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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About wjquigs

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  1. The Electric Company

    Here's a sweeping generalization for ya: if your boat has a sail area/displacement ratio below around 30-35 or so you probably cannot use a Torqeedo or any other electric propulsion, and if your boat has SA/D of 30 or above you might be able to realize the benefits of doing away with gas. Mine happens to be a multihull but advances in composite construction and boat design in the past 15 years or so make it entirely possible for a monohull to achieve similar SA/D and there are even some production monos that fit the bill. For reference, my boat displaces around 3800lbs/1700kgs and the Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 pushes it just fine. I can get around 12nm range from a single battery at close to hull speed and around 24-30nm at 4-5 knots. Some like to fret about what happens in wind and chop. It's pretty simple: if there's wind and chop, I'm sailing, not motoring. SA/D of 30+ also happens to coincide with my personal definition of "fun". I've sailed a lot of boats, up to a 44-foot steel-hulled behemoth, and I've learned that the more a boat displaces (relative to sail area), the less fun it is to sail. And there's a direct relationship between the SA/D ratio and the amount of time you spend motoring. If your boat happens to be one of the few sailboats that actually spends most of its time sailing, then a Torqeedo is a totally viable option. No offense to any of the many folks out there who are actually crossing oceans: your boats are probably quite heavy and conservatively rigged, and rightly so, but you're not sailing for "fun", you're living a lifestyle. It seems to me that 99% of boats that are capable of crossing oceans never actually do so. People buy boats like they buy cars. They buy them for what they *think* they're going to do with them, not what they *actually* do with them. Fortunately, the SA community seems to have a very high proportion of people who bought boats appropriate to their actual usage. Regarding generators: I think it's a bit silly to use fossil fuels to generate electricity to power a motor when you could use the same fuel to directly push your boat. And keep in mind that the generator is going to have to be coupled with a specialized high power charger, which starts to push the cost of electric power from the realm of "expensive" (even by boat standards) to "outrageous". The only time I see this as a viable option is if 90% of your motor usage is within the range of your batteries, and once or twice a year you want to go further. If I'm going beyond electric range, I just use the dinghy outboard to push the big boat.
  2. I have been using a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 on my Farrier trimaran (32' LOA, around 3600 lbs. displacement) for almost 2 years now. I don't think their power claims are totally off-base. It's slightly less powerful than my Tohatsu 6, and far more reliable. It will push my boat at over 6 knots in flat conditions. The Tohatsu would also push the boat at 6 knots, at 80% throttle, screaming like a banshee. Of course, range at 6 knots is probably around 8 nm from a single Power 26-104 battery. At slower speeds, with 200 watts of solar in summer, I can get significantly more range, but it's a lot harder to estimate range than it is with gas, since it varies much more with sea and wind conditions.
  3. Torqeedo Report

    @richard: Genasun sounds like the way to go. From their web site it looks like they have a controller that can be tuned to match the Torqeedo battery voltage. @nelson: I like the idea of switching between the batteries, but I still need a converter like Richard's because the house is 12V and the Torqeedo 24V. @BS--nice boat. It sounds like we have almost identical experiences with range even though I have the 2.0 and you have the 4.0. That aligns with Torqeedo's range estimates on their web site. The 4.0 is more powerful but when moving the same mass at the same speed it's got the same range as the 2.0. However, I assume you have two Power 26-204 batteries since the 4.0 is 48 volts? My motor has the tiller mounted on the motor (i.e., not remote), and the connector seems quite watertight. Maybe they've changed it. My solar setup works well enough that I don't actually use the mains charger any more. If the boat sits at the dock for a few days, the panels charge both the house and Torqeedo batteries even in partial sun. It's too bad ORCA is so inflexible and short-sighted. As you say, your range is well within their requirements at just a few knots below hull speed. Their rules essentially eliminate any possibility of using electric power since you'd probably need 6 or 8 Torqeedo batteries, and your boat is already more efficient under power than 99.9% of boats today.
  4. Torqeedo Report

    That's good advice, but the problem is that no other controller can charge the Torqeedo battery--the voltage is slightly higher (28.4V) so a LiFePo4 controller will never go to float or absorption mode. But I'll email you in case that's not true. So I'm basically stuck with the Torqeedo controller. Since it takes 12-volt input and charges a 24-volt battery, I think you're spot on with the dc-dc conversion theory, although I have no idea what "buck-boost" means. In the interest of simplifying, I could sell the Torqeedo battery for a big loss and replace it with more of the LFPs, but I've already spent several boat bucks on this setup and I'm reluctant to dump a lot more money in. And I would still require a DC-DC convertor to power the house from the 24-volt Torqeedo bank, although the loads are far less.
  5. Torqeedo Report

