• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

Spar Wars

Members
  • Content count

    398
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Spar Wars

  • Rank
    Anarchist
  • Birthday 02/23/1950

Contact Methods

  • Website URL
    http://www.sparwars.org
  • ICQ
    0

Profile Information

  • Location
    Lake Charlevoix, Boyne City, Michigan
  • Interests
    Racing, Racing, Racing<br /><br />Olson 30
  1. LMPHRF suggests type casting the sections with designs that are similar characteristics first, handicap split second. It is a single number rule and this is one way to equalize wind among the classes. The handicaps can be wide if the boats are similar; the handicap will work. TOT is recommended too!
  2. Having been on the cusp of SI for the ORR/ChiMac debacle at 101.9 and needing 103 to enter, I can add my two cents on the J/29. (I added 3" of lead to my keel and was 103.9 after mod) The J/29 is around a 98 SI. Wing Nuts 'initially' was a 98, but after a recalculation was down in the 80's I believe. The SI is a silly number. Blame it on the 'engineer' types, not sailors. Using 103 for Lake Michigan is as silly as 115 for an east coast run to Bermuda. Neither number means anything.......unless you encounter a SPECIFIC set of circumstances. First: broaching or beam to waves that are breaking. What is that...all day storm of 40? That could roll a boat that is less than 103, granted. M24 there is no question the carnage. J/29 would take a hit too. Are they safe? YES..unless. Second: I was in the 2011 Mac Storm on a 36.7. Spinnaker up! Laid us over pretty good, but not radical. We knew it was coming..we were waiting for a hint of a wind direction change to drop. We got the freight train. Estimated winds: 65-80 knots. We were about 12 miles south of Wing Nuts that unfortunately was in the center of the microburst. Point..stability matters in high winds too. How would my Olson have done is my constant question. Luckily a sistership was there too and faired well, except the broken boom. I think a J/29 would have been fine. M24...not so much. Third issue: All other boats will be carrying all the required Mac gear. Is the M24 taking a hit on hcp for some of the 'waivers'? We are going Cove as the pickle boat in Spinnaker class. I avoid being in M24 classes. Best of luck to them.
  3. Irish River: Maybe actually reading your PHRF region rules and regulations would help on the 'offshore' question in your area. I know the intent of PHRF is offshore, meaning the type of boats rated.....not the actual water. My answer is you look up PHRF under US Sailing, under OFFSHORE.
  4. Skull and Bones; regarding the turbo. Read your PHRF regional section rules on mods. That is your first clue. Is it possible the boat isn't reporting the mods? Have you seen the certificate? Not a normal situation and I can't judge with little detail.
  5. Maybe ask for a Portsmouth section and get more small boats. Technically....PHRF is an Offshore Handicap system and has equipment requirements you couldn't or wouldn't want to meet. HOWEVER, some PHRF regions do rate a level 4 category and restrict the boat to inland waters. Still think Portsmouth is the way to go. It can rate keel boats as well, just a matter of the local flavor.
  6. Find a Portsmouth Fleet. Their specialty is small boats and inland waters.
  7. TOT Factors: TCF= 650/550+HCP (for general use) TCF= 650/650+HCP (for windward-leeward courses) TCF= 650/450+HCP (for port to port races)
  8. Can't believe it took so long......
  9. There is no 'formula'...you have to do the math work from the actual certificates that show VPP seconds per mile. Say 650. Old rule of thumb is to subtract 550, which would equal a 100 phrf. So if you have a J/111 at 590, it would be a 40. This is done at 10 kts of air. It is NOT a PHRF method, it is a side test. Another way...J/111 at 590. Competing boat at 620. J/111 owes 30 seconds to that boat. If we rate a J/111 at 39 PHRF, the other boat should be near a 69. AGAIN, this is NOT how we do it. It is a side test. We do not have every boats polar/VPP. However, for all you 'measured boat' fans...there is some trace of measured here. I need to start a new thread called how phrf can be figured..what does the committee use to finalize a rating. I share this as I think a lot of people think we just pull it out of the RWB or our...... So not true. I hope I'm shedding some light. I'm going to take a minute to explain something. I'm here as a competitor and feel certificates should be used in invitational regattas; that PRO's should agree with that. That being said, I'm not here as a PHRF rep and my comments are subject to zero use at our PHRF committee meetings. First, only a meeting can establish a handicap. Second, I don't have the rules/procedures right in front of me. Third, I'm speaking from the context of trying to give explanations that my dispel myths. There is pleeeennnnnttttyyy of chances of taking what I say out of context. It is SA, after all. So ask questions, but remember I am only one.
