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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About harryproa

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  1. Maybe, but as far as I am aware, they were not shortlisted. Nor was the closed in cat or the proa. There were many more criteria (see list below) than simply flat out speed, folding, deck layout and foil layout. In fact, none of these were specifically mentioned. There was no weighting given to any of the criteria, ie they were all equal, apart perhaps from 'first and foremost it will be a test of sailing ability'. Or something similar, the Tender Document seems to have been removed? Test of sailing ability Looks fast and cutting edge Weight Total cost Maintenance cost Capsize recovery Simplicity Ease of build Ease of assembly Land storage, boats and containers Floating storage Boats per container Ease of use Sustainability Completeness of Package Sail in 30 knots Foil in 6 knots Foiling tacks and gybes Lake rig VIP enjoyment VIP ease of boarding Expansion potential I could not agree more about the Perisco guys. Great team indeed.
  2. bi-directional Proa

    Small/short proas work well. Heavy proas not so much. The smallest I (85 kgs/190 lbs) have built/sailed is a 15.5' flat bottomed ply proa with windward hull a bit bigger than yours. Worked a treat (about as quick as a Laser around the track) until it capsized and the stayed, keel stepped mast (65mm/2.5" alloy tube) sheered off at the deck when it hit the water. Next smallest is a 16'ter i built for my 8 yr old daughter and a friend to sail. It had rudders and a windsurfer rig. As you can see, crew weight was on the rear beam for best balance. This became the protoype for a short harryproa production run in China. Due to all the rudders I have broken, I am also quite experienced at steering with weight shift and sail balance. ;-) Based on that experience, I think you are on the right track. Sail it like a windsurfer and it will plane and overcome any displacement issues. Sailing it sitting down will be too hard and slow to shift your weight for steering. Maybe extend the deck to ww to widen your standing area if you want more rm, but i doubt you will until you get a bigger rig or serious breeze. Steering by moving the coe requires a fair bit of movement when you are too close to the wind or or on any off the wind course. A problem with bidirection jibs is the luff needs to be tight for upwind performance. Imparts big compression loads in the mast and makes it tricky to move the boom to steer. As well as moving the boom, you will have to adjust it's angle. Not sure you will do this with only two lines. Rockerless hulls respond to weight shift steering better than rockered hulls and are faster. Flat bottom hulls plane better. Multiple chines are hard work to build and won't plane, might be marginally better in sub planing conditions due to less wetted surface, but I doubt it on a boat like yours. Assuming the mast needs the stay to windward, it will also need a backstay for downwind. I would ditch them both and support it the same way you do a windsurfer rig. The other things I learnt on the little proas are that oar steering is hard work, rudders are a challenge and daggerboards a pain in the butt. But for upwind performance on a sit down proa for any length of time, leeway resistance and rudders are a necessary evil. Your boat should be fun to sail, but I suspect it will not scale up very far if you want to do more than reach back and forth. Look forward to hearing how it goes.
  3. Bucket List

    Looks close. Voting closes on the 23rd.
  4. Bucket List

    Many thanks to all who voted. It appears we are through to the final and another vote is required. Please visit http://www.foilingweek.com/pages/season-2017/foiling-week-awards-2017/foiling-project-award-by-persico-marine/ and vote again. Pictures and progress report on Foiling Bucket List (does not look as glitzy as the renderings, but will suffice to demonstrate what works and what doesn't) will be on the web page and facebook shortly. rob
  5. underwater swordfight - what is it?

