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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

samc99us

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  1. I don't think I mentioned going crewed non-stop around the world in a 60' monohull, but you do point out a limitation with sailing non stop around the world in any race or platform. IDEC deliberately went short handed in their recent record to reduce the weight of stores, and I suspect this will be a key point for this and future editions of the VOR, and why Dongfeng's selection of experienced short handed sailors is going to pay dividends beyond their other capabilities, as on longer legs that will see light air they could be a quarter ton lighter in simple food stores running a minimum crew.
  2. Interesting point sparrow, I missed that one as well. I can see some of the reasoning, but I think many of us would prefer a 70' open design (even if VPLP are probably in the best position to do the design, without competition things can get stagnant). Francis I agree with your overall view. At least one Open 60 has been converted to full foiling from a previous generation, we have 1 MOD70 and 1 Ultim (Sodebo, http://www.catsailingnews.com/2017/05/sodebo-ultim-re-launched-as-offshore.html) that have also been converted. Recall that Sodebo started life as the old Geronimo built in 2001. That's a hell of a lifespan, but certainly these boats are babied a bit more than a Volvo Ocean Race fleet. No one knows what the future holds, but I think both boats can be built to reasonably handle future foiling designs. They won't be as on the edge as the Ultims or the IMOCA's as they are one design so a little extra structure doesn't hurt.
  3. Impressive, but man that is a lot of foil in the water!!
  4. I agree with rgeek here, the bill sounds like they are going for GC32's or AC45F's. I do think the concern about these boats overshadowing the offshore boats at the stopover is real, and one reason why I'm a fan of multi's for this, they just get a lot of attention at the docks as they are vastly different from what you normally see in the harbor. At the same time, you may get a lot of attention at the stopovers as the sailing crowd can now see two state of the art disciplines up close, and from an ROI standpoint you get double the advertising and increased market exposure. The race has long since separated itself from the every man boat, perhaps the closest thing is an old rules TP52 or similar mini maxi but even these are pretty different beasts from a V70 or V65, none of which really cater to your "everyday" sailor. Hell, Nacra has sold more N15's and N17's than probably all the worlds canting keeled mono's combined, so in a sense a multi is more appealing to the general public, but I also understand the decision to stick with monos offshore for the 2019 edition. The trouble with using either the new foiling mono or an offshore cat is they are too slow to tack and too fast on a tack to really work in a spectator friendly environment, and you have a lot of bits hanging out that are dangerous and might break, so a separate ride is really prudent for the inshore races. To date I don't see any fully crewed foiling sportboats, thus the move to a multihull. Multi's are more exciting, and I think their should be a rule requiring at least half the offshore crew on the inshore boat. I don't think the boat speed differences are going to be that big, an offshore fully foiling monohull is still a >30kt weapon, and in the same speed realm as the inshore multi. Biggest change is tactics.
  5. That is very good to know USA190520. In fairness I have one piece of Isotak 1 gear (Smock) that has roughly 3,700nm on it and it's holding up fine. I like the fit of the Isotak range and the weight, they are very light, so as long as the QC stays up I'll give them serious thought again when I need a replacement set.
  6. I think this a silly move by Volvo, for one reason: future proofing. If they had gone multi, they could have relatively easily retrofitted the fleet for full foiling in the future when the tech was a bit more proven. With this, not really an option, though I'm optimistic the boats will sail well despite some of the lack of elegance in the renderings. I think the pitchpole issue is a bit overblown, especially at this level, as they are professionals and plenty of boats have done RTW sailing non stop without pitchpoles. Yes, in the late 90's and early 2000's this was a real risk but I think today with C-boards and t-foil rudders it is a very manageable risk and no more dangerous than putting a balls to the walls foiling monohull deep in the southern ocean (as this is also unproven tech I may point out, the last vendee boats were semi foiling, not full). I suspect the stopovers played more of a roll than anything, along with Volvos deep tradition of monohulls.
  7. Groucho these foils can be scaled to 15%. Performance starts to suffer, in my experience, going much past 14% in thickness. Really that meat is only needed up through where the board exits the trunk, below that 12% thick foils can get the job done. It also depends on the laminate, you can use the 10% thick foils with a high modulus carbon spar and be perfectly fine, and lighter to boot. S-glass would be another decent choice for durability, but I would stick with > 12%.
  8. +1 to the latter. Maybe throw a different rudder blade on there and go test it medium winds?
  9. I agree Zhik has fantastic customer service, always treated me right. The trouble is their Isotak range has let me down more than once, leading to cold, wet bottoms and tops halfway across oceans. I expected more out of the product than they advertised/tested and should have been wearing heavier duty gear, but even in far less demanding situations I've had the original Isotak line fail on me (seam failure and material delamination). Zhik has always replaced the product no question asked, but how much real-world testing has the Isotak 2 and Oceans range actually undergone? Their dinghy range has had extensive testing and for me Zhik is the go-to brand for dinghy work but for serious offshore work I'm holding off on them for a few years until their products get some very serious, lengthy offshore time. Gore-Tex is a well proven product and Musto has a pretty high reputation in the offshore community, and even then we had some MPX fail on us in the 15 day transat 2 years ago, HPX drysuit survived as did a Gill Drysuit. My point in all this is you are better off going up the range and spending a little more upfront for a product that will most likely get the job done today, tomorrow and 5 years from now.
