Brass

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  1. Brass

    Reasons to lose a protest

    There's never been a rule anything like that.
  2. Brass

    Reasons to lose a protest

    You certainly can't do that now. 'First reasonable opportunity' means after the incident and does not include additional time to see whether a boat takes a penalty or flies a red flag.
  3. Brass

    Reasons to lose a protest

    Well that seems like an incorrect application of the rules. No hail of protest should mean that the protest stops and no further action is taken. for the jury to throw either boat out there needs to be a legitimate protest. The following rule was inserted into the RRS in 1977 and remained until it was deleted int he 1995 re-write Rule 33.2 Contact Between Yachts Racing When there is contact between the hulls, equipment or crew of two yachts both shall be disqualified or otherwise penalised unless either: (a) one of the yachts retires or [takes an on-water penalty] or (b) one or both of the boats [protests].
  4. "Puff" or "Good one" and "Lull"
  5. Brass

    Reasons to lose a protest

    Absolutely you can ask for the decision to be explained. What you can expect to get is an explanation of how the rules applied. What you can't expect is an explanation of how or why the protest committee found the facts that they did. That's a bit like a court jury not explaining how they made their decision. As a judge, I don't like doing explanations immediately after the hearing because I have just gone to a lot of trouble to write a proper decision which should require no explanation, and until the parties read the written decision, they can hardly claim that they don't understand it. Also, immediately after a hearing, people are still a bit wound up, and not necessarily all that receptive to explanations. It may well be that I'll want to wait 15 days before discussing the protest to ensure that any mistake or misunderstanding of what I say won't lead to a valid appeal. If you have difficulty understanding a protest decision, here's what I suggest you do. First step is get the written protest decision and study it with the rules book open and try to understand how the protest committee applied the rules to the facts they found (not the facts you wanted them to find), to reach the conclusions about what boat broke what rules. Then look at the Facts Found and identify those Facts Found that were different from the facts you wanted the committee to find, and review your notes and recollection of the hearing to see why or how you didn’t bring enough weight of evidence to convince the protest committee of ‘your’ facts.
  6. Brass

    Reasons to lose a protest

    OK, all the trash talking aside, I'll try to address the original question: What are the reasons why boats lose protests? Reasons are: Boat comes out on the wrong side of a contest about facts, either Qualitative: for example: Were boats overlapped or clear ahead/astern? Quantitative: for example: Were boats 2 metres apart or 10 metres apart? Boat misunderstood interactions between rules, for example right-of-way vs room or [lack of] interaction between rule 11 and rule 17. Boat misunderstood or did not apply a definition: for example 'overlap' (opposite tacks downwind), or the non-definition 'overtaking'. Difference in judgement, for example what is/was 'enough' room. Anyone got anything to build on that?
  7. Brass

    Reasons to lose a protest

    The original point you made was I absolutely agree with Woody You then said I think this is way off the mark. In my experience Most protests proceed to a conclusion that a boat broke a rule and address penalty. Between 10 and 15 % of protests are declared invalid and not further heard. The main reason protests are invalid is that the competitors making those protests make little effort to acquaint themselves with or comply with the rules. Anybody who has a protest declared invalid when it shouldn't be, can and should appeal.
  8. Brass

    RRS Appendix G

    You'd hope that was what a, wise protest committee would do, but disqualification without warning has been an option for at least the last two quads G4. WARNINGS AND PENALTIES When a protest committee finds that a boat has broken a rule of this appendix, it shall either warn her and give her time to comply or penalize her.
  9. Brass

    RRS Appendix G

    See the Australian Sailing Prescription to Appendix G Australian Sailing prescribes that this appendix shall apply to all boats except that the distinguishing number may be allotted by or under the authority of Australian Sailing. Sail numbers shall be deemed to include a club prefix if any Was your sail number issued to you by your State/Territory YA or Australian Sailing? That is, is it shown in the database here https://www.sailingresources.org.au/sail-number-database/ Was your sail number issued to you by a Club with a Club Prefix? If not, you might not be looking too good. But I can't see anything in Appendix G about having extraneous signs or symbols on sails. I find the idea that you have to have to have a valid class certificate to be allowed to display a class sail number odd. I think that would have to be in the class rules and the class rules will only apply if the NOR/SI list the class among the classes to race in the event.
  10. Brass

    Room to Tack question

    Rule 20 is a rule of Part 2. The preamble to Part 2 states The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing
  11. Brass

    Room to Tack question

    Case 35 Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies “You tack,” and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c). Case 101 Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room for a manoeuvre, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to room. When, in reply to her call for room to tack when approaching an obstruction, a boat is hailed “You tack”, and when she does so and is then able to tack again to keep clear in a seamanlike way, the other boat has given the room required.
  12. Brass

    armchair Protest Com.

    Damn irony font not working again. Didn't think it was your usual form. Problem of incomplete records, and had crossed my mind, together with possibility of not all offending boats being protested. My view remains that the protest committee absolutely must disqualify all validly protested boats that did not sail the course. Failure to do that, if appealed would be sure to be overturned. Having done that, any redress contemplated should place boats given redress after boats that sailed the course properly.
  13. Brass

    armchair Protest Com.

    You're kidding? 'individual "truth"'? This is a protest committee, not a metaphysical debating society. The job of a protest committee is to decide protests according to the rules, not make up some new rules of its own. There is one rule, rule 28 and it's authoritatively interpreted by Case 129. Validly protested boats that did not sail the course should be disqualified. If it was a local practice to sound a horn for each boat finishing, then the race committee might have misled some competitors. Even so, it might well have been doubtful that boats, in the absence of the sound signal would have recognised and corrected their error. Good fences make good neighbours. The fairest thing is to apply the rules, particualrly once it comes to a protest committee. That's as nice as it gets. How would we think the boats that had their valid protest dismissed , knowing that an Appeal Committee would belt that decision out over left field are feeling? I don't think that's a fair outcome. Some boats sailed the course in compliance with the rules. They deserve to be placed ahead of boats that broke the rules. If it was accepted that boats that did not comply with rule 28 were misled into doing so by an improper action of the race committee, they could be scored, in their finishiing sequence, in places behind the last boat that sailed the correct course.
  14. Brass

    armchair Protest Com.

    No. Theres a clear rule and a clear Case 129. Dont mess with it. Just finsh between the damn mark an the S flag.
  15. Brass

    Rules question

    Nor to me. Don't do it deliberately unless you have no other choice. I don't really know what you mean by 'mark of the course', but I think Case 129 tells us exactly the opposite of what you are saying: After the race committee shortens the course, the windward mark is no longer a rounding mark. It becomes a finishing mark Agree. Read Case 129 and Case 82