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About harryproa

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  1. harryproa

    CrazyProa. The flame suit is on.

    Locking the front rudder post shunt is a mistake. You either need to lift it or steer it. End rudders need to be extremely robust, quarter rudders much less so. See www.harryproa.com for solutions that work and the archives of the yahoo harryproa forum for 20+ years of experiments that lead to these solutions.
  2. harryproa

    Stolen Boat. Culatra, Portugal

    Glad you like the boat. Robin, not Richard. As far as I know, his body has not been recovered. What happened is still a mystery.
  3. harryproa

    Stolen Boat. Culatra, Portugal

    "broke" because there is a little more to the story than I posted. ;-) Asking price is $US120,000 or best offer. The seller is the deceased builder's family. They know nothing about boats and care less, just want to get rid of it and get what they can. The $200K worth of inventory includes Zodiac Cadet 340 RIB, 48Volt 160Ah Super B Lithium Batteries x 10, 2 x Kräutler Electric pod motor, Victron Quattro inverter Fischer Panda 5000i gen set, Sunpower Solar panels x 8, etc etc.
  4. harryproa

    Stolen Boat. Culatra, Portugal

    Thanks Sail4Beer, look forward to taking you for a sail sometime. Apparently the boat "broke" 2 anchor chains, drifted into another boat which then took it in tow to a marina across the border in Spain, from where it has now been returned to it's rightful owners. On the bright side, the authorities have now cleared it for sale under it's British Registration. $US120,000. https://us14.campaign-archive.com/?u=8bd3efb7a8899110315782e1e&id=72a38a4480 I have asked them to update this to include the $200,000 inventory and some other details.
  5. The 20m/66' harryproa Kleen Breeze has been reported as missing from the anchorage at Culatra, South Portugal. A diver has recovered her anchor. Apparently the chain had been cut. The case has been reported to the Maritime Police. The owner has asked me to publicise this in case the boat is seen somewhere in Portugal, Spain or Morocco? Anyone with any information, please contact me at harryproa@gmail.com Thanks Rob Denney
  6. harryproa

    Bidirectional leeboard design for shunting?

    Tom's site is http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSections/ProaIndex.html There are some harryproa owners who have also developed their own. You can discuss these on the yahoo harryproa chat group. I have used both Tom's section and an ogive. The ogive worked ok as a foil, not so good as a rudder. Here is a 300mm chord 40 grit finish version on a kite boat lifting about 150 kgs at about 12 knots. Any details of your boat?
  7. harryproa

    How fast does a turtled trimaran drift?

    We capsized a lightweight 10.5m cat in the Atlantic in a F7. The waves were moderate and not breaking but it was cold enough to get in the liferaft rather than sit on the upside down boat. As each wave passed under the boat it would move sideways and the uncleated (but possibly jammed) sails would push it forwards. Speed was fast enough to jerk the liferaft tether which I had to hold as a spring. Progress across the wind was pretty quick. There is a photo from the rescue plane which shows the liferaft lying at about 20 degrees to lee of the boat, which was lying across the waves. Based on this, I would be looking in the direction the boat was pointing when you left it, plus/minus the current. Wave induced speed of maybe 1 knot (depending on the waves, boat weight, sails, etc). good luck
  8. harryproa

    Kleen Breeze

    For the third time: There are a couple of shunts in the video mentioned above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s At 13.00 minutes it shows an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on. The longer ones are not pretty, (impaired, first time crew) but do show some of the advantages of shunting. ie you can take as long as you like, reverse it at at any time, does not require much crew coordination and does not run the risk of getting in irons (upwind) or surfing down waves with the boom slamming across and possible broaching (downwind in decent breeze). Nor are there any potential "zone of death" issues during bear aways, although this is a function of the unstayed rig rather than the proa format. Let me know what you think.
  9. harryproa

