Curious

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  1. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    At no stage did I say I sailed 12s in Oslo - I said that there were 12s in Oslo years ago and that I, like many people, have sailed a 12. I never said I sailed a 12 in Oslo. At no stage did I say I've sailed foilers for ten years or currently sail a foiling Moth - I said I have sailed on foilers (as have lots of people) and I said I've sailed against them (as have lots of people). I never said that there "only 10 foiling monohulls ever built". I said there were " only about 10 foiling "keelboats" in the world" - that's the Quant 23s and the British testbed. Anyone can see that the sentence in post 194 referred to "foiling keelboats". Okay, I get it that you're deeply angry at the sailing world for reasons we can probably guess, but can't you at least be honest? The odd thing is that I can't work out why you get so upset about the fact that some people are interested in the history of our sport and like to buy old books and learn from them. You're into sail training and if I was interested in what was in the syllabus I'd ask you - why do you get so angry about the fact that other people have other interests? What you've proven from your post is that you are either unable to read properly or a straight-out liar.
  2. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    The AC was "sailed in boats that were built to the same rule as the typical regatta yacht" for decades outside the 12 Metre era. The early ACs were sailed under typical tonnage rules, as used in normal regattas for big and small yachts. Later boats like the Valkyries raced under the "Length times sail area" rules, which were also used in local regattas for 25 foot LOA Half Raters, some British sailing canoes, 14 footers, and many other regatta and club-racing boats. Then they switched to the Universal Rule, which was used across North America for club- and regatta-racing boats like Ms, Rs, Ps, Qs and S boats. So yes, AC boats cost a lot. I never said they didn't. But they were of the same design style, and often built to the same rule, as many typical regatta yachts. The other thing is that even the AC boats, at least in England, often raced in normal regattas before and after their AC career, alongside similar boats that were not built for the AC. So America's Cup challengers, defenders and defence contenders like Yankee, Valkyrie II, Shamrock II, Vigilant, Endeavour and Shamrock V would race from local regatta to local regatta against boats of the same general size, speed and type such as Britannia, Meteor II, Satanita, Calluna, Velsheda, White Heather II, Brynnhilde, the 23 Metre Shamrock, Cambria, Candida, Astra, and Ailsa. The AC boats of the past were not specialist machines that only did AC racing, like the foilers are. I don't know why you appear to believe that I reckon the AC should still be sailed in 12s. I've never said that, and I don't think it. Please stop putting words in my mouth so often. Like many people who sail fast small boats, I've been sailing against foilers from 2004 up till my most recent regatta. But there's only about 10 foiling "keelboats" in the world, so very few people here will race against an AC75 or a small version of an AC75 next season. Foilers only make up a tiny percentage of sailboats being built and raced. In contrast, when the 12s were selected for the AC, they and smaller boats built to the same or similar rules made up about 10% of the fleet at some major regattas and Metre boats were racing regularly in many clubs.
  3. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    I didn't compare the AC to baseball, cycling and tennis apart from pointing out that the latter show that you do not need to have exotic equipment to attract spectators. Yes, F1 may well be more equipment-intensive than cycling, but I didn't raise that. It's also not really relevant to the point, which is that you don't need exotic gear to get spectators. Cycling shows that applies even in an equipment-intensive sport. Yes, F1 is even more gear intensive and lots of people watch it. That doesn't disprove the fact that you don't need exotic equipment to get people to watch sport, even an equipment-intensive racing sport. It would be interesting to discuss F1's relevance to the AC, but given the shitfights that go on here it wouldn't work. It would involve looking at F1's rules (which ban a lot of performance enhancements), its shifting popularity, the fact that many people prefer Nascar/Supercars/Tourenwagen/2 litre NGTC, F1's effect on participation in motorsport, etc. I can't respond to your quote because you don't say who wrote it, where it came from, or why it's of deep importance.
  4. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    My point is what I said back in post 110. There's no evidence the AC got more attention when it was sailed in "unique equipment" (like AC50s) than when it was sailed in boats were built to the same rule as the typical regatta yacht, and were the same or similar to the boats that did local regattas. Many sports that get lots of attention don't use unique equipment. Others then diverted that with bringing up F1 and irrelevant points about the size of the UK's population and 12 Metre engines. Complain to them, not to me.