    Another one https://www.dropbox.com/s/dce55h0rwt839ni/ST-VOR Foiler.pdf?dl=0
  6. Bucket List

    Thanks Tony. Was in a rush to go for a kite before the wind dropped. Too late to edit it. It should have read: Foiling Bucket List/Volvo Proa has been nominated for a Foiling Week award in the "Projects still in design phase but not yet in production" section, sponsored by Persico Marine, the high end race boats builder in Italy. Voting is open until the 16th November at http://www.foilingweek.com/pages/season-2017/foiling-week-awards-2017/nominations-for-foiling-awards-2017-are-open/ Contestants are: -Harryproa a new foiling proa by Rob Denney-Laureano Marquinez Nahuel Wilson monohull foiler MW680F-Pegasius Project by Sébastien Rogues-@infinityperformanceyachts 56 by Farr Yacht Design -Goodall Design viper foiler-Barracuda Yacht Design @inigo toledo 110ft 75 kts foiling superyacht Progress is being made on the conversion. The lee hulls and beam are ready for joining, the rudder mounts are in, the foils and rudders are made and the wand/foil/rudder linkage is sorted, but not yet installed, the steering system (combination of quadrant and tiller) is part built. Nothing is faired and there is still a lot to do, plus testing, breaking and fixing. And the rig.
  7. Bucket List

    Foiling Bucket List/Volvo Proa has been nominated for a Foiling Week award in the "Best New Project" section, sponsored by Persico Marine, the high end race boats builder in Italy. Voting is open until the 16th November at http://www.foilingweek.com/pages/season-2017/foiling-week-awards-2017/nominations-for-foiling-awards-2017-are-open/ Contestants are: -Harryproa a new foiling proa by Rob Denney-Laureano Marquinez Nahuel Wilson monohull foiler MW680F-Pegasius Project by Sébastien Rogues-@infinityperformanceyachts 56 by Farr Yacht Design -Goodall Design viper foiler-Barracuda Yacht Design @inigo toledo 110ft 75 kts foiling superyacht Progress is being made on the conversion. The lee hulls and beam are ready for joining, the rudder mounts are in, the foils and rudders are made and the wand/foil/rudder linkage is sorted, but not yet installed, the steering system (combination of quadrant and tiller) is part built. Nothing is faired and there is still a lot to do, plus testing, breaking and fixing. And the rig.
  8. Blue water performance cruiser - do they exist?

    I find it easier to define (and to eliminate) uncomfortable/irritating rather than comfortable. My list includes: Living on an angle, the motion of cats upwind in a seaway, not knowing what is approaching behind the headsail, launching the tender to get to the beach, rolling at sea or anchor, sailing under reduced sail at night, reducing sail in a squall, foredeck work, flogging headsails, tangled extras, high wind/big seas tacking and gybing, marina costs, marinas located more than an easy walk from the bright lights and shops, filthy commercial harbours and the low lifes that hang around them, not being able to motor at 10 knots when I am in a hurry and becalmed, tenders that can't take the whole crew to interesting locations at 20 knots, maintenance, capsizing, curved settee seats, paying for 15 tonnes of boat when 4 tonnes will do the job, climbing/pulling the rig to check it, wet sails down below, sails that are not setting correctly, driving a boat when it should be hove to, setting a parachute anchor over the bow, swept back shrouds, hauling out to scrub off, fixed rudders, antifouling, hitting floating objects or the bottom, gadgets and equipment required because the boat is not set up to be easily worked, crawling into a bunk or over my wife, air con because of poor air flow, gensets, waves slapping the stern of anchored fat arsed cats, bridgedeck slamming, stairs and ladders, nowhere to sit down when there are more than 20 visitors on the boat, lee shores, flaking sails, helmsperson and anchor person yelling at each other, fixing a hole in the hull, diesel in the bilges, needing a halyard to get an MOB on board, life lines and staunchions, not being able to see the stars at night, sitting in the midday sun, getting wet when I don't want to, raised or exposed helm seats, holding tanks, marine toilets, cold showers, Jeez, I thought that would be a short list. Did not realise I was so picky. ;-) No idea what is on your list, but if you make one, it may help you choose. Maybe start with the "can't do withouts" (mine includes all the cost, safety and performance items above) to get to a short(ish) list, then give the others a mark out of 10 for importance and use that to fine tune the selection. Then you "only" have to apply the how does it feel test (looks, appeal, gut feeling) to get the perfect boat Sailing performance is about weight, sail area, leeway prevention and length. Cruising performance adds ease of use and speed of changing gears to the mix. ie how long and how much effort it takes to prep the boat for a sail including getting sails up, down, trimmed and reefed. eg A mainsail that requires crew on the cabin top to unzip the bag and move the lazy jacks, careful steering into the wind and hard work on the winch to raise it and again to sheet it on, all hands on deck to drag it down in a squall and flaking and baggging at the end of the day will not get as much use as a smaller self vanging sail that can be hoisted, reefed, depowered and lowered on any point of sail and which automatically stows into a self closing boom bag. Performance is also about money. Smaller gear costs less, simple stuff is cheaper to replace, light boats need less grunt (engines and rigs) than heavy ones. Then there is the perception. Whizzing along at 20 knots without any spray, heeling or other sense of speed apart from the wind in your face gets boring sooner than heeling over, surfing down waves and seeing spray off the bow at 15 knots. You get there quicker but you mightn't enjoy the sailing experience so much. Of course, this needs to be tempered with outrunning storms and being able to sail off a lee shore with a rope around the prop, but for most cruisers, it is about enjoying the sailing, not breaking records.
  9. Gitana 17 on Foils