  10. It is subjective! Via analysis of performance. Yes, we can determine what rating boats sail to in a race. We throw out outliers. (went wrong way, broke something, penalty turns) We look for a pattern. Remember, we are usually looking at 3 to 6 seconds here, up or down, if we do corrections to our previous consensus. The J/111 example was one of the widest one's I've seen. 45 to 39, only 6 over 3 years! VPP is not a part of analysis, other than a backup if we are in doubt. One recent boat rated 27 equivalent per IRC. We gave it a 42 because our numbers aren't biased by designs (penalty boat in IRC). It will be provisional for 3 years and subject to all the answers above. The numbers I used are for a subject boat, not against other boats. There is an example graph, I believe, still in the PHRF section of Offshore Racing at US Sailing to look at. Last I looked, the link was broken, but may be fixed by now. Appellates are invited to present their case in person. The deliberation is like a protest meeting, in a closed meeting to keep the peace for the most part. Speaking to your replies: #1. Not a likely scenario with mono hulls. VPP is a misleading number if it has penalties within the formula. How do you know if the formula is secret? We seek to level the playing field with known ratios. We have the flexibility to modify even our own decisions over time. Formula's like VPP...not so much! (example: One Design: Bene 36.7 ORR ratings are sistership, yet many have been actually measured and they fluctuate widely) We are aware of the pitfalls of measured and take that into account. #2 a) Not arbitrary! We use graphs of actual 'sailed to' numbers. The only hint of arbitrary is each graph is a single factor in our decisions. #3: The area you sail in sets the wind factor. It is a fixed number they use. Generally 10 kts. San Fran uses a must higher number, thus much lower handicaps for beyond hull speed boats. Keep in mind..it is the difference between boats that is the handicap. The goal is getting the difference correct. The methods are very good. Okay...we got onto the PHRF methods line of talk. I don't mind explaining, but it is off topic. Back to: Should a competitor (you and I) try to insist that an OA/PRO require certificates in an 40-60 boat invitational regatta? (IRC, ORR, PHRF) Should a PRO advise the OA to include special language to skip a certificate requirement in a larger invitational? Do you, a certificate holder, feel comfortable going to a 60-80 boat invitational regatta, knowing that a 'local' race committee will look up handicaps from somewhere and adjust them to local (whatever that is) and put them in your section (with no appeal or review possible)? For all that want a multi wind handicap, multi course factor, no certificate required system...please look up Portsmouth Yardstick. It is online at US Sailing. It may be just what you desire. I am a strong advocate!
  11. JBSF...sure! #1: Shotshit has a D/L ratio; a published weight; a SA/D ratio and many other measurements. We look for several current rated boats that have similarities and put them on a spreadsheet. Each ratio is compared to those boats as well as their handicaps. This gives us our FIRST indicator of a phrf rating. The technical committee is given the spreadsheet data and a discussion ensues. (mid year by emails) A consensus is reached and a number produced. Because it is a one of a kind, it is given a 'Provisional' rating. That means it will be reviewed each year for 2 or 3 years at the winter season meetings. #2 a): Common perception of those losing: that boat has a favorable rating is the bar talk. However, it is most likely exactly as you state: clean boat, new, better crew, new sails, etc. A local club (members jurisdiction) can invoke a fun rating system if that is their goal. PHRF will not automatically reduce the handicap because of results. It will analyze the competiton where the subject boat has sailed. Yeah, the interwebby can give use data! We have special spreadsheet graphs that show how a boat is being sailed. This is a usual procedure for the annual 'provisional' review. J/111's were done exactly this way. 45 went down to 39 over about 3 years as an example. #2 : same answer as # 2 a): except the common perception of the boat is PHRF is screwing me with that unfavorable rating. Again, the boat is a provisional and gets the annual review..it can go up or down. #3: We need wind and time for the subject boat and the boats that raced in the common section. We graph boats, looking for the erratic or high skill sailing pattern. Sailing a 100 boat at 160 one week and next an 80, up and down all