  5. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    Again, let's rewind. I never said there was competitive advantage in tennis shoes. I was addressing the inference that you need unique gear to get the public's attention. As your own post pointed out, there's not much that's unique about the gear they use at Wimbledon, but it still gets the public's attention. Thanks for making my point. By the way, I'm an active bike racer so I'm aware of cycling equipment. You can buy gear that is very similar to the stuff the pros use (but lighter) at a good local shop or via mail order - and yet the Tour is the world's biggest annual sporting event. It has not got unique gear, but it gets the public's attention.
  6. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    No one said that the 12s in Oslo had anything to do with Norwegian AC challenges. The fact was that before the class was chosen for the AC, it was regularly sailed at local level and smaller boats to the same rule were also regularly raced at club level. None of your third grade silliness affects the fact that before and during the time the 12 Metres were in the Cup, the Twelves, other Metre boats and similar boats raced regularly in local races and as part of the main fleet of major events like the Fastnet, Hobart, Ensenada and Round the Island races. There's no clutching at straws about the catamaran being late into the AC. It's just another piece of technology where the AC lagged well behind other areas of the sport like the use of wing masts, wing sails, mylar, foam sandwich, composite spars, etc. It's just another fact that shows that your claim that the AC boats were normally at the forefront of technology. The simple fact is that they were regularly behind the leading edge. There's nothing to stop a 12 Metre from having an engine, as many in the Newport fleet do when they race as a 12 Metre class. The owners of 12s with engines reckon their boats are still Twelves, and that's been the case for decades. The listings on the 12 Metre Class Association site include a section showing the details of the engines on many of the boats that still race in the class. I suppose you reckon you know more about the 12 Metre rule and class than the class association and the owners do. So as usual, we've got to a point where you are ignoring reality and playing at insults like a child. I'll go away and talk to grown-ups.
  7. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    I'm not British. I brought up British figures because the British do a good job of tracking sports participation, and I knew of the studies about the strength of the British motorsports industry because one of them was mentioned in Richard Williams' excellent book about the Hill/Schumacher/Villeneuve era. I could have mentioned NZ figures because they also track motorsports participation, but I thought if I did you may complain that NZ was too distant. US figures are too hard to find unless you want to pay for reports. I invite you to provide facts to back up your claims, instead of carping from the sidelines.
  8. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    Well, let's see you provide better information then. And in case you haven't noticed, England is a major player in motorsports. There have been studies into the unusual strength of British motorsport since Hill and Coulthard were fighting for the front of the grid. To quote a newer American study, "There is a tendency of firms within any industry to cluster in a particular region, also called industrial agglomerations. In the specific case of motorsports, the example of the British motorsports industry is well known and has been studied by several interest groups (Baron, 2003; Henry & Pinch, 2000). Virtually the entire British motorsports industry is clustered within a 50-mile radius around Oxford in Southern England. The region has been named “Silicon Valley of Motor Sport” or simply “Motor Sports Valley.” Approximately three quarters of the world’s single-seat racing cars are designed and assembled in the region. The production of equipment is focused on Formula One, Championship Auto Racing, Indy Racing League, and Rally cars." So England has long been a centre of motorsport, and a centre of prototype production. If prototypes attracted participants, then why don't more people do motorsport in the UK? And if British weather stops people from motorsport, why do they do other sports like sailing and cycling? It's not as if those sports are independent of the weather. But if you reckon that the country that is home to over half of the F1 teams, for example, is a backwater of motorsport then why not provide some facts to back up your claim? After all, if there is evidence that following the F1 model is the best way to get people to watch and participate then why not show it?