    r.finn, The blooper brings back memories. I trimmed one almost all the way to Hobart in 1976. Boat was an upwind machine, got a downwind race. The previous year, the opposite, finished dfl on corrected time. The following year got 2nd on corrected in an early Farr One tonner, which is also in Groucho's book. Your boat looks good, but if the pole angle is right, I suspect the blooper is pulling more sideways than ahead. Russ, That little outburst of sour grapes should really help the 'Brown nose Groucho' campaign. ;-) Read the book (or at least the chapter on harryproas) and it is obvious why interviewing you would make no difference to what he wrote. It is about you and your fan club's bad behaviour, and how I benefitted from it, not your excuses for it. It is an example of what the book is all about; kiwi yacht designers going up against entrenched orthodoxy and demonstrating a better way. Regardless, an interview would be a great read. Go for it, Gaz, and let me know if you want some questions ;-) You stalk me all over the forums with the same mud slinging about "proof" that I have been supplying for years. One of us is "creepy" and it ain't me. For the umpteenth time: I raced the early prototypes in Perth and Fremantle (home of the windy America's Cup), later ones in Brisbane and the Dutch and Finnish 50' cruisers have also raced. Results were as expected, based on weight, sail area, length and crew ability. Why would they be anything else? Aroha, an overloaded 40'ter crossed the Tasman Sea, surviving a 45 knot gale. It broke a ring frame, which was nothing to do with it being a harryproa. The owners description of the voyage and his endorsement of the boat is at http://harryproa.com/?p=1759#more-1759. All the others have done exactly what their owners wanted them to do (none of which was cross oceans), the first one is almost 20 years old, still going strong in the Timor Sea as far as I know. None of the large ones have been sold as the owners are happy with them. Several owners endorsements are on the Yahoo harryproa chat group or FaceBook page. Harryproas work. Get used to it. If proof was required that cautious cruising offshore does not prove a boat type then Team Pure and Wild provides it. TPW was sailed by Olympic sailors who pulled out of it's first and only race, stating it could not be sailed in more than 6 knots of breeze. If you were "a little bit like me", you would openly discuss your boats and mine, instead of following me around yelling Denney is a liar, then slinking off. I would love to hear your comments on my boats, and what you think I am lying about. I understand that it pisses you off that I am selling plans and you aren't, but the solution is not to denigrate me or my clients. It is to design boats that make sense, instead of difficult to sail, unsafe ones. Calling harryproa owners "morons" is low, even by your standards. The answer to your question is that they are a broad and varied bunch of really nice people who are not scared to try something that makes sense, rather than follow the herd with things that don't. Many of them have a lot of sea miles, some are relatively new to sailing. They value comfort, performance and cost effectiveness over hype, advertising and flowery magazine articles. They question everything I say, then make their decisions after checking on the logic, examples, facts and figures I use to support it. It is entirely up to you whether you endorse your boats for amateurs or not. And whether you do so in one of the world's most read magazines. Maybe you should put a disclaimer on the Madness kits saying they are only for professional sailors? Incidentally, another well known and experienced antipodean jounalist (CT49), has stated on Boat Design.net that "my clear message (is) that the Brown proas are not suitable for most people to sail offshore". Comments like these and yours are not going to look good if someone is unfortunate enough to have an accident. 