    I'm at the end of my second season of using a Torqeedo on my Farrier trimaran, so I thought I'd post a summary of my experiences as well as a question I have for the solar experts out there. Pros: light weight, powerful, quiet, renewable. Cons: range, solar charging is unreliable, price. Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 with one Power 26-104 battery (104 amp hours @ 24 volts), 10A charger, solar charge controller, and 2x100-watt Renogy panels. Range obviously varies enormously with throttle setting. At max throttle the 5HP-equivalent will push my boat at around 6kts. It does reasonably well in wind and chop but does require full throttle, which kills the battery pretty quickly. The motor's range estimate at full throttle is usually around 6nm. At lower throttle, I can cruise at 3-4kts for anywhere from 20-30 miles. The motor is fantastic for motorsailing, since at a low throttle setting it's almost silent and consumes a few hundred watts, yet pushes the boat at a couple of knots--just enough to get the sails drawing in the faintest breeze, as long as you're not going dead upwind. For longer trips where I'll be bringing the dinghy, I can use "tugboat mode", where I push the big boat with the dinghy. It works far better than I expected. So much better that I picked up a used Nissan 8HP short shaft 2-stroke on Craigslist for this purpose. It's much more suitable for the dinghy than the 6HP Tohatsu 4-stroke (one of the least reliable motors I've ever used--basically useless if there's any ethanol in the fuel and if the fuel is more than a couple of days old). I really wish Tohatsu would do direct injection in the small 2-strokes because they are amazing in terms of power-to-weight ratio and reliability, but that's getting off topic. The downside to "tugboat mode" is that it means I'm towing a 95-pound dinghy with a 40-pound motor when I'm sailing or under Torqeedo power, which is a lot of drag. As I spend more time with the Torqeedo and get a better idea of how far I can go in specific conditions, I'm more comfortable with the idea of leaving the big dink and Nissan at home and bringing my 60-pound nesting plywood dinghy, which I can stow on the tramp or foredeck. My boat at one time weighed around 3500 lbs "race ready" (with the old Nissan o/b) but as I've slowly put it more into "cruising mode" it now probably weighs 4000 lbs and for actual cruising I probably have 800 pounds of crew and gear. I had problems with the Torqeedo initially that were most likely due to the tiller wiring connector. Spraying dielectric grease on the connection was ineffective, but a shot of WD-40 on occasion has kept it working properly for over a year. The motor, battery, cables, charger, etc. weigh a bit over 100 pounds. My old Nissan 9.8 weighed almost 100 pounds for the motor alone. Add starting battery, fuel, etc. and the total weight of the Torqeedo is less than the gas outboard setup. With even 3 gallons of gas the outboard had double to triple the range of the Torqeedo, and a second Torqeedo battery would add another 54 pounds. There's more weight in a better place with the Torqeedo, since the battery is belowdecks, compared to 100 pounds hanging off the transom. I would have a house battery in either case but my new house battery is a 15-pound LiFePo instead of a 60-pound dual-purpose lead battery. My only complaint about the motor itself is that it doesn't tilt as far as a gas outboard. Mounted on my transom fixed mount, it cavitates in chop yet the prop drags when sailing, even on the "high" tack. I'm in the middle of building a bracket to allow me to attach a 2-stroke lifting aluminum motor mount on the opposite transom. Last summer I had 2 Renogy "bendable" solar panels, which cranked out enormous power--I routinely got 120 watts from each 100-watt (rated) panel with the panels lying on the tramps, not even directly aimed at the sun. The downside was that they were too powerful, and tended to catch fire. (Nothing like hearing your 5-year-old say, "Hey Daddy, the boat's on fire!" They were recalled by Renogy and replaced with 100-watt fixed panels, which weigh a bit more and put out less power. The weakest link in the Torqeedo system is the Torqeedo solar charge controller. Last summer it was frequently overloaded by the bendable panels--not surprising since it's rated for 230 watts. This summer instead of overloading, it overheats, even in 65-degree ambient temperature. (Warning: now we're getting to the part of the post that will bore all but the most nerdy alternative power enthusiast, but here's where I'm getting around to my question). I also have two 12-volt, 50AH LiFePo4 batteries and a Bioenno charge controller (which is an *excellent* product). The idea was that I might want to connect the LFP batteries in series and then in parallel with the Torqeedo to extend my range. As it happens, the Torqeedo chemistry is sufficiently different that this won't work. Apparently the Torqeedo battery is LiNMC and the voltage is slightly different. So, I ended up using the LFP batteries as my "house" bank. The solar panels go to the Bioenno controller and the Torqeedo controller is connected as the load on the Bioenno controller. I've installed a breaker in the Torqeedo circuit. If it's closed, the Torqeedo controller is pulling 230 watts from a combination of the house bank and the panels--obviously, the less sun, the more power coming from the battery instead of the panels. As long as the Torqeedo has at least 50% charge, or there's some sun, it will not completely drain the house batteries. I have a monitor on that bank so I can prevent complete discharge. I suspect the Torqeedo controller was designed for 230 watts peak but not continuous, hence the overheating. And finally we get to my question. Which is a better option: installing heatsinks on the Torqeedo controller to keep it cool, or installing another a/b battery switch so I can switch the panels from the Bioenno controller to the Torqeedo controller and back. I'm not sure the first option is the best thing for longevity of the Torqeedo controller, but for the second option, I will have to monitor both banks and switch back and forth depending on which bank needs power. Plus, installing the switch means I no longer have the option of using the house bank as a range extender, unless I do some rewiring underway, or add yet another switch--and this system is complex enough already. Opinions? Other options? It would be nice to get the kinks ironed out, because 200+ watts of solar on a nice long Seattle summer day would extend my cruising range under power immensely.
  6. Sailtimer Wind Instrument