    Kleen Breeze

    Nothing from a drone, sorry. Not that there would be much to see. The boom(s) swing from one end to the other, the boat takes off in the opposite direction, while luffing up onto the new course. Same as a twin tip kite board. There is an animation at http://harryproa.com/?p=1910 On the earlier boats, the rudders rotated through 180 degrees as well as the rig. These days we are using Tom Speer's proa sections http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSections/ProaIndex.html which work in both directions. Consequently, the rudders only rotate 20-30 degrees during a shunt. As the rudders are fore and aft the boat luffs far quicker than a conventional multi. On the schooner rigs, this is helped by trimming the aft sail first during a tack shunt and the fore sail first for a gybe shunt. There are a couple of shunts in the video mentioned above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s At 13.00 minutes it shows an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on. The longer ones are not pretty, (impaired, first time crew) but do show some of the advantages of shunting. ie you can take as long as you like, reverse it at at any time, does not require much crew coordination and does not run the risk of getting in irons (upwind) or surfing down waves with the boom slamming across and possible broaching (downwind in decent breeze). Nor are there any potential "zone of death" issues during bear aways, although this is a function of the unstayed rig rather than the proa format. Hope this helps.
  10. harryproa

    Kleen Breeze

    Solarbri, Hope it works out. Sailplane, Not sure what you mean by "meaningful". Harryproas are safer, easier to build and sail, faster and cost less than cats and tris. The following videos etc give meaning to these claims. A 3.5 ton $350,000, 50' cruiser sailing effortlessly at wind speed with no extras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA&t=254s in 10 and 15 knots of breeze under main and jib. It also shows the spray and drag from the first generation bows and rudder mounts. Both are much cleaner on the latest versions, eg http://harryproa.com/?p=1747 none of which are sailing yet. Kleen Breeze sailing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFDforLxBY&t=4s . Not much breeze, but there is a description of sailing in 25 knots at http://harryproa.com/?p=562. 20 minutes of hands off steering without an autopilot is more meaningful than most multis. Gps track and footage of a home built and modified 60'ter, https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1fsxnaYi-PM sailing at 17 knots (1 minute average) in 18-20 breeze, also with no extras. An explanation of how and why at http://harryproa.com/?p=129 and https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info Look for posts by Rick Willoughby. The first 50 launched being sailed and shunted by a group of sight impaired first time sailors in Holland, something it has been doing for 10 years. At 13.00 minutes it shows an 8 second shunt in 20 knots and a couple of longer ones earlier on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftyqI2aJlo&t=3s Also with first gen rudders and bows. A home built 25'ter being comfortably cruised up and down the rugged, windy West Australian coast, solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP2cYwi-f2I A step on the way to a foiling version https://vimeo.com/252480285 and a crude self righting model https://vimeo.com/257852827 A folding harry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVNGXqGPtE in New Zealand. No video, but a description of an overloaded 40'ter with neophyte crew weathering a 45 knot gale while crossing from Australia to New Zealand at http://harryproa.com/?p=1759 There are a bunch of build photos, costings, explanations and other boats at www.harryproa.com and a pretty comprehensive list of all the failures, screw ups, ideas and thinking that lead us to where we are now at https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info If that is not enough, ask me specific questions and I will do my best to answer them.
  11. harryproa