1985 was indeed a long time ago. But it does not appear that you have done anything to fix the problems you referred to then, so it is still relevant. Is this the video you don't want people to see? The one with a 3.5 ton $350,000, 50' cruiser sailing effortlessly at wind speed with no extras? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA&t=254s or was it this one of a home built 25'ter being comfortably cruised up and down the rugged, windy West Australian coast, solo. Makes an interesting comparison with TPW, don't you think? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP2cYwi-f2I Perhaps you'd prefer this one of the 66'ter just launched in Portugal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&t=4s or another 66'ter, this one a 4 tonner designed and built by it's owner from infused flat honey comb cored panels https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1fsxnaYi-PM or this one of another 50 being sailed and shunted by a group of sight impaired first time sailors in Holland, something it has been doing for 10 years. It includes an 8 second shunt in 20 knots (13 minutes). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s or maybe this one of a folding harry (not my design) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVNGXqGPtE in New Zealand? Or this one of the 50'ter in the Brisbane Gladstone race? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOsgqrO59A Given your WB comments on your difficulty sleeping on your boats, and the risk of losing your mast when you gybe, the following might be of interest about the B-G. At 1 am on the first night, we were broad reaching up the coast in 20 knots of breeze under full sail. I was asleep down below, the owner (on his first ever race) accidentally gybed. The sails weathercocked and the boat drifted. While the owner was getting back on course, I went on deck, sheeted it on, then went back to bed. Because of the unstayed mast and balanced rig, there was no banging or slamming, no fear of the "rig being blown away" (quote from Cruising World magazine about your boat), no sails to be lowered and rehoisted and no fear of a wrong way capsize. Shortly afterwards a poorly engineered stainless steel rudder gudgeon failed due to crevice corrosion and we pulled out. The full story is on the chat group. These are warts and all videos. Plenty for you to criticise/discuss in them. There are others on www.harryproa.com. You ask how long am I going to keep this up? Dunno, but at least until you and your fan club stop providing me with ammunition and targets. My posts are all in response to aggressive or obnoxious posts by you or your fan club. Stop posting and I will have no need to. Most of your fan club appears to understand this, seems you are the only one who doesn't. Swangtang, This is not about proas, it is about Russ not liking the way I quote articles in Wooden Boat, Cruising World and Facebook to point out the drawbacks in his designs that aren't in harryproas. If it was about proas, he would be discussing proas. He isn't and hasn't for a long time. Now that he is getting angry (when someone as laid back as Russ starts swearing unnecessarily on a forum, it is a pretty good bet that they are angry), it is probably time he took a couple of deep breaths and asked himself whether it is worth the stress.
  10. Gitana 17 on Foils

