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About harryproa

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  1. harryproa

    Cat tails from over the horizon

    Gerald, Sent you a pm. rob
  2. harryproa

    Project Proa For Sale

    from the other thread This is the first commercially built harryproa, built by Mark Stephens in Aus and exported to Maine. A disaster by us as we quoted for a work boat finish, then decided to make it showroom so did not get it painted by the time it had to go on the ship. The hulls are strip planked cedar, the beams, rudders and boom are timber and carbon, the mast vac bagged carbon, all built to a high standard. Check any areas where there has been standing water, but it should be fine. I think the trailerwas locally built. Not sure if the sails were built here, but if they were Pierre Gal was the sailmaker. Other sails from him have been fine. The windward hull has a throughway as the boat was going to double as a water taxi, with access from the windward side and a 50 hp outboard. The cut out is well beefed up, could be left as is or covered in. No idea if the outboard was ever bought. The lee hull is 40', not 60. I can't remember the other dimensions, but they will be close to those at HARRY – HARRYPROA. If anyone has any harryproa related questions, please contact me, either here or on harryproa@gmail.com Other information is at HARRYPROA
  3. harryproa

    NZ Shorthanded Series

    And one of them is Harmony. Assuming it is the same boat (does anybody here know?), I owned it 47 years ago! Had more fun on it than almost any boat since.
  4. harryproa

    Kleen Breeze

    Yes. Email me at harryproa@gmail.com and I can put you in touch.
  5. Not so. Use scored foam or light cfm to spread the resin and all you need is peel ply, vac bag and tacky tape, the same as vac bagging, but without the bleeder full of resin that you end up with in a vac bag job. On a flat table, brown tape the bag edges and you don't need the tacky tape. Use multiple inlets and leap frog the resin feed and there is less than a cup of waste resin. In terms of plastic generated, infusion uses about half the weight of resin that hand laminating does, so you have a kg or so of bag to throw away, but save 10's of kgs of resin. A no brainer in terms of environment, cost and weight.
  6. harryproa

    Cat tails from over the horizon

    I was selling boat building materials in the 70s/80s during the Aus boom in home built boats. Experienced pretty much all methods except ferro cement and steel. Then built a bunch of ply and strip planked hulls while developing harryproas. Cedar strip was by far the most popular; quicker and easier than double diagonal, better looking, lighter and quicker than ply, way cheaper and easier than foam, especially if the foam was vacuumed, which it should be to maximise the glass/foam bond and minimise the resin. This all changed when we asked Derek Kelsall to do a couple of KSS workshops. A dozen of us attended, 3 of them were long time cedar strip professional builders. Everybody was blown away. To produce a gel coated, 15m/50' long, 2m/6.6' wide panel for a half hull in a day of non messy work was an eye opener. Less impressed the following day when it had to be cut, glassed and faired to get the below water shape, but still a huge improvement over conventional methods. The rest of the boat used conventional techniques. We built on this system and came up with Intelligent Infusion, which puts almost everything (rebates, joins, doublers, solids, reinforcing, bulkhead landings, stringers, ring frames, rudder, mast and beam holes and beefing up) on the table or in cheap moulds before resin is mixed. Each component is perfectly wet out in about an hour, no one gets sticky, waste is minimised, resin fibre ratios of about half what hand laminating achieves. The components are then glued together. No cutting or grinding of cured laminate, no secondary glassing, minimal bogging and fairing. Same for the interior, including bulkheads with doors so the fit is perfect, with no edge finishing required. A hand laid foam/glass boat will be theoretically lighter than a cedar one, but experience showed there was little difference. A vac bagged or infused foam/glass hull will be lighter, if the foam is perfectly cut and heated to conform to the hull. This is fussy work on hulls with compound curvature, simple on flat panels. A production foam/glass boat will almost always be heavier as the foam will be double cut which takes a lot of resin or bog to fill and the laminators are not always as careful as home builders. An infused hull these days will be considerably cheaper than a strip planked one, at least in Australia. The C60 harryproa has a laminate of 1200 glass/30mm H80 foam/600 glass. The glass costs $US3.000 per kg/$1.40 per lb, the foam $US30 per sq m/$2.80 per sq' and the infusion epoxy $US per kg/$4.50 per lb. Plus another ~$US1.00 for the infusion materials (peel ply, bag, spiral). About $47 per sq m. Not sure the current cost of cedar, but we switched to paulonia which was lighter, cheaper, less toxic and more rot proof. Rough sawn, 25mm thick is $AUS75/$US53 per sq m. Plus glass, filling and fairing. If you are serious about buying a performance cat, I suggest you duck over to Brisbane while you are in NZ as there is a wider variety and more of them. Aluminium on a cruising boat is the same as rigging and non kick up rudders and daggerboards. Accidents looking for a place to happen.
  7. harryproa

