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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About ScotDomergue

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  1. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Interesting. Is there a website for the boat?
  2. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Very interesting. I look forward to a close look, and to seeing the pedal power arrangement once that's ready. I'll let you know as my travel plans develop. In any case, I'll have plenty of flexibility to work around your schedule and convenience.
  3. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Brandon, what is the beam on the Skate 15? Approach to human power? Speed for human power in calm conditions (extended, not sprint)? I can imagine getting to PT sometime late March or after. I look forward to seeing interior and storage - and various other. Do you think she'd be adequate for minimalist blue water? Looks as though there is potential.
  4. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Keep in mind that I'm not all that interested in racing, rather in cruising using both sail and rowing. Sailing boats designed for racing need to go very fast, well beyond hull speed. They need big sail rigs and need to be wide and have significant weight as low as possible to stand up to those rigs - these micros (max about 18 feet LOA) are 8 feet wide and draft just over 3 1/2 feet. Max sail area for the micros, main plus jib, is almost 260 square feet, not counting spinnakker (up to an additional 211 sqft), on a tall mast. All this results in large forces pushing in opposite directions, needing great strength in the construction of the boat and resulting in greater weight. For the performance I want, none of this is needed and the stresses are much less: 4 to 5 knots in light winds, 6 to 10 knots in stronger winds. Light wind sails might go up to 150 square feet, but will probably be reduced to no more than 100 to 120 sq in winds above 10 or 12 knots (when the fast racing boats are just getting going!). Less beam is better for performance rowing or in very light winds, while more beam is better for increased load carrying and spacial comfort (as well as greater speed in higher winds). My current designs are 16 feet long and range from 36 to 66 inches beam. The beam I'll want (perhaps 44 inches?) is mainly determined by the need for a comfortable cabin with gear and supplies easily accessible. I believe that this beam, combined with appropriate hull shape, will provide fun sailing with adequate stability. This relatively narrow beam facilitates self-righting and righting by crew. Adequate hull strength is easily achieved with very light construction. The strength to resist impact damage is more challenging. Beam of 66 inches would allow mounting oarlocks on the hull rather than on outriggers as well as making it easier to hike out. Even at this beam, hull strength would be easily achieved. So, while the micros, mini-trans-at's and Skate 15 are interesting, they provide quite limited information related to my interests.
  5. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    So true! Always compromise! I enjoyed rowing my Marsh Duck loaded to 700 lbs. displacement at 3.5 to 4 knots for extended periods. She was also fun to sail and would go 7 knots (over theoretical hull speed) fairly easily. That's my current benchmark for doing both "decently". I think my current design would be close on rowing and would be a little more stable and plane more easily. I think the Angus sail-row-cruiser is excellent on this combination, but have decided that I don't want the complexity, weight and stresses inherent in a multi-hull. I expect that the newest Liteboat is also quite good, though, again, not up to the sort of cruising I have in mind, let alone crossing oceans. I think my current design may be comparable in rowing/sailing performance.
  6. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Interesting boat. Brandon, are you considering R2AK in this one? Big enough for 2 people for that distance? Seems Felix is more competitive. I'd love to go out with you next time I'm in PT! My current design isn't intended to be nearly so high-performance, but it should be self-righting when properly loaded with sails and perhaps spars stowed below - a bit like an ocean rowing boat. If out on the ocean with conditions getting really bad, riding to drogue, this would provide a significant margin of safety. In less extreme conditions her 1-person crew should be able to bring her back upright easily with sails up - as was the case with my Marsh Duck.