  10. Rasputin, NACA 0010 and NACA0012 have similar stall angles, and really the drag delta is fairly low. Go with what makes sense for you structurally. The 63012 IMO offers little benefit beyond the 0012 for increased build sensitivity. I do know the A-cats found the 10% thick foils higher performing even once the widened the board chord such that a board with 10% thick airfoil was the same physical thickness as a board with 12% thick airfoil. This likely has the added benefit of increased stall margin (wider chords are more forgiving, all else being equal). The E836 offers a nice low drag bucket, which is relatively wide, while the penalty is a bit higher drag at high alphas and a lower CLmax. You shouldn't be operating outside the bucket or at high stall alphas, so it is my first choice and a popular one on the latest high performance <20' catamarans. The E836 is in dark blue here, the dark green is the NACA 0012, the beige the NACA0010, and the NACA 63012 is in light blue. Data from here: http://airfoiltools.com/compare/index I prefer my own analysis but its a busy morning here and this was quick.
  11. I really need to collate some data on the affects that accuracy has on foils. The numbers can be staggering, depending on the velocity and chord length of the board. I'm rather surprised at the construction method, that sounds like a labor intensive (read: expensive) and inaccurate way to build a foil, but that was probably done before every garage mechanic and there neighbor had a CNC router. There is a report out from the University of Southhampton I believe detailing the airfoil selection for the 505. It actually states a NACA 0010 is a better section than a 6-seres laminar flow section, as the latter is particularly unforgiving and hardly better performing, but I believe it is what was used on most of the in-vogue foils for that class (and others for that matter). NACA 4-series sections are rather forgiving to inaccuracies in initial shape. I have studied the Eppler E836 at length and for the most part it outperforms the others out there when used in a daggerboard. A thin trailing edge makes a big difference to performance.
  12. http://www.davidwaltersyachts.com/sail/48-Chris-White-Catamarans-1995/150 Just a quick search on google.
  13. Pax, I'm local and sometimes available, weeknights are tough for me to get down to Solomons. I don't yet have a governors cup ride though and would give it serious thought if I had a ride on a fast multi... For your boards, you have PLENTY of meat at the leading edge. The primary bending loads are at the 1/4 chord so the glass at the leading edge is serving to close out the torsional forces (2-4 layers would do that easily) and primarily for dent resistance. This is about as good as it gets for daggerboard foils, so I would re-shape to something similar: http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details?airfoil=e836-il
  14. I'm no expert on this, but I have been thinking about it a lot lately. This is a good primer: http://www.catsail.com/archives/v2-i8/feature1.htm http://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Articles/Trimaran-Weather-Helm-Pt2.html Your boat was designed to sail with boat boards down upwind. If you raise one, you transfer the side slip forces over to the remaining foils, including the rudders. This generally leads to a heavier helm, most noticeably weather helm, though sometimes it can cause lee helm depending on your sail setup. My suggestion is to sail the boat as intended by the designers, and run a balanced helm as that makes steering easier and leads to higher average speeds. Good luck.
  15. Just canards. Aft (in the prop wash) were rudders. They tried different configurations and eventually realized that the canard stalling before the main wing was safer (i forget if this was before or after the original 1903 Flyer that they understood the canard vs. elevator, but I believe after). It actually saved their lives on several occasions during the initial glide testing, even if it was an accidental development. Otto Lilienthal was killed years early by stalling his hanglider and breaking his neck. The Wrights had very little power to work with, a whopping 12hp, so did their best to develop proper propeller blades and airfoils, and the use of a biplane configuration nearly doubled their lift without quite doubling the weight of the wing. They didn't have carbon fiber or even fiberglass back then, so wood was the choice and any way to build a lighter plane was sought. Most early aircraft were wooden biplanes, not until aluminum was available at reasonable prices did the creation of what we commonly think of as the modern airplane happen. I would not use a canard configuration on a foiling platform. Some have suggested it. Maybe it will work well. I have many doubts. First, none of the canard or tandem wing aircraft I've seen or flown are particularly pitch stable. Second, canard aircraft typically have very low C.G margins, which isn't good on a sailboat, certainly not a cruiser. Third, getting foils near the bow isn't efficient structurally, i.e its heavy. Fourth, the ventilation issue mentioned here is real. I can go on and on. Separating lift and leeway is an option of course, but surprisingly I agree with some other opinions expressed here that it isn't ideal for a cruiser. pivoting centerboards are probably the most ideal for a cruiser, but if you seek performance, C-boards+ pivoting t-foil rudders are about as good as it gets.