born2sail.at

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About born2sail.at

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  • Location
    Vienna
  • Interests
    Sailing, MTB, Traveling

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  1. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Don't forget Vizeadmiral Tegetthoff who won the battle of lissa. My granddad always told me that when we came across his monument on a square called Praterstern. What does "no difference for the law" mean? For me it is important to clarify that I don't want to make shortcuts on safety. I don't want to bend rules or find loopholes. Just looking for a step by step career path with my own boat. And just a few weeks or month of courses and seatime for the first step to get things started. The only thing I need is a way around the Ishihura plate test. (Well maybe). Some countries have no other optional testing on color blindness and that could be a problem. If I would fail a lantern test I would not consider my self able to work as a master or OOW.
  2. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    I am not looking for a loophole. There is just no possible way in Austria. We don't have a commercial ship register and we don't have a commercial skipper license. Neither a school or university for OOW or Masters. No sea no ships... Only a register for leisure yachts up to 24 meters. So I have to find a way to register the ship and make the necessary qualifications. My idea would be to register the ship in an offshore register like Bermuda or an open ship register that accepts the British qualifications. I want to work my way up on my own boat so that I don't have to buy twice. First make the Yachtmaster costal and do a little bit of charter in the first year. After one year I should have enough experience for the Master 200GT Maybe it's a stupid question but when there are no passengers on board do I need a license? I am asking for the cargo thing. When I am only responsible for myself could I transport cargo?
  3. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    @KC375 I think that is above my magic 24 meters mark. But I think I have the right questions now. What is the maximum size of a yacht that can be legally operated with a Yachtmaster Offshore and a STCW endorsement? Is there a maximum for passengers day/overnight? What about small amounts of cargo? What is the difference between a yacht and a small vessel?
  4. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Well: I put my hand upon her toe Yo Ho...
  5. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Please help me to sort this out. With a Yachtmaster and the commercial endorsement I am allowed to operate a commercial vessel up to 24 Meters. But only if the vessel is registrant as a commercial yacht. And if it is commercial yacht I am not allowed to transport cargo, not even a barrel of whisky. If I want to register as a cargo ship or a combined cargo/passanger vessel the yacht master is not a valid qualification?
  6. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    That are the difficult questions. I can't register an ocean going vessel in Austria for commercial use. The difficult question is if it is necessary to register the vessel commercially. Maybe it's possible to run the boat over a non profit society the society pays a crew (me) for operating the ship. There is a memorandum of understanding in Europe. It regulates that crew and ship certificates are recognized by other European countries. The "Tres Hombres" is registered in Vanuatu mainly because they don't have an engine witch causes problems in Europe. Only god knows what qualification you need when you sail under the Vanuatu flag.
  7. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    I thought under 24 Meters a ship is legally just a yacht and the Yachtmaster Costal, Offshore or Ocean with the commercial endorsement is enough qualification. The British system is quite good for me because they allow a lantern test if you fail the Ishihara plates. The only reason why the Yachtmaster could be a problem are the 20 to 30 day passengers. @LeoV: My idea ist that one of us get the minimal necessary qualification to sail the boat. That could be an Austrian Costal Certificate (FB2). Two weeks of intense training and good you are. Then we go sailing on our own boat collect the miles and the seatime and we both get the qualification to operate the vessel commercially. Either the British or the Dutch career path could be an option. My girlfriend has about 150 days experience on a vessel over 3000 GT. And maybe I can count the many hours on the Nacra as teatime as well. The only thing I do not want is the german way where you have to go to the university for 4 years. And unfortunately the german "Traditions Schiffer Schein" is not for commercial use, whatever that means.
  8. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    I recognized that I have maybe overshot it with my previous questions. Maybe it is better to scratch the surface a little bit longer before I reach the core. I think most of this vessels where built as sailing vessels. Sometimes with a little 30hp diesel engine to get out of the harbor. So I would think that they sail ok. Of course they need a good breeze to accelerate, they will hardly reach 9 Knots. But they will cruise at 5 to 8 knots as long as you don't push too much to windward. But they can beat if necessary. Providence is operated on a schedule and the legs are about 3 hours long. I think one hour for setting all the sails is reasonable. Not many time left for sailing... I honestly believe that using the engine is a skippers choice on any sailboat. Some are willing to wait for wind most are not. One reason I like sailing is that it slows your life down a bit. No need to hurry. Traveling takes some time and that's ok. I never understood people going for speed instead of comfort on a cruiser. What are we talking about 14 Knots maximum? Double the speed? With a plane, train or car it's always faster. Racing is fine but if I want to race I would by a full blooded racer like an Open 60 or one of the older aluminum design used in the Round the Globe. I think "Nautisport Kapsch" is for sale now... But a cruiser/racer, I don't know. But who has sailed a pilothouse gaff ketch and can tell me about the sailing experience? What does it mean to sail a slow boat?
  9. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    I don't want to disagree with that. The thing is that if I think about the business first I end up with a well payed job on land and maybe go sailing a few weeks a year. But I don't want that. I want to life on a sailboat and I want to sail. I want to sell something and I don't want to live with the money of patrons or sponsors. So I have to think about a business where I am happy and make some money. Maybe a way is to run the vessel over a non profit organization and pay myself some pocket money. It is only about the legal reasons. I have full eyesight and I never had problems to tell if something is green or red. But the Ishihara test could be a problem. When I was tested if I am able to be able to serve in the army I had to do an additional lantern test, I passed that one with no problem at all. The document is for inland navigation, manly rivers. 7 crew members for a ship with 12 berths is quite a lot ;-) There are some boats out there, some of them are in business for quite a long time and in most cases I think I could do better. I don't think all of the traditional vessels out there are operated by millionaires who think that that is the best way to sink money. Why would anybody by a traditional fishing vessel when you could by a Wally Yacht instead? But I don't know how often the ships are booked and the maintenance cost vary quite a lot from one ship to another.
  10. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Ok, first I want to say thank you all for your help. It has been a good and fun tread so far! I think I know what I want now, well I hope so. I definitely want to go that traditional rout. I prefer old fishing vessels. I like the design, the wheelhouse, the volume in the hull and the "can go anywhere" appearance. I even found the perfect vessel but it was sold two years ago: https://www.providence1903.com/ship-gallery Basic design elements I like: Two masts, wheelhouse, two separate companionways, outside steering behind/on top of the wheelhouse. Space for 20 to 30 day guests and 10 or more overnights and a separated owners cabin. I haven't figured out what I want to do on the business side of this topic. I can say what I don't want but that doesn't help me. I figured out two possible layout plans and I am not sure which one is better. 1. A big room (the old fish hold) with bunks port and starboard and a big table in the middle of the room. Maybe separate cabins for crew or teachers when sailing with school kids. This layout allows the use of hammocks and also the possibility to transport 20 tons of cargo. 2. 6 separate cabins, one side with double beds the oder side with bunks. But there is one more questions and I came to a dead end with my internet research. What kind of qualification do I need? Is it enough when one person has the needed qualification. (The reason I ask is that there is a chance that I would fail an Ishihara test but almost any other test on color blindness I would pass.)
  11. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Call it a business is too much, call it reducing the hole in the water is not enough. Somewhere in between. As far as I know "historical" can mean almost anything. It locks like a traditional vessel it has a gaff rig, it is a historic vessel. I think transporting tourist could be enough. I have done the calculation for the Kieler Week and it's quite a lot of money you can earn. 8 days. 2 Tripps a day. About 30 guests a trip. The prices are around 45 to 95€ a ticket. Let's say 50 to balance out the not booked spaces. (More on the two evenings with firework and for the tall ship parade.) 480 tickets @ 50€ = 24000€ Plus 10 overnight guests at 150€ per berth = 10500€ Total income = 34500€ Minus the marina costs (anchoring is possible as well) 500 a night? = 31000€ Minus fuel of 90 liters a day = 29800€ I am not sure about the tax situation but lets say 20% = 23840€ The big unknown factor are still the maintaining costs per year. But wooden vessels that size (Bristol Channel Cutters, Brixham Trawlers, Tally Ho) costs about 250 to 500k completely rebuilt not counting the work hours. Assuming that 10% of the building costs are maintaining costs, I would need 6 weeks to cover the costs for the boat and 4 weeks to cover my life. @KC375: I know, I should call some people.
  12. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    I am not really interesting in the "motoring from one marina to the next with one stop for swimming" kind of business. Better business, maybe... but much more competition. Expeditions around Cape Hoorn: http://www.sarahvorwerk.net/en/home Prices for day guests on traditional boats: https://www.hansesail.com/no_cache/mitsegeln/mitsegeln-zur-hanse-sail-2020.html (A lot of days are already booked out) I am always a perfectionist. I have difficulties to work for people who think ok is good enough. Not improving something you know that it's not good really bothers me. Thats why I love racing, you have to find tiny little things that you can improve and at the end you have the result. You can't get away with 90%. But unfortunately it's hard to make a living with sail racing and you are born in the wrong country. Our guys in the 49er got their olympic qualification in NZL. Not one single newspaper writes about it. Close to perfect is not good enough and dealing with that cognition has lead to this tread. So finding a niche, where people really like to sail with you because they can't find it anywhere else is the goal. I want to offer a service that sells itself because people are looking for it. I don't want to compete in a well established market.
  13. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    I like the idea of choosing a coffin when one is still alive and building one is even better.
  14. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Why did you do that to me? I am now considering building a wooden ship by my own hands. Think I need professional help by a headshrinker. Or drink less, or more, I definitely got the wrong dose.
  15. born2sail.at