    Reviving this thread to see if anybody has received a Sailtimer yet. I ordered a SailTimer in November of 2014. Eventually they recommended I wait for the 2016 version (my mast is 42 feet), but we're basically at the end of the 2016 season and I haven't heard anything. I understand the product is in development, but has anyone except sailing magazine reviewers actually seen one of these in the wild? If not, I'm a bit skeptical about the viability of the company.
  7. Square top main?

    I am, according to google, 1.85 meters tall, and the headboard on my boat (F-32 rig) connects to the car probably 8' (2.4m) from the deck. I have a low boom but also a gap in the track above the boom to feed the cars (I have since heard advice that you can put the gap below the boom and feed the cars before attaching the boom--argh, wish I had heard that before taking router to sail track). A lot is going to depend on the setup of the particular boat: the Antal track has a section that pops in so no gap and therefore lower overall stack. However, it's not about the height, it's about the PITA factor of trying to hold the car at the proper height with one hand, while pushing the heavy mainsail into position (making shackle meet car) with another hand, then pushing the pin through the car with your third hand. I only have two hands, which explains why it's difficult for me. Granted, it only takes 5 minutes to either a) fiddle with the car and shackle or insert the diagonal batten with the batten stuffer, but when I want to sail, I want to sail NOW and 5 minutes less prep time = 5 minutes more sailing. If yours is easy, good for you. My square top batten was a minor irritatant for 6 years before the lacing solved my problem. Bill
  8. Square top main?

    It's a JPG, so I wouldn't think it would be too radical of a file. However, I am using a Mac these days, and aside from the nice keyboard feel, ultra battery life, and stunning display, the operating system is pretty much bollocks, especially the Finder. It ought to be renamed Cantfinder. In case the image gets up but isn't obvious, the lacing goes from the top grommet, through the top car, back through the grommet, and is tied off at the next (lower) car. Ignore the superfluous car in between. It probably helps that my topmost grommet is quite large and thick (so reduces friction) and the Rutgerson cars have a nice thick and round loop to go around. I've saved it as a PDF, so here goes... lacing.pdf
  9. Square top main?

    Inspired by this thread, I tried a lacing system on my square top, and I'm very pleased with it. It's nowhere near as sophisticated as the Doyle Anomaly system, but it only required a couple of bucks' worth of Dyneema, and works perfectly to draw the top grommet tight to the car as the sail goes up. Thanks for all the tips. I tried to attach a picture but got an error "you are not allowed to use that image or extension". Bill
  10. Square top main?

    Can you send a few pictures of your lacing system? I have a square top on my Farrier trimaran and like it, but I have messed around for years with trying to find a system to make it simpler. For a while I removed the top (diagonal) batten to flake the sail. More recently I've been leaving the batten in place and connecting the top car to the top grommet before hoisting. Both methods are kind of a pain, especially since I mostly daysail, frequently for just an hour or two, so anything I can do to get the boat going faster is goodness. Training Wheels, it does not appear that anybody who's replied yet has sailed the same boat with both sails, so you're getting a lot of perfectly valid opinions but no facts. It's quite difficult to determine whether it's worth the hassle unless you've used both on your boat. I sailed in San Francisco for years and it's windy enough there that the pinhead would probably have sufficed, but here in Seattle I'm glad I have the square top. I have heard that the ideal sail shape in terms of lift to drag ratio is elliptical (like the wing of the Moth airplane), so it's not simply a matter of sail area. For me, a sail capture/lazy jack system (mine is the "Lazy Cradle" from UK sails), Friedricksen cars, and a 2:1 halyard, combined make a much bigger difference in sail handling and ease of hoisting/stowing than square vs. pinhead. My trimaran mainsail is 60% larger than my old monohull mainsail and it's a lot easier to handle. Bill