  7. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    The weights I define do NOT included gear and consumables beyond sailing and rowing gear. I expect my current design would be around 200 lbs, though perhaps a little more or less depending on what I decide about storage arrangements including access. This includes the boat itself, daggerboard, rudder, spars, sails, sliding-seat rowing system and small solar power system to run electronics (20 watts). I believe this boat could be capable of crossing oceans IF I ever decide I want to do that. And, as always, at this point it's experimental. Assuming I go ahead with it, the process will include: finalize initial design (probably on the minimalist side), build, equip (initially using things I already have: spars, sails, rigging, sliding-seat rowing gear, etc.), test (starting with simple day use, extending to short cruises, building up to very extended island and coastal cruising for months or years at a time), modify and further develop on the basis of experience (this would definitely include new, professionally made sails). If all this happens as I can imagine it, I believe the result would be a boat under 300 lbs (including sail & row gear and solar power system) that would be capable of making some ocean passages, probably of sailing around the world. Initial construction will be stitch & glue using top-end marine Okume. IF I eventually come to consider it worthwhile I might have one built from high-tech materials and techniques (carbon, kevlar, injection molding, etc.) and if that were successful it might become commercially available - a very small, niche market. Yes, I'm familiar with Liteboat, including their latest row/sail boat. Interesting boat, excellent for its intended use, but I do not consider it adequate for the sort of extended cruising I have in mind, nor for blue water.
  8. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    When I started this thread I was hoping to find an older production boat that would satisfy my desires: "I'd like to find a small, production, light weight boat with single handed blue water potential. Perhaps something like a smaller Moore 24. Perhaps 20 feet long and 1000 lbs., though even smaller might be OK. Ideas and suggestions will be greatly appreciated!" I found the discussion helpful. Others seem to have found the thread interesting and worthwhile. I believe that there are some older production boats that can satisfy most of the stated criteria. The Cal 20 is probably one of the best, though at 1900 lbs, it's significantly over my target weight. The Angus Row Cruiser is an excellent boat. It has been suggested before. I know and like Colin. He would NOT suggest it as a blue water cruiser! Nor is it available as a production boat. Unstated, but assumed in my original post, was that a production boat would be fiberglass, not wood - avoiding some of the problems inherent in wooden boat use and maintenance. Also I wasn't eager to design and build another boat at that point. My decision to buy and experiment with the SJ21 grew out of the exploration that included this thread. As noted above, my criteria changed slightly as a result of that experiment. I have concluded that there are no production boats that would suit me. Even with all the ideas suggested in this thread and boat designs available, I have seen none that I consider suitable and have therefore gone back to my own drawing board.
  9. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Update for those who didn't read a series of posts starting Dec. 17, 2017: Last July I bought an old San Juan 21 and cruised in Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands for over 3 months. This was an experiment to see how I would like it. In many ways I liked the boat and enjoyed my time aboard AND I realized that it was more boat than I want - too big and heavy, relatively slow rowing and not particularly fun to row. I came to realize that rowing is more important to me than I had realized, for a variety of reasons. I'd also like a boat small enough to move to above high tide line by hand (as I did with my Marsh Duck). I've sold the SJ21 and have been playing with designs, leaning toward 16 feet long with beam between 36 and 66 inches. I think that 36 to 42 inch beam would be best for towing behind my bicycle and a little better for rowing; wider could be better for more extended cruising. I can imagine crossing oceans in 42" or wider, though that has never been a primary intention. I would like to have ocean crossing capability in a boat I would use for extended coastal/island cruising, AND I might want to take it blue water cruising sometime. My left hip, replaced just over a year ago, is mostly recovered, but not completely. I need to walk more and may focus on hiking and backpacking this summer rather than boats. I doubt that I will ever want another boat of the sort most discussed in this thread (bigger and heavier than I want). I can easily see myself creating the smaller, lighter boat I've been designing, and cruising on her extensively. We'll see. Scot (op)
  10. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    It's been an evolutionary process, from Marsh Duck to smallish tri to the San Juan 21 this summer and now to a new design that aims to maximize positives and minimize negatives related to my quite particular desires. Forward cabin: allows a much larger cabin while still keeping the rowing position closer to LCB and good aerodynamic shape. Loading flexibility can be achieved by raising the sleeping platform a little. A large, comfortable sleeping platform can still be quite low, keeping windage and materials to a reasonable minimum. I enjoyed the comfort and flexibility of the cabin in the San Juan though didn't need nearly that much space for solo cruising. Yes, stitch and glue like the Marsh Duck. The "wings" on the Marsh Duck were primarily for hiking-out while sailing. They also made nice side tables when sitting on the cockpit floor. They facilitated mounting the small oarlock outriggers. The new boat will not have "wings"; the hull is already wider. I think the similar small oarlock outriggers will slide into holes built for them in the top of the hull, extending under the side decks, probably secured with SS bolts and wingnuts that will make them easy to remove quickly for sailing in more severe conditions. Trimarans, with 3 hulls, are inherently complex and heavy (compared to unballasted monos). They are less likely to capsize, but far more difficult to restore to upright when they do. Combining adequate structural strength with light weight can be challenging. They certainly have advantages, including performance AND, with a raised sleeping platform, allow flexibility in loading to achieve weight balance. They require more height. and therefore windage and materials, to achieve a larger, more comfortable cabin.