    R2AK 2018

    I don't think you are being harsh, just selective. There are a couple of dozen videos of harrys sailing and steering perfectly well in a variety of conditions. None of the harryproas i have sailed on have had this problem. Nor have any that you or Sidecar have sailed on. ;-) If it did happen, it would be a pretty easy fix, either by adding more jib/removing mainsail, recutting the main to provide a more open leech, or short term, bending the mast to do so. A topping lift is a very powerful control on an unstayed mast if you want to fiddle with the power and balance. Worst case, simply lift the front rudder until the boat balances. Blind Date (the first cruising harry launched) still has positive sail balance with a reef in the main, so there is scope for a bigger jib. The latest harrys are schooner rigs (to better use the lee hull space), so it is even less of a problem. A 'good system for steering proas' works in both directions and kicks up when it hits something. One that doesn't might look better, but is more dangerous, and in a race like R2AK, slower if you do not sail at night because you are worried about hitting logs with fixed rudders and daggerboards. How many times did the boats with "good systems for steering proas" run aground or into a log at 15+ knots? What did/would the rudders, daggerboard and cases look like afterwards? Rick is not only a pedal (and hydro, VPP, electric motor and several other disciplines) authority, he has spent a lot of time on and made some changes to a home built and designed harryproa. You can read his thoughts on them at http://harryproa.com/?p=129 and http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/ I did not introduce harryproas to this thread, only clarified what others said about them. Now you are moaning about thread drift while demanding (for the umpteenth time) I explain about harryproas offshore performance. For anyone interested, one of the many times I responded to this nonsense is in post 141 on the Multihulls Anarchy Gitana foiling thread. As for "making war", this was post #404 on the M A Caribbean 600 thread, about Russ' incessant trolling: "FFS (Russell) ... why don’t you start a fucking thread titled “Old School Sailing Gear-open discussion. Everyone except Rob Denney may participate”. That should help you feel better. Or maybe a thread titled, 'I can’t fucking stand Rob Denney-who’s with me? Because, lord knows, it would be terrible to have discussions, theories, ideas, etc, thrown out there about multihull capsizes, the why’s, the what’s, and the what if’s, in a thread about a race where a notorious Catamaran flipped. " end quote People who want to know why Russ trolls me can read chapter 45 of Gary Baigent's (Groucho Marx on these forums) excellent book http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Yacht/LightBrigade.pdf It takes arrogance to tell people where or what they should post. It takes a lot more to boast about doing things you are "not proud of".
  12. harryproa

    R2AK 2018

    The rudders on Blind Date in Rick's photo were designed and built by her ex paid skipper, with little or no input from harryproa. They are, by design, much stronger and heavier than they need to be. A big part of their bulk comes from the need to kick up in either direction in the event of a grounding, which is common where they sail in Holland and would appear to be a no brainer in the R2AK. Two large rudders at about 25% and 75% of the length and no daggerboards works well on all the harrys that have them, for less drag, complexity and cost than smaller rudders and daggerboards Attaching them is difficult, but everyone we do is lighter and more streamlined than the previous one. Daggerboard in the windward hull and small rudders set in from the ends of the boat would appear to be the worst of both world's. I look forward to hearing how they work.. What were the conditions when Sidecar sailed best with the front rudder? We have been doing (and talking about) this on harrys for at least 10 years. It is the obvious way to steer upwind. Hardly novel or not "obvious" . Bucket List steered/steers perfectly well in the limited sailing we did before fitting the foils. Please stop commenting about it as if you had sailed, seen or knew anything about it, when you haven't, haven't and don't.
  13. harryproa

    Caribbean 600

    Paraphrasing Post #461 "Wow, I couldn't have said it better, the science and real life experience is good and I couldn't agree more. I like unstayed masts, they just make sense on multihulls (and monhulls) if you want fast, low cost, low maintenance, easy sailing." Too true, but it does not need to be complex, nor does it need a big budget. I built the 3 x 6m/20' tubes for the unstayed rig on Bucket List for less than 2 grand's worth of materials and 40m of 4mm dyneema. Will get back to it when the more interesting jobs (sailing cargo proas, electric ferries and foiling) are done. Dcn An unstayed mast is a lever sticking out the top of the hull; a keel is a lever sticking out the bottom. When the boat is heeled to 90 degrees, both see similar loads, yet no one puts stays on keels. Canting keels are an even better example. A couple of stays and you could eliminate most of the mounting, the hydraulic controls and the engine and fuel required to operate it. None of the mega budget projects do so. I am pretty sure this is for the same reasons stayed masts don't make sense: Drag and complexity. Sidecar, Boat looks nice, sorry to hear about your ill health and finances. Spending time making experimental boats look nice is pretty pointless as i) the dust and chemicals are expensive and bad for you ii) the time and money is better spent sailing and trying stuff and iii) having done all that work, there is a reluctance to change something that isn't working. I agree with HeB that your mast section looks too light to be supporting the compression loads of two loose luffed sails, regardless of what Skene says. Based on your weights for unstayed proa masts, which are heavier than comparable ones we have designed and built, I also agree with DDW about your engineering. Could you please stop talking about Bucket List as though you know about it. You have neither seen nor sailed it and your understanding of how it works and why it was designed appears to be non existent. Your theories about it's Base Speed are, as i said when you posted them, flawed.
  14. harryproa