    The original text from Wooden Boat magazine. Not sure if Russ still agrees with this or not, or whether he has changed the basic design to correct the shortcomings, but these were some of the things I corrected when I designed harryproas. .
  11. Gitana 17 on Foils

    Are the foils in the floats and rudders adjustable while they are sailing? How do they build the floats to ensure that the foil doesn't damage them if it hits a container at high speed? For those who find Russ' post on 28 October a bit cryptic, here is the back story. A while ago Groucho wrote a brilliant book about New Zealand yachting history, In it he wrote the following, amongst a lot of other interesting stuff: Begin edited quote: For generations there has been animosity between monohull and multihull sailors, centreboarders against keel boats, catamaran and trimaran - but the factions between the differing proa designs has escalated to a point far more intense than the other categories put together. The differing schools of thought intensified between the “traditional” Pacific flying proa platforms with their wire stayed rigs from Russell Brown in the US - and the Denney-type Pacific proa called Harryproas from Australia with their accommodation weight in the outrigger hull while having the unstayed rigs in the longer, but uninhabited main hull. Although the differences sound slight they are in actuality very different. Having confronted the US camp with this commentary, Denney's dry humoured, practical and anarchic school of thought has infuriated them. Perhaps the most damning for the US proas is that their guru, the very skilled Russell Brown, (son of famed trimaran designer Jim Brown) who has ocean travelled extensively in his 36 and 37 foot Pacific proas Jzerro and Kauri has, after originally writing in Wooden Boat that his proa designs were unsuitable for ocean crossings, now backtracked and refutes earlier claims. He does not recommend that they be used for this purpose. The largest problems seem to be the old capsize bugbear, shifting ballast to the windward float and the added danger that the rig could come down in an accidental gybe. The rig is naturally stayed on both sides of the platform but the leeward side is from the sponson but this is too narrow based for mast staying solidity. However Russ Brown, completely in tune and vastly experienced with his boats having designed and built them, feels there are few sailors capable of keeping his proa type on its feet and the rig erect. Therefore now he discourages others from taking his designs offshore - and hence there are small numbers of his sailing designs in existence. On the other hand the secure and safer to handle, freestanding rig Harryproa models are quite popular, relatively proa speaking, with examples sailing and being built in a number of countries – and Denney has let this be known Anzac style, pointing out US Pacific proa design deficiencies – to the horror and disgust of the somewhat spiritualistic Brown proa advocates. end quote Ever since he read this, Russ (and his fan club members, although these are getting a bit thin on the ground these days) has spent much of his time on the web trying to prove to Groucho that he is a nice guy so that Groucho will rewrite the chapter. He spends the rest trolling me to prove that what Groucho wrote is correct. It would be amusing if this much angst wasn't unhealthy.
  12. Bucket List

    Yeah. At one level, it was sarcastic, but there are a lot of really smart guys working on solutions so I am pretty confident it will not be long.
  13. Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

    I was referring to a hull with the stern cut off. ie a 35' Wharram vs the same boat with 3' cut off the stern and a transom added. The 35'ter will have more pitch resistance. Panoramix, "Not convinced" about how I respond to my trolls, the advantages of unstayed rigs etc i mentioned in my first post, or why harrys make sense? If the former, it is not important enough to discuss. Either of the latter, I am happy to talk about. Maybe you can give some specific examples of what you are not convinced about?
  14. Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

    ;-) Can't help with the unknown unknowns, but if you were to approach the harry option with the imagination, attitude and money that went into your boat, I am pretty sure the unknown unknowns would be neglible and far outweighed by the positives. All the information I have, including the successes and the failures, my experiences and that from owners, sailors and bystanders has been posted on the Yahoo harryproa chat group over the years. What worked and what didn't. The usual mix of heat and light, but some gems there if you look. There is a 66' harry which is, or soon will be, available for skippered charter in Portugal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&feature=youtu.be Panoramix, I should have used the sarcasm font. The trolls know their posts increase the interest in harrys, but they can't resist giving me a hard time. Therefore I thanked them for the opportunity, noted where to find the answers and added some more harry stuff. This seems to be the best way to deter the trolls. I used to have dozens, now it is down to two, neither of whom is much of a problem. The head troll has now arrived in this thread, so the vitriol might start to flow. Left Shift, From the Mutihull Mailing List: "I watched Rob shunt his 25' proa upwind up the narrow (35m/120' wide for most of it) boat filled channel in front of his house so fast and easy I thought he must've had an electric motor hidden in the leeward hull. I would've had a very difficult time doing it in a beach cat without stalling, hitting somebody's boat and/or breaking out a canoe paddle. With the exception of a wind surfer, I had never seen a sailboat with a reverse gear before. He could head right for something, then throw it in reverse, back away and bolt off in a new direction under perfect control." Ssshh. Don't mention the 24' elephant in the room. The boat that demonstrates why ocean miles by a skilled crew sailing safely does not mean the boat type is suitable for anyone else to cruise in, or for racing. Quite the opposite, in fact.
  15. Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