    Catamaran Capsize Kills 3 off Newcastle

    It was a cat, not a proa. Harryproas don't invert (buoyant mast on the always to leeward hull, (see http://harryproa.com/?p=1751 under "Safe"). In fact, they are potentially self righting. (Feb 2018 http://harryproa.com/?p=424 If there was any current (North Atlantic drift) it was in the same direction as the wind and waves and would not have made any difference. The effect was purely from the waves. Rocking may have contributed, but mostly it was from the cyclic motion of the water in the waves. The water in the top of the wave moves in the direction of the wave (Bethwaite, High Performance Sailing, P148 explains why). The water in the bottom of the wave moves in the opposite direction. The distance between these is the height of the wave. The waves were ~3m/10' high, so the top of the wave moved the hulls in the direction of the wave. The water 3m/10' below the surface moved in the opposite direction. The boat floated with the tramps just awash, the boom was about 600mm/2' off the deck/below the water. Windage contributed little or nothing. Between waves, the tether went slack enough for the liferaft to rotate (probably due to the door being open). A wave would pass under the boat, it would surge forward, the tether would tighten, the liferaft spin rapidly and we would be another 10m closer to America. I experienced the same effect on a mono in a Syd Hobart. Trimming the chute standing on the deck, light wind and left over swell. The top of the swell would push the hull to leeward, the boat would heel, the sheet go slack and if I didn't hang on I would go overboard. A weird feeling. Both only happen if the boat is ~parallel to the waves, which they were.
  8. harryproa

    Catamaran Capsize Kills 3 off Newcastle

    Could not agree more, and in those circumstances would expect the boat to move with the current. If the wind and windage were high enough, perhaps there would be enough drift to cause it to sail, but I doubt it. Pretty immaterial as I wrote: Each time a wave passed the cat it would take off and pull the tether tight. and In my experience, the upside down boat sails forward at a respectable speed as a wave passes under it and the sails are acted on by the moving water. If they were reaching, the boards should have been mostly up. However, if they were hard on the wind, in waves and under seriously reduced sail (or pinching under too much sail), then both boards down would help. eg, to get back to a man overboard lost while deep reaching/running. This may have been why 2 of the crew were found away from the boat.
  9. harryproa

    Catamaran Capsize Kills 3 off Newcastle

    Much of the prep should be done during the design. The rest before the boat is launched and then checked each time it is sailed, not just when things go pear shaped. Right Side Up works on big budget boats where electronic systems are maintained and the crew know how to use them. A manual system operated by a wand on the windward hull stern is more reliable, much cheaper and can be rigged to work regardless of whether the sheet is on a winch, a cleat or wrapped round the crew's ankle. Unfortunately, neither system is likely to work if the boat is on a reach with the main near the swept back shrouds prevalent on most multis. One of many reasons for having an unstayed mast. A drogue would not be much use at the 1-2 knots the boat travels. Better would be a floating line(s) that could be grabbed and used to pull the crew back to the boat and onto the bridgedeck. We left the bridgedeck as the wind chill was bloody cold and sat in the liferaft tethered to the upside down cat. The motion was diabolical. Each time a wave passed the cat it would take off and pull the tether tight. The tether would jerk and the liferaft would spin. I ended up holding onto the line as a shock absorber. Gave me something to think about for 6 hours apart from my crew throwing up every few minutes, the dead battery on the hired EPIRB and how I was going to pay back the money I had borrowed to build the boat. The Orion that found us took a photo showing the cat at right angles to the wind and waves and the liferaft tether out the back parallel to the hulls. The photo is on p 106 of "Ostar" by Lloyd Foster. In big seas, I suspect it would be hard for someone in full wet weather gear to hold on during the surges. Nothing to do with windage, everything to do with the water on the sails on the intact rig. On an upside down mono this would translate into heeling rather than propulsion, I think.
  10. harryproa

