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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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  1. North sails ,pricing, discounts

    The difference between RAW and Endurance is mostly in the outer surface treatment. The exterior tapes on Endurance are heavier and more resistant to abrasion, so they result in a more durable sail. RAW exteriors are lighter and more flexible which makes them better for performance, but they are not as durable. In either case, the basic structure is the same with 760 being a spectra / aramid blend and 780 being spectra / carbon, although I think it has some aramid, too.
  2. Make sure that you and your sailmaker have the same definition of "adding a furler". Do you just want to go from having to install and remove the sail every time to just being able to roll it up and walk away, or does it might mean sailing with a partially furled sail in heavier air? What attaches it to the stay doesn't matter that much, but the sail sizing and structure does. If you buy a hank on sail now, and want to roller reef it in the future, it needs to be built as a roller reefing sail. If the furler is not allowed for in the sizing, the geometry change a later furling conversion requires may compromise the sail structure. Buying the sail now and adding the furler later should not make any difference, as long as you are clear about long term expectations and plan accordingly.
  3. Defending an existing PHRF rating

    I regularly tell people that PHRF isn't really handicap racing. Just go out and sail the course as best you can. If at the end of the day you can say you made no mistakes, you won. If you did make mistakes, you have things to work on. But judging the success or failure on the day by handicap results based on a system where everything is by declaration and nothing is actually measured is a waste of energy.
  4. FP - DEAD WEIGHT - Hatin' on RC44's??

    A group of owners bought into a concept that produces close racing with a mixed format at venues they choose. Each has chosen a to compete at a level that mixes a lot of pros and the boat is just a vehicle. They may not be the coolest nor the fastest, but they are what the owners have decided is fun. The concept of Owners getting together to organize their own racing is what's so missing in the sport today. More owners of like boats in an area should get together and organize their own classes and then decide on events to do as a group. There are plenty of examples of success and failure at this, both for OD classes and development / handicap classes. In the end it all comes down to having a a firm grasp of what level of competition makes the group comfortable and keeps them from drifting away.
  5. PHRF and Overlap...

    And people really expect meaningful results from a system that measures to the nearest yardstick?
  6. Local paper has some detail: https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/01/22/dramatic-video-shows-rescue-of-sailboat-slamming-into-redondo-beach-breakwater/
  7. VOR Leg 4 Melbourne to Honkers

    Shouldn't Vestas show up on the Marine Traffic AIS map? I don't see anything in the area that looks like convergence on an accident and no sign of Vestas. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:114.700/centery:22.049/zoom:13
  8. 12-meter rig dimensions

    International 12m Class generic rig: There are wide variations on J, E & SPL
  9. why am i here?

    Back in 1980, I had all but signed up to do the Whitbread. A couple of friends on board were pushing me to join them and it seemed the right thing for a 25 year old to go do. Then there I was at the front of the railbirds on a 65 footer in the St. Pete to Ft. Lauderdale race. We were just south of Miami, going upwind in 25+ and launching off the Gulfstream Condo waves. The water was warm but the air was cold and I was soaked through and it sucked. As I huddled there in misery, knowing the finish was just hours away, I wondered what it would be like when the finish was weeks away. As much as I love to sail, I hate being miserable. I decided right there to take a different offer and move to California where long, cold, wet beats are not on the menu. Sure, I sometimes regret not having sailed around the world, but I did different sailing that was just as fulfilling. I've rarely had to be miserable for more than a few hours and I just can't see the point in being so just to prove how tough you are. That said, if I were 25 today, I'd be looking for a VOR ride......
  10. Re-Cut head sail

    You better get some 10cm wide PSA Aramid tape to apply along the foot. The cloth is totally on the bias and has no strength at all. And this isn't a string sail, it's a tri-radial.
  11. Re-Cut head sail

    I've done dozens of these, bigger and smaller, all types of sails. C-Cut Dacron, no problem, you can get a triangle with some shape. Cloth weight may not support use in 130% conditions if you plan on using it as a #2. Any radial cut, it gets expensive to do. You spend the dough to have it done right which involves opening the joiners and moving the sections around to get the geometry right. Age and condition of cloth critical to success. You can also do the quick and dirty and hack off an edge. Save the bucks up from but the sail will be a shitter. Total WOFTAM to even try on a string sail. 3Di may have more possibilities, but it wouldn't be cheap to do right. Bottom line is if all you need is a simple triangle and the fabric is in good shape. give it a go. Anyone that races with a sail like that will get spit out the back by any boat with a sail properly designed and built to fit.
  12. Spinnaker cloth Airx v Superkote