    Brisbane to Gladstone 2018 only

    If the shafts were engineered correctly, it would not make any difference what they were made of. I suspect the problem was laying up carbon over a mandrel. This works well if the fibres are wrapped tightly(ie, filament wrapped with a lot of drag on the winder). If they aren't and pressure is then applied (via vac bag or heat shrink tape), the fibres that are not running lengthwise are forced to conform to a smaller radius and kink. For masts, this is not a huge deal as they are not loaded in torsion. For rudders, not so much. The best way to make rudder shafts is in a one piece mould with a pressure bladder at high pressure. We usually use 6 atmospheres. This is high pressure, make sure the fastenings are up to it, and leave the room while the pressure is being applied. I had 20 cast iron G clamps on a 2m rudder section and when it got to pressure, one broke, with the rest following in rapid succession. Bits of clamp flying around the workshop was not pretty.
  15. harryproa

    Caribbean 600

    Given the amount of time, effort and money that has gone into perfecting stayed rigs, it is remarkable that unstayed ones are anywhere near them in performance. Unstayed rigs will be way ahead when we think outside the box and use their potential instead of playing by stayed rig solutions and rules. A place to start is telescoping masts. In the light, the sail area is up high where there is far more wind. Reefing lowers the windage and the weight so is not the negative it is on conventional rigs. The top mast can be very light as it is only used in light air, then lowered inside the next section. Reefing/unreefing on any point of sail without having to drag the sail down against the stays enables area changes to be done quickly. The sail shape is fixed and cut to suit the mast. Instead of controlling the shape with highly loaded controls (cunningham, sheet, outhaul and rig tension) the fixed shape sail is simply extended or reduced. Sail cloth is lighter and does not need to be high tech, battens are pre bent and rotate. Sail trim becomes: Are we flying a hull? No; extend the rig. Yes; think about reducing it. Another area where unstayed has advantages is the ability to eliminate tracks and cars by tieing the sail to the mast. This saves the weight and cost of tracks and cars in an area where weight is important, eliminates the lee side bubble and requires less sail shaping. A short flap on the opposite side to the sail to fair the windward side as well, allows a bigger diameter, lighter and stiffer mast while using far less sail cloth and battens than double sided sails. The result is similar to camber inducers and sock sails on moths and windsurfers, but without the hassle and limitations (hoisting/lowering). A telescoping rig with a faired leading edge provides more sail, upwind and down, at lower overall weight and windage than a sloop rig. And when the breeze increases, that area, weight and windage is easily reduced, along with the mast height. Merloe has a 30m high mast, carries 300 sq m upwind, 450 down and weighs 6.5 tons. If the mast was 30% back from the bows and 70% of the mast was extended the sail area would be 51m (luff) x 15m (boom length plus bowsprit length, but at the stern) x .8 (roach) = 611 sq m, more than twice as much upwind. The boat would be lighter overall, and could be sailed by 3 instead of 6 people with less deck gear and loads. If the mast was in 4 sections, the rig height and weight of the fully reefed mast would be about 12m. Less than half as high, with much less windage than the reefed stayed rig. The weight in the bow and a 15m boom might be a challenge on a boat designed for a stayed rig, in which case, two masts would be more managable. If "the name of the game is to carry as much sail area, with as much luff length as possible", there are better, cheaper, more reliable and easier ways to achieve it than stayed sloop rigs. The latest version has the sheave on the rotating arm. When it rotates, the sheet falls off and straightens out under the bridgedeck, so no snubber required. Sorry. .-) DDW, Thanks for the history lesson. Good to know harryproas have another 80 years or so to get popular. ;-) Solarbri, Thanks.