season indicates a problem that is not the handicap. If we see a new boat rated 100 sailing at 140, then 130, then 120, then 110, then 100 and an occasional 80-85 we will think the 100 is pretty accurate. That is what we expect the first year. If the second year is 110, 100, 90, 90,90, 80...we will have a discussion to lower the handicap! After 3 years, usually the provisional is dropped. A competitor can appeal a competitor. They need to supply results we can graph. Their own boat will receive scrutiny as well! New sails? How long has crew been with you? Clean bottom? To insert an answer to Turd: VPP, if available, is data we will consider to help confirm a rating. PHRF is NOT a measured handicap system, VPP is, but it is based on their own formulas that have built in bias (ORR) to designs. PHRF is an analysis of performance, via characteristics, via data/historical numbers that have been compiled for a LONG, LONG time. Thus it is a judgment number that is not hard fixed, not subject to politics by rule, yet not subject to poor sailing reward characteristics either. We work with numbers, not emotions. We get called cold for that. We get accused of dark room politics. When is all this dark stuff coming up? Appeals? New Boats? Don't see it. Sorry. Remember: we are talking the 'number' here. The rules are for the prevention of cheaters. You must report them. Did I get it all? JB?
  12. Wooba Gooba: the larger invitational events..say 40 to 90 boats. Local club only events: I leave them to their own. The boats that travel from those clubs and have certificates are my interest. I'm interested that they are represented by a local handicapper that is pushing the invitational events to correct their mindset of waiving handicap rules and regulations. I'm in the public forum to get the certificate holders to help me push. It certainly undermines PHRF when OA's do this. Seeing the local event mentality creep into an invitational regatta really is mind blowing. If these events get handicap beefs, they should not be blaming PHRF. Is this a source of a perception problem?
  13. Tim....maybe mixed up a bit on the difference between handicapping a boat and certification of a boat. Yep, splitting hairs: Yes, PHRF assumes a certain condition of the boat for rating: excellent condition with parameters to be followed. "the number" Second, the rules of PHRF are a primary purpose of a certificate; to invoke fair sailing: The sailor is certifying how they will be equipping the boat and stating so to his competitors. Those are rules to be followed by the boat. NO CHEATING ALLOWED in so many words. On the subject of the 'number': Many read the rating section and consider them rules, instead of guides. I mention this because when a PHRF committee handicaps, it can be an 'all inclusive' rating, as an example. Many times, several mods, if following the written guide, will add up to say a 15 second penalty. However, the committee may issue an 'all inclusive penalty' which means the sum of expected performance is, say 9 seconds or 12 seconds. It is done when the 15 estimated to be too harsh. I think this leeway is a beef of many that try to rate out a boat without getting a certificate. Many times I have seen a local club use the PHRF written penalties in a sum total on a boat. The owner gets PO'd and gets a certificate and the pen's are less. This is because it is a PERFORMANCE rule, not a measured rule. We estimate the gain of a modification(s) (or loss, such as props/roller furling, etc) and apply our knowledge. I dare say ORR/IRC won't tell you any number for a mod! Think like the PGA! must pay PGA fee to golf in a league, must use PGA golf rules on the course, handicapping is a part of that system. Same order in PHRF racing. Problem with PHRF is what you stated....many are swiping the work of an association to avoid a fee, yet it is the most widely used international system out there. It has survived IOR, IMS and others before that. For a single number system, it works fairly! You can appeal a boat that is not fair, if it exists. The ratings work..bottom line. Ratings issues with skippers will never be fair, according to disgruntled skippers!..bottom line. It's not just PHRF. You decide to race..pick one and support it. Back on subject: competitors should insist certificates are required in a regatta? If not..bring that spin pole and spinnaker from a boat that is 6 foot longer. Anything goes!
  14. Sacrilege for sure, but I would like a blend of Portsmouth and PHRF. Portsmouth has the wind range handicaps as a plus. It has the minus of a loose structure that is fluid over the years and really doesn't verify boats and their configurations very well. A combo of the more rigid rules of PHRF and Portsmouth wind ranges is a dream. Certify the boat and apply wind range handicaps. But...hey...it doesn't exist.