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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.


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  1. It is not the sun but how the strap can distort when raising mast, which means it can tear easily. The normal bow roller used to raise mast has a concave roller, which forms the strap into a U shape, which can then tear on the sides of the roller frame. I used one about 5 times on the original F-27, and then it suddenly broke by tearing. Have thus always removed such straps since and replaced by line. Would be okay if bow roller was same width as strap and a parallel cylinder, but these do not work well as bow rollers for anchoring. So best to avoid straps when also being used to raise mast. Ian Farrier
  2. Just a mock up at this stage to see how it looked. Final load distribution will use two or three straps to spread the load more, and that should be plenty for this type of test. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  3. Not quite as impressive as the wing test, but we are almost ready to test break a foil: Jig and foil case still need some further reinforcement, and then just the tensioning system to fit, along with a digital load scale. However, I have to be at the Philippines factory next week, so the actual breakage will take place the week after. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  4. A post re your claims is now under the relevant Carbon Mast Topic at: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=172766&p=5271639 Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  5. Re Claims: Your quote to me by email on Dec 14, 2014 for supplying an Etamax mast for the F-22, in summary and converted to US$ (for a fair comparison), at that time was: Cost of bare 200 medium mast would be US$531 + GST per linear metre & an F-22R mast thus = US$5726 A fittings kit (Forestay lug, all sheave boxes, gooseneck, diamond stay fittings and spreaders but no stays or halyards) would be US$3984. Assemble the fittings to the mast, add diamond stays, and paint it would be US$3403 Making a total of US$13113. Include freight to NZ and net cost to my customers (zero margin) to put such a mast in the container with the boat would have been well over US$14000. The 200 section F-22 carbon mast fitted out to an equivalent degree, but also including all 4 halyards, PLUS halyard rope clutches mounted on the carbon foot (uncluttered deck), PLUS the gooseneck and stainless steel mainsail furling system, PLUS the matching molded carbon deck step. is US$13,438. So therefore my buying price from you would have been MORE than my selling price to F-22 owners, and for a less well equipped mast. As stated, I choose whatever offers best value to my owners, and I cannot recommend your masts until you get your pricing straightened out. Current exchange rates would improve your prices in US dollars, but still not nearlly enough My prices and specs are not hidden away, and are publicly available on the internet so a real comparison can be made - are yours? Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  6. It can be six of one, or half dozen of the other, with many aspects to take into consideration. Torbjorn (previously with Marstrom) has designed many of the masts that have been used on F-boats over the past 15 years, and has now done the F-45R mast. I started out with two sets of spreaders on the F-45R, and while to and froing, we changed to one long set with a large mast section. But the problem was no room for the jib, which would have then had to sheet on the cabin front - very awkward. Owner definitely wanted more overlap with jib sheeting on cabin roof, so we eliminated the spreader, and the jib then fitted fine. The only restriction is now on the screecher leach, but not by much. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work.
  7. Not that I'm aware of, there being many practical issues on larger boats. The F-45R was also never intended to be a full foiling boat, and the optional curved foils are only there to increase vertical and windward lift. The rudder T foils shown in the profile drawing are an owner driven addition and are being built by Waterrat. I have reservations, but Kim is a clever and innovative sailer, so it will be interesting to see how they go. I had put curved foils aside in 1985, but was only convinced to try them again by Kim demonstrating the potential performance possible with the straight foils on his F-31 Cheekee Monkee. Should the curved foils and T foils work well, then we will have the option of adding full lifting foils using the existing foil cases later, but right now that is an expensive step too far. Moderate curved foils are a marketable item as they will improve performance plus also increase room inside, without huge additional cost. Full lifting foils are much more difficult and expensive, with additional risks, so would be a hard sell. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work.