  11. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Here are a few concept drawings.
  12. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    I've completed drafts and analysis of 16-foot and 18-foot designs. These have the same beam and identical cabins running 10 back from the bow, so the length difference is all in the cockpit. The hull shapes are VERY similar. As noted in my last post, there is no advantage to longer cockpit for my purposes, and perhaps a disadvantage, nor would there be any advantage to more cabin for me. The longer boat has more wetted surface which appears to slow it a little more than it gains from reduced wave making with greater waterline length. According to KAPER analysis, the longer boat is 1 to 3% slower with the same loads at the thrust I can maintain rowing (at about 4 knots). I think it would be a little easier to achieve weight balance while rowing in the longer version, but this shouldn't be problematic for the shorter, so it's not significant. The shorter version would be a little lighter and slightly easier to build. The longer might be a little faster sailing at speeds between the rate at which I can row and the point at which they would plane. I doubt this would be significant. I'm leaning toward the shorter version at this point.
  13. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    My interest is primarily cruising. There is no advantage to a large cockpit, rather the smaller the better for seriously rough conditions, especially off-shore. Enclosed volume (cabin) is good unless you add too much weight or wind resistance. These are related more to shape and to areas (frontal and of materials). By keeping the shape very simple - a smooth slope and smooth tapers from bow to max cabin cross section, these are kept to a minimum. The area of materials of cabin need not be greater than the area of materials for the same length of cockpit (side decks, inside walls and floor compared to sidewalls and top of cabin), and they may be of lighter construction. For me the biggest problem with a long forward cabin is that it pushes the sliding-seat rowing position aft. I'm designing seat tracks right to the cabin bulkhead and a large enough hatch that my body can be into the cabin space at the end of each stroke. Since I row only in calm conditions, this isn't a problem. Even so, my center of mass will be aft of the boat's longitudinal center of buoyancy - so I'll compensate with weight stowed forward. The hatch will be in sections so that the lower part will prevent water entering the cabin even it the cockpit is swamped when sailing with the upper part open for cabin access. Of course hatches will be completely sealed in severe conditions.
  14. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    Comfort and function inside the cabin are primary goals, along with managing weight balance and improved stability and seaworthiness. The new design should plane more easily, so faster sailing in some conditions. She'll weigh a little more and may lose around 5% rowing speed (maybe 2 nm over 10 hours, NOT significant for cruising!). She'll be the same length or a little shorter. The shape is quite different: 10 foot long forward cabin rather than 6'4" aft cabin, a little greater beam and particularly wider bottom between the low chines, etc. She'll have canted lee-boards rather than dagger-board. A dodger or possibly raised cabin top hatch will provide sit-up headroom and views from inside. As noted, I'll share drawings once I've settled on details.
  15. boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

    yes, nice place, but gray and chilly that day