    How much is a brand new traditional steel boat?

    Both, the majority is built of steel but there are wooden boats as well. Especially in the 20 to 30 Meter range. This whole tread has been my search for sweet spot between to much boat and not enough space/cabins. There are not many boats even in the 30 to 40 Meter range carrying more than 12 passengers. I think the reason is SOLAS compliance. I got that advice and I would definitely book some sail training on a similar type of vessel. Got it. But to ask the right questions I have to know what I want and I have to know what is financially possible for me. It sounds a little bit more than it is. Hull lengths I am looking for are around 44' to 47'. But with the hughe bowsprit and davits you reach that LOA of 60'. I would be totally fine with a boat under 40' for myself. Maybe a Fisher 37. But only one V-berth for guests is limiting the business options quite much. Maybe I get my YouTube channel running in the next few months while I am still racing the Nacra 17 and get a "passive" income. Then I could forget about the focus on the business idea. My costs for camping are quite high at the moment. Something around 8000€ a year. And the reeling value of my stuff like the caravan and the car goes down every single month. I could rent a flat but I would loose money every month and still would need the car. Maybe it's a good idea to purchase a small boat first to live on and get all the qualifications first, then resell it and buy something bigger for guests. But I am not the best salesman and I usually loose some money when I sell something like a car. So I rather do my homework first, get as much informations I can get and only play one card.