sailing? What's wrong with having events aimed at smaller or larger sailors, so long as they can be seen to be athletic. This proposal has nothing to do with what is good for the sailors. It is only about what is good for US Sailing and how they can address their shortcomings without tackling teh real issues with the USA.
  10. Larry's AC50 Circus

    I am not sure I can agree. Let's start with the easy comment, "Strike out the word "soft" ". Did anybody claim that had trickle down implications for sailing? If they did, I would have said that was BS as well. We already had wings. We learnt nothing new from having them in the AC and there hasn't been an increase in their use. There have been cases of innovation in the AC that has trickled down. A lot of modern boat fittings such as blocks and winches have their current design due to things learnt in the AC The most obvious thing has been film sails, such as 3DL, which offer far more than just a speed gain. The point I was trying to make is that you cannot use the "trickle down" card as often as some seem to use it. This soft wing seem to me to be a classic case of when we need to be highly suspicious of any trickle down claims. Before we begin to discuss sailing benefits, we know that a soft wing rig is going to cost something approaching double that of a conventional rig. To start with, you need the equivalent of 2 mainsails. The masts will be significantly more expensive because of size and the double track. Overall, we are looking at a very expensive option and for that to be something that will trickle down, it needs to come with some pretty big benefits. It's also not trickle down, because it is an iteration of development already going on. Despite the OTT press releases which claimed it was a "breakthrough sail design", all they have done is taken an existing concept and developed it for their own particular use. I call it "trickle up"!
  11. Larry's AC50 Circus

    More evidence you are either clueless or trolling. No team employed people simply to launch the boats, other than possibly the crane driver, although in the 2 teams i know of, this person also did other jobs in the maintenance department. W hen they had the ACWS, each team was limited to the number of support staff they could take so the sailors had to do most of the launching jobs.The only real additional cost was the crane. Look the cost of either leasing a crane for that period, or buy it and sell it afterwards. It is insignificant compared with the overall budget. Why is that different from a normal rig. In previous cups there were limits on the number of masts and teams did break masts. The difference with a wing is that it could be repaired, just like ETNZ did. If they had broken a conventional mast, it would not have been repairable in the timescales, leaving a team even more vulnerable. Consider TNZ in 2003. They ended up down to just one mast and there was always the thought that mast might fail as well. In the AC, there had been times before when a broken mast meant end of campaign. Contrary to what a few on here want to believe because they read it somewhere, the overall cost of the wings was lower than the cost of a full campaign with conventional rigs. The difference was that wings have a very high up front cost, but once made, they are relatively cheap to keep going. With a conventional rig, there are soft components, called sails, and these have finite life spans. Given the number of hours sailing that was done, the cost of new sails would have been huge. On top of that, you need a team of specialist sailmakers to look after a repair the sails. With the wings, that could be done by the regular boat builders. There are only 2 reasons why we don't have wings for the next edition. The first is that it was part of the deal with Bertelli. He did not want them. The other reason is that they felt they needed to be able to tow the boats out to the race course and you cannot tow distances with a wing mast. But they had a real problem. Soft sails are nowhere near as efficient and are far harder to depower without adding lots of drag. The ability to depower the wing, or even get righting moment from it by using reverse camber at the top, meant that the new boats were at a serious disadvantage compared with the AC50's. To counter this, we now see this soft wing concept, which will add significant expense. The trickle down argument for the soft wing is very weak. There is no application for it in one design racing. Why would anybody want to specify such an expensive solution for a one design? For any other type of racing, where handicaps are involved, if it has an advantage, the handicap system will need to be changed to take that into account and if the handicap system works, why would you spend so much more for something that gives you no advantage. The only people who will benefit might be those who sail very high performance foiling boats, which is a very small number. The other argument for a soft rig is that it is closer to what is seen in conventional yachting and therefore people can relate to it. I call BS on that. People who already sail understood wings, while those who didn't sail never seemed to have an issue with them. I remember the reaction to the AC72's and the "comeback"from non sailors. It was the first time I can ever remember sailing catching the attention of my non sailing friends who were so impressed by the boats. I cannot remember a single person even questioning the wings, compared with soft sails. Sometimes, you need to be able to read beyond the press releases and not believe everything they say.
  12. Larry's AC50 Circus

    How would Simmer know? There has been no official announcement! Why would the CEO of BAR be up to date with what's going on in Larry's new circus? Surely them can't have any interest in that series
  13. Larry's AC50 Circus

    Don't try to be a smart arse by parsing words. I said very clearly that I have no other information other than about the people I mentioned.That is completely different from what you are saying. It is you who is saying there are no big names. I have been pretty clear about who will be involved.
  14. Larry's AC50 Circus

    So what? I am sorry they don't keep you informed but I am not sure they consider that necessary. Correct Please explain why they need sponsors? Larry and TT are putting up the money. I am not sure if you are aware, but this is petty cash to them. More BS. There will be a British team, BAR. Larry is fielding a team. There will be others. The lack of national teams has never stopped people watching good sailing before. Lots of people in the UK watched the AC72's, even though there was no British team. Lots of people watched the 72's in other countries as well. I guess it doesn't cross your mind that if I were to say who told me they probably wouldn't tell me anything else. Your list is rather selective. Even if you want to believe that Ainslie won't do it (he will), it's hard to believe Larry would have anybody but Slingsby sailing for him. and there are plenty of others, although i don't have information on anybody other than those mentioned above. How about Goodie - 3 times Moth world champ, Olympic gold medalist and Artemis reserve driver. The list goes on. You have never needed major names in sailing to carry a series, because so few people know those names anyway. I would bet that a majority of people who sail would still not know most of the names you mention while non sailors have even less of an idea. Despite that, series such as the Extremes have done pretty well with a bunch of nobodies. I do not understand the hate. The AC50's are very cool boats. What's wrong with setting up a circuit for them. Being fleet racing, it's nothing to do with the AC and it will be spectacular. What's not to get excited about?
  15. Larry's AC50 Circus

    I have heard almost the same thing as A Class Sailor posted. No official announcements for some time yet, because they don't need to make them. The main players know what is going on. The way it was told to me is that only sailors from ETNZ and LR won't be taking part, which means no Jimmy, Ashby, Burling or Tuke. Slingsby will skipper the Oracle boat, Outteridge will helm Artemis with Percy, Barker will be sailing and Chris Draper will skipper a boat. Others want in and the current discussion is whether they can convert AC45's to be fair and competitive as they want more boats. I believe that the design work is finished, orders have been placed, work schedules are drawn up . Venues are being finalised. I'd put a lot of money on it happening. Time will tell.