  9. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    Let's rewind. You started by saying that I was at a club that "had a bunch of cruiser racers or one off race boats that apart from being sloop rigged, bore no resemblance to a 12 meter." That was wrong. There were two, and for a short period three, 12 Metres doing club races at the clubs I raced as a kid and young adult. Lame primary school insults can't change that fact. The truth is that Metre boats from 12s downwards, and one design dayboats of the same general style, were seen at many clubs including the ones I sailed at as a kid. That had been the pattern for a long while. Around the time the 12 Metres were chosen for the AC, they were an established class, with many boats still racing. Noresca, Vema III, Figaro VI, Blue Marlin, Thea and Norsaga regularly raced out of Oslo. Morna was winning line honours in the Hobart, although I left her out as she was designed as a cruiser-racer. Flica (1), Flica II, Istar, Kailua, Little Astra and other Twelves were actively racing in the UK. American Eagle was still a 12 Metre when she went ocean racing, and she still is a Twelve. There were also many smaller Metre boats that were very active. The Tens that were winning line honours in the Hobart, Montague and Gladstone races were Even and Kyeema. That's completely different to the current situation. There were no 72 or 50 foot foiling cats racing as a class before those classes were adopted for the AC. There are no 75 foot monofoilers. The AC has not always been sailed in boats that used the latest technology and equipment. Take the bermudan rig - it was used in international races in the 1890s, in the 15 Metre Istria in 1912 and in the 23 Metre Nyria before it was used in the AC. Foam sandwich was used in maxis in the early '70s and only got to the AC in 1987. Spade rudder and fin keels were seen in small boats before they got into the AC. Mylar was seen in Solos and Stars before it got into the AC. Racing cats were a century old before they got into the AC. Offshore multis used foils about 30 years before they got into the AC. Wing masts were used by dinghies and canoes in the 1930s, by offshore multis in the '60s, and only got into the AC in the '80s. Wingsails were used in the early 20th century and only got into the AC in the early 21st century. So the AC has regularly run decades behind the leading edge in technology and equipment.
  10. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    T and J, Formula 1 and Moto GP don't disprove that the Tour is generally considered to be the world's biggest annual sporting event, although if you consider a season of soccer as a single event the Tour may drop to number two behind Premier League football. See for example https://www.gamblingsites.org/blog/most-watched-sports-events-world/ https://www.pledgesports.org/2017/04/these-are-the-5-biggest-sporting-events-in-the-world/ https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.strong-growth-for-f1s-tv-and-digital-audiences-in-2017.6Cted4V292gQ420AeoSO2e.html And motorsports rank comparatively low in participation; in England, a hub of motorsports, the national Active People survey shows that only 0.04% of people (18,000) take part in motor racing compared to 3.4 million who do cycling for fun (ie not transport), over 100,000 who go canoeing or kayaking, and 137,000 who sail. Even if you add in go-karters and motorcrossers, motorsport doesn't have a great participation rate especially considering the huge funding it gets from the motor industry. So to get back to the original point, sports in which the weekend warriors use gear like the stuff that the pros use do get the publics' attention, and they get more participants. So why not follow that model?
  11. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    The deflection was yours, when I posted about tennis, baseball, cycling and football and you posted a pic of a racing car. Yes, I got the point you were probably trying to make, which was that one sport that gets a lot of viewers uses expensive, exotic equipment. That doesn't change the fact that other major sports don't.
  12. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    The fact that there are some wankers in road cycling has nothing to do with my reply to 12 Metre when he said "the AC should be sailed in something unique if you wish to stage an event that captures peoples attention". The point is that the Tour and other major road cycling events use gear that isn't unique, but they definitely get people's attention. It's pretty odd to assume that people on the internet can't have sailed 12 Metres. Lots of people have sailed Twelves. As I pointed out, there were a couple of them racing most weekends where I grew up. They had crew. So do the ones on the Euro circuit and the ones in Newport.
  13. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    And that's relevant how? The point is that sports in which the main event is in gear that's pretty similar to what the weekend warrior uses are more popular than sports where that doesn't happen. I noticed you conveniently left out cycling from my list. It's the western world's most popular gear-intensive racing sport and where the pros in the world's biggest annual sporting event use kit that is the same, but heavier, than the stuff you can buy in a good local shop.
  14. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    I used the past tense because the point was about the past. If I used future tense when talking about the past popularity of the AC, and its relationship with mainstream sailing it would be confusing. I first sailed a foiler before the AC72s foiled and I hope to be sailing a foiling cat a bit this year, so I'm actually quite aware of them, thanks.
  15. Curious

    shit show (front page)

    My post said "The top events in tennis, baseball, football and cycling get lots of public attention even when the gear looks like the stuff you can buy at a local store." Just because you seem to struggle with this stuff, you should perhaps show this photograph to someone. They will gently break it to you that it shows a racing car, and that racing cars are not used in tennis, baseball, football or cycling. After you've come to grips with the fact that your pic shows a racing car, ask them to show you what tennis, baseball, football and cycling look like. Then - and apparently only then - will you see the difference.