    You need to have your sailmaker look at what you've got. If in fact you have two .75oz sails and you are racing in the Seattle area, then you're going to need a sail that is optimized for 90-120 AWA (best VMG under 8-9k) using "Half Ounce" material in your terms. As I said, the only noticeable difference between the Airx 600 and the Superkote 60 is maybe how they handle sloppy conditions. You couldn't test the difference in fabrics, but a lot of trimmers prefer the SK in the bump.
  13. Spinnaker cloth Airx v Superkote

    Cloth weights and deniers are not the whole story. What you can't tell without some expertise is that there are a lot of tradeoffs made to hit weights. Contender has 4 styles with 30x30 construction with weights between 36 & 43 grams. A basic law of sailcloth is that you can't make it lighter unless you leave something out. It this case, some tiny savings might be due to finish, but most are due to leaving out a few picks (yarns per inch) in either the warp or fill. On radial sails, fill yarns are less critical, but some of these drop warp yarns and that results in a weaker sail. Airx and Superkotes of similar weight are generally pretty similar in performance. The Airx has a slightly firmer finish and a lot of trimmers think it's less stable in bumpy conditions. Sail codes are pretty generic representations. It's critical for the Client and Sailmaker to listen to each other and be clear on what the sail needs to do first, then decide which "Code" it should be. The client should start with what sails he has and the wind angle and speed ranges he thinks they cover. Then he should define what he expects the new sail to do the most. That will heavily depend on his local conditions and the boat type. With a vague recollection of sailing Olson 30's, I can make some pretty educated guesses: In 8k of true wind speed, the target is around 140 TWA with boatspeed around 5.5k. That results in a 97 degree AWA with the sail feeling only 5 knots or pressure, In 12 true, the target TWA goes to around 160 with the speed around 6.25, so the sail feels 140 degree AWA and 6 knots of pressure. In lighter wind, the AWA will get tighter, but the sail won't feel much more pressure. Overall, either the Airx 600 or SK 60 will be fine as a medium runner / AP spinnaker.
  14. Containers at sea

    In over 50 years of sailing offshore, I've seen a floating container exactly once, about 20 years ago. About a third of the way to Hawaii, floating with about a meter of one corner exposed and some metal wreckage that looked like part of the tie down system poking up. We were in near calm conditions and actually sailed over to it to get a better look. If it was dark and you were surfing, it would have been like a can opener. I found this exchange from the May Seahorse interview with Marcel van Triest very interesting and equally frightening as the threat of lost containers: SH: And other obstacles… MVT: With Idec I occasionally gave them positions of oceanographic buoys – which they had no idea were out there. These are not on any chart and after I sent an image of one to Francis, he said, ‘This is really dangerous, they are like small icebergs!’ He was off Brazil at the time and said, ‘No doubt some small sailing boats have been lost in the name of science…’ SH: Fascinating – and frightening. MVT: So if you hit one of these steel buoys when you are doing 35kt you have an issue. If you look at the number of buoys floating around the world at a set depth, say at 1km down for a week then down to 2km then to the surface, it’s scary… there are over 100 of this type alone. I sent a screen shot to Idec of all the oceanic observations carried out in December from this kind of buoy, and it is a pretty dense pattern around the world. And these are not accounted for, they are drift buoys and just pop up at random. If you hit one with your foiling monohull, that is a UFO.
  15. PHRF Blows

    PHRF would work just fine if the owners were the handicappers and didn't put themselves first. But that ain't gonna happen. As DC once said, "Bet on self interest, it's always in the running". Seriously, way too much focus is put on the scorecard. Without fully measured boats and regular compliance checks on the fleet, it's all a joke. Take your boat and your friends and go sail the course to the best of your abilities. If you can look back after finishing and say you sailed the boat well, did a good job with the shifts and performed all of the required maneuvers without making mistakes, then you had a great day. Take that to the bar and celebrate. If there are areas you feel your lacked, target them for the next race. When you get to the point where most of your races are good days but you aren't getting on the podium, then you can look at two things; are your sails and gear up to snuff or is it your rating that holds you back? Back in the heyday of IOR, the Chicago YC had a scoring program that calculated the rating needed to have won for each boat. It was pretty rare that it was a matter of shaving a couple of tenths of a foot of rating that would have changed positions.