  8. Thanks for the comments Keith, and pleased to hear you are enjoying your Sprint. And for those interested in F-22 progress, the factory website was updated last week http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News5/FM-Factory2016.html Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs That work
  9. My first ever tri back in 1969 had an old Piver style plank mast with triple spreaders initially, but it came down in a southerly buster. Replaced it with a spreaderless mast and loved it - never had a problem. However such a mast was not possible with my early folding boats as the fixed mast as used then would have fallen down when folded, so I went with conventional fixed inner stays to the center hull and one set of spreaders - the Trailertri was radical enough without experimenting with the rig as well. One can also have trouble with overlapping head sails. However, now going with a spreaderless mast (no shear web) on Kim Alfred's new F-45R, and while it was a bit of a juggling match with getting headsails to work, it is all looking very good now. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News5/F-45andF-45RUpdate.html Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  10. Ian Farrier, on 21 Mar 2016 - 09:02 AM, said: Yerp - I see boeing is doing oval wings on their next plane. Funny, have never seen a reefable mainsail being run up a plane's wing before takeoff, nor have I ever seen the cabin crew trying to fly a spinnaker from the wing tip once under way. We could of course always use a full wing on a sail boat, whereupon it would be a true wing shape, but that is entering another whole new world of impracticality and marketing disaster. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  11. All these carbon mast posts are completely obscuring the original topic of 'F32 structure failure in Mooloolaba' so time to move it to a more relevant heading. Thus in reply to: Nelson, Can't help with the other manufacturers specs and prices, but Alex and the C Tech guys are pretty easy to get on with, so drop them a line. Kiwi dollar is pretty low, which will help. Freight will be a couple of grand, so check out Hall, Forte and Ted van Deusen in the USA as well. Masts from all of the above have been used on f-boats over the years, but there are some things to be careful of. For info contact me direct. Beefing up the 200 series mast, or going to the next size up (300 series) is no problem for the more powerful boat. There are also some other options, which reduce the weight considerably. If the 60 kg mast Goldfinger mentioned had been built the same way as the proposed F22R mast, it would have weighed 77 kgs. The 300 section Southern Spars oval mast as used on the F-33R actually weighs 62kg. The alloy wing mast weighs 75kg. What do we disagree on? 3:1 wing masts are more efficient than 2.5:1 wings which are more efficient than 1.8:1 ovals. And that this is why most racing multis use wing masts Have you still not noticed that racing multihulls do not sell well? I am designing and marketing racer/cruisers that offer room, good value for money, and a resale value. A plank wing mast just does not fit in that picture. What does the oval mast weigh? If it has 5mm walls (difficult to scale from the photo) and no tapering of laminate or section, it should weigh 47.5 kgs vs the untapered 200M at 37 kgs. It actually weighs 35kg with only one diamond, plus masthead is strong enough to fly a masthead spinnaker without any extra side stays. Very practical and user friendly. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  12. Agreed, but I it seems those with no orders or boats to build can do nothing else but criticize others who do. However, sometimes their claims are so wrong that one has to answer, and now I can see even more false claims being made. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine Designs that work
  13. Jeepers Rob, that's quite a spiel. I have known you for a long time, but we will always disagree on some things. I've also seen many of your numerous debates on Proas etc., all of which seem endless and a very unproductive use of time. So let's just leave it at we disagree on masts, their shapes, and shear webs. I made my decision on which masts to use for the F-22 based on what I considered would work best for customers, and what represented the best value, with every aspect taken into consideration. I would now rather concentrate on developing, building and selling practical boats, than an endless public argument about masts. I'm sure there are F-boat home builders who could be interested in an Etamax mast, and it could be a good option for many. If it meets the plan specifications then it is their choice, and up to them. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine, Designs that work PS : I now prefer an oval carbon mast as it is a structurally superior shape - it also measures 200 x 113 by the way, not 145 x 95. A narrower wing mast may be a little faster, but a plank like mast is not a good structural shape and will end up heavier, as do narrow aluminum wing masts. Not the best for a general purpose trailerable where the mast can be handled frequently. I try to design practical roomy boats that work, that are easy to rig, and am not interested in offering absolute performance at any cost, as such boats just don't sell.
  14. Correct, but the white substance is gelcoat, not glue (which is not needed) plus it is not as water resistant as gelcoat. This is also how our rudder blades and daggerboards are made, with not one single breakage in 8 years. But the basic issue with these curved foils is that they were never intended to fully fly the boat, as has been attempted. I could see strength as being a major problem when building the original foils for the prototype F-27, and this was a big part of deciding not to use them in production way back then. Making them strong enough for full flying is very difficult (and expensive), and this is why they were always required to be progressively withdrawn as the wind increased over 12 knots. The foils were only ever intended to be a buoyancy supplement, and using the foils as shown above (in 25 knots and big seas) will virtually guarantee breakage. It is also very obvious that the section is not big enough to be that deep in those conditions. The only other way they can be used or warrantied without any restriction is to shorten the foils by 500mm (20") so that they cannot be overloaded. However, that would greatly diminish their effectiveness in lighter winds (where they are effective), which is why I decided to leave them long with restrictions. But that is starting to look like a big mistake. To make them strong enough for full flying would required larger section foils, more weight, and more expensive materials and process. This all means much greater expense, and few would buy them. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine, Designs that work
  15. They are also long, but this makes the mast stronger, and better able to support a reefed mainsail, which also means mast can be made a little lighter. The question then becomes will they clear the jib leach, which is always one of the first things to look at in the design stage, and also on the first sailing test. But should be ok. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine, Designs that work