    Bows and sterns have fixed roles if the hull is wide, length constrained, needs to support a forebeam/tramp/berth in the forepeak or steps up the stern for boarding. A broad stern is similar to cutting off an extended stern once the boat is going fast enough to not have turbulence, but has less affect on pitching. Otherwise, they are fairly interchangable. They have benefits. Apart from shunting in big seas/man overboard, the likelihood of getting pooped and the cockpit (and saloon in many designs) filling with water are much lower. It is far easier to deploy and retrieve a parachute anchor over the rear beam than it is from the bows and there is a vastly lower possibility of screwing up the line leads. On most cats, parachutes are seen as a last line of defence as they are so difficult to deploy, but sitting comfortably and safely on a huge, shallow raft tethered to a parachute is safer and far more pleasant than trying to sail in a gale. Double ended boats are also much easier to sail off their anchor. Agree about the T foils, although keeping the boat light enough and the foils clean and safe from impact damage are strikes against them for cruisers. DDW, "Informative" and often amusing, but in my experience, the loud mouths on the forums are a minute percentage of the overall numbers. Both mono and multi sailors appreciate the benefits and the layout, but get hung up on the athwartships assymetry, even while admitting it works well. You will find that if you take out the criticism of Denney, there are few sensible comments about why harryproas won't work the way they do. For that matter, if you take out the Denney criticisms that are from other proa designers and wannabe designers, there is not much left. I agree about your cliff theories, not about risk aversion. The early harrys were thrashed around Perth and Fremantle, site of the windy America's Cup in 1987. I broke a lot of them finding the limits. The ones that have been built for/by other people have stood the test of time. An overloaded 40'ter http://harryproa.com/?p=119#more-119 crossed the Tasman Sea including sitting out a 45 knot gale. They broke a ring frame which should have been a bulkhead, but otherwise was fine. http://harryproa.com/?p=119#more-119 A 25'ter cruised 1,000 miles of the pretty nasty West Australian coast, some of them have been raced enough to show they perform as expected given their weight, length sail area and rig type. All as expected. Where they are different is in their layout, their light weight/low cost for their length/accommodation and the way they are sailed. All except one of the larger ones (owner died shortly after launching) are still with their original owners. Structurally, harryproas are simpler and lighter than cats and tris, so there is no reason why they should fall apart any easier. An aside. If you were to put the same effort, imagination and money into a multihull to replace your mono, what would it be like? Overlay, The dissing was done by Russ and his mates in Wooden Boat and Cruising World magazines, and recently on Facebook. I drew attention to it, and designed a boat without the drawbacks they described and got vilified for doing so. Read what you like from Callaghan's attempt to rewrite his article, but read the original first. PM me and I will send it. My business model is based on providing low cost solutions to what the client requires. For cruisers, these are harryproas, but on the books at the moment are a power cat for river and trans ocean use, a charter proa for 20 people, a catamaran solar powered ferry, a 12m catamaran which is rightable by the crew and a sailing ferry/cargo carrier for use in out of the way places. Russ, his fan club and his proas faded into insignificance about 10 years ago. Now, as then, they/you provide an opportunity to talk about harryproas, not much else. Panoramix, Sorry. The questions asked were the same as have been asked dozens of times before. And answered. Answering them again is tedious for me and the readers which is why I suggested the search in my 3rd paragraph. The ocean crossing and race answers are in my response to DDW. The Bucket List question is in the link in my last post. Anything else you think I have not answered sufficiently, let me know.