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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

The Jay

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About The Jay

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  1. Sailing & Millennials that just don't get it.

    One of the good things about being a bad parent is that when you get old, your kids can become your dealers.
  2. Sailing & Millennials that just don't get it.

    The same sort of complaint was written about These Damned Kids Today in the early 1960s. In the mid '70s people said the rise of boats like the Laser was down to those same useless Damned Kids of Today. In the mid '80s, they said that the rise of windsurfing was because of These Damned Kids Today and their lack of skills and persistence. Those Damned Useless Kids of Today have been around now for getting on 60 years. Wonder if they'll ever grow up?
  3. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    You want absolute numbers? 3 (yes, 3) youth in the Moth worlds 2016. About 20 (the page won't load and I'm assuming 50% of those born in the right year were Youths during the regatta) in 2017. In contrast, there were 97 Youth at the Europe European titles (can't find world title figures); from 30 to 35 each year in the Finn worlds; and of course the Laser Radial youth worlds are limited to 400 sailors and get 190+. So if you want to go by absolute numbers - the figure you chose - you'll see many more youth in other classes, including Hobie Dragoons and other "minor" classes. You can't wish away the cost issue, and there's no reason to ignore the classes sized to smaller sailors - if you did that you would have to ignore about 70 years of the Moth's own history. Examples from one country getting 5 boats isn't much of an indication about what is happening elsewhere. If anyone thinks that there is a research-based argument that watching high tech inspires people to participate in sport then they haven't checked the research or the actual figures of sports participation.
  4. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    It's pretty damn simple. If you don't want sidetracks, don't buttress your case with claims you don't back up. If you do rest your posts on claims you don't back up, you have to expect people to take issue with them.
  5. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    That's not just facile, to use your term, but apparently incorrect. Over the last two years, the Youths have made up 11% and 4.4% of the Moth Worlds fleet respectively; earlier results are unavailable. Comparable non-Olympic singlehanded classes like the Aeros and Europes show higher proportional youth numbers; at the UK Aero nationals 18% were youth. There were 97 Youth at the last Europe class Europeans, for example. Even the Finns get more Youth to their worlds; the reason they have an older average age is because of their enormous Masters fleets which is not exactly a bad thing. Even then they sometimes have a higher proportion of youths than the Moth worlds! It's not just cost, although that can't be ignored and it's an inherent issue. The boats are fucking wonderful, foiling is shitloads of fun, but just like strawberry icecream it doesn't suit everyone. Anyway, end of sidetrack.
  6. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    I didn't say it's a fat earth or that a lot of kids don't love performance so don't put words in my mouth. The point was that no one answer fits all, and therefore there's no reason that a younger team will be more interesting in super high speed.
  7. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    And few people I knew were into the foiling cats. I've just indicated that I've had pretty good awareness of the sailing kids, and the ones I know don't think that foiling is the future. We've had modern foiling for over a decade now and if it was the future - rather than part of the future - it would be much, much bigger. Check out how much bigger cat sailing, windsurfing and kiting were when they were this old- it's simply beyond comparison. And they did not become "the future"; they are still smaller than sailing seahugging dinghies. Many Opti kids today are younger than modern foiling; to them it is older than life itself. I'm not assuming anything; I'm listening to the youth who I have sailed against and who have crewed for me, and looking at a lot of other information such as research on why people do the sports they do. Your assumption that I am assuming is not based on reality. Yes, the 50 foot wingmasted cats in Bermuda were foiling in light winds. So what? That's like saying that because Miss Nylex and Aquarius could fly hulls in 6 knots and beat a 12 Metre back in 1976, all the kids were going to sail wingmasted cats in the '80s. In fact, kids largely ignored cats and still do. They've never been stupid, ignorant or browbeaten by authority or misguided ambition - they just don't care about going as fast as possible. People have been saying for decades that if cats got into the AC, they would boom. In fact there is no objective information whatsoever that I can find that indicates that cat sailing is bigger now than it was a few years before. That's just one example, along with earlier claims like "skiffs are the future" and "windsurfing will boom now we've gotten rid of longboards and are promoting sinkers" that has proven that claims that any sort of high-tech high-speed are "the future" and loved by all young sailors should be treated with grave suspicion.
  8. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    Yes, as a parent, relative, skipper, competitor and coach. I've run a small new class for juniors, introduced kids to new and faster forms of sailing and seen them go on to do the Youth Worlds and Olympic efforts, sailed with and against teens who have gone on to race skiffs, foilers and kites at world level, and scared kids shitless on my own high performance kit.
  9. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    But there doesn't seem to be any relationship between youth and liking "high speed tech". The Moth fleet isn't particularly full of young sailors. In the strong clubs I've recently sailed in there are no such parents, coaches, sponsors or national sailing organisations, and yet each club has had just one Moth out of about 60 dinghies. Of those 60 dinghies only two or three in each club have the faintest interest in the Olympics, so such people and their aims are irrelevant. On the other hand, we've had people who say that learning to foil an essential skill to the AC, that foilers are the future, the industry has been promoting them as the answer to all the sport's ills, and World Sailing itself has been pushing foilers so they now have a completely disproportionate amount of medals. That looks like an enormous amount of promotion for foilers.
  10. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    If there was any relationship between youth and wanting to go high-tech-speed, why do almost none of the many hundreds of youth who race Optis, C420s, CFJs, Radials, Lasers, Sabots etc go into the minute fleets of foilers?
  11. Sure, and unless they are being very well sailed they can become troublesome in the very light stuff (Asso 99s can look fast in comparison, and they are an ancient design) and fall over in the strong stuff as well. But much of that applies to a 75 foot version. No big mono can hold an equivalent multi so why even bother? Monos are great but they are just not as fast so let's concentrate on what they are good at and not what they are weak at.
  12. So where are the race results showing Q23 style foilers winning races and beating foiling cats? In fact, where are the race results showing Q23 style foilers consistently winning races ahead of fast sportsboats?
  13. Okay, it's a mono - but it's a mono of a type that most sailors still can't relate to and it would be much slower than a multi. It's also a bit doubtful if a new class should be modelled off one that is effectively almost dead; surely that says something about their appeal. The Libera A class is down to about three active boats I think, and last time I saw them there was a huge disparity in their performance.
  14. Thanks Chopper. Interesting. Thanks for the info..
  15. So how do those kitefoiler speeds compare to an AC50's speeds? If the foilers are hitting 40 knots then even with the foiling cats we were back to the same situation we had with surfcats and 12 Metres in the 1960s and '70s, when a cheap "beach craft" was faster than an AC boat. Obviously the speeds are utterly different, but back in the day many people felt that it was ludicrous that the AC boat was slower and they ignored that the two boats were completely different beasts. From some angles it seems as if we are back in the same situation but now it's the cat that is the bigger and slower craft.