    Catamaran Capsize Kills 3 off Newcastle

    In my experience, the upside down boat sails forward at a respectable speed as a wave passes under it and the sails are acted on by the moving water. In the North Atlantic, with F6-7 wind generated sea, I could not swim fast enough, even if I had not been wearing wet weather gear. This makes it difficult/impossible to access the front of the boat from the water. It also makes access to the rear difficult unless there are lines to grab or handholds under the aft deck. Swimming out from under the cockpit and not grabbing a line en route can easily result in watching the boat "sail" away. Even then, getting onto the partly submerged bridgedeck is no easy task unless someone is already there to help. The offshore safety rules for multihulls are the minimum that cruiser owners, builders and designers should apply. These include safety lines under the flouro painted bridge deck and access hatches into and out of the hulls from the bridge deck.
  11. harryproa

    Over the horizon

    I was responding to Max and Zonker. You may have heard, but you most certainly don't "get it". I also want (and have) daggerboards, which kick up. This is not odd. Odd is unnecessarily damaging your boat or crew when you hit something.
  12. harryproa

    Over the horizon

    No problem then. Use fixed daggers and rudders and don't sail where there might be whales. ;-) Do you think a whale has more stopping power than a big log, a barely afloat container or a coral reef? Agreed. However, it will probably be followed by another bang and slow down as the saildrive is taken out and another when the rudder goes. Followed by a loud gurgling noise. The stopping I am referring to is when the dagger or the case doesn't break. The boat has no choice except to stop. Instead of the worry and the repair bill, why not fit kick up boards and rudders?
  13. harryproa

    Over the horizon

    True. This was meant to relate to the forces on the daggerboard, etc which are related to the boat mass. Sorry for the confusion.
  14. Pil, I tried to send you a pm, got the message PIL66 - XL2 cannot receive messages. Could you email me at harryproa@gmail.com please. regards, rob
  15. harryproa

    Over the horizon

    While I’ve only seen 15 (I sail conservatively), I have had my dagger boat for six years and a few thousands miles, she’s 27 years old, so far so good. You got stats on your assertion? Which assertion? That it is a death wish to cruise at 20 knots in a 10 tonne boat and not expect serious damage to the crew when the dagger hits something immovable and a) the board or boat doesn't break, in which case it comes to a complete halt, with 6-7 times more mass than the 1.5 tonne car in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ-xOplVUyc Or that fixing the crashed board requires the boat to be slipped to fix the damaged case. Check out Soma's photo on the Gunboat 68 thread and see if you could fix it afloat. Or that fixed daggers are lunacy when it is easy to make the boards and rudders kick up? None of those require statistics, they are self evident, so I presume you are referring to the odds of hitting something? I don't have statistics, but there are plenty of indicators that the risk exists, and is becoming more likely: Hugo Boss, Spindrift, Vestus and other boats that run aground, Gunboat publicity guy saying 'not if but when you hit something", 1,400 containers per year falling off ships, whale population growing, kick up rudders on Open 40's and IMOCA's, etc). But if you need statistics, you have missed the point. Why risk it at all, when it is cheaper, lighter and easier to fit kick ups? You could visualise/simulate the deceleration by sailing at 15 knots and throwing your storm anchor over the back. Then double it to get from 15 to 20 (225:400 as it is a speed squared equation). Or sprint as fast as you can run into a bulkhead, window or shroud. Then you just need to decide whether you would rather the boat stopped and any crew not strapped in continued at 20 knots or whether you would rather have everything below the waterline ripped out. Or do what lots of sailors do. Sail cautiously, worry a lot and hope it never happens. And when it does, put it down to bad luck, rebuild it exactly the same and repeat.