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About harryproa

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  1. harryproa

    Infusing flax

    It absorbs more resin than glass, the flax is thicker for the same weight so the same weight of laminate is about 50% thicker and heavier. However, the stiffness is greater due to the thickness and stiffness is what I want as I am trying to eliminate core. Similar thickness glass would be about the same weight and much stronger. It is nicer to use than glass and not itchy when ground. The stuff i am using is woven, the cut edges stay together better than knitted glass and it is more stable. The samples are being tested by the local University, the results of this and other tests and boat building progress will be posted daily when there is something to report on the harryproa Yahoo chat group and weekly(ish) on Cargo Ferry Prototype – HARRYPROA http://harryproa.com/?p=3788
  2. harryproa

    Proa 21

    Glad you like the boats. I should have added "different" to 'good, bad and ugly" so that I could include the length issue. Additional length, without additional pay load, beam or sail area costs and weighs very little on a proa and results in more speed, comfort and safety with the downsides of slightly slower in light air, harder to trailer, higher marina costs and build space. Consequently, a 28' proa with accommodation will be relatively slow. Your Harryproa options are a stretched 7.5m/25' E25 with either a couple of cramped bunks in the windward hull or a 12m/40' EX40 which will weigh/cost less than the tris. http://harryproa.com/?p=2820 and http://harryproa.com/?p=994 The materials for the stretched E25 and roll/drum/carton buying prices in $US (ex your local tax and duty) are: 5mm H80 foam: 9 sqm @$8.50/sq m = $80 10mm H80 foam: 36 sqm @$13/sqm = $470 400 double bias glass: 38 kgs @ $2.20/kg = $85 400 uni: 4 kgs @ $2/kg = $8 carbon tow 1 kg @ $20 = $20 300 uni carbon: 30 kgs @ 27 = $810 Epoxy Infusion Resin: 60 kgs @ $7.50/kg = $450 180 sqm roll peel ply: 100 sqm @ $0.70 = $70 200 sq m roll Vac bag @ $0.50/ sq m = $100 Composite materials: $2,093, plus ~10% for shipping, depending on quantities. This does not include wastage (5-15% depending on your attitude), deck gear (6 x 4:1 purchase block and tackles), 50m of 6-10mm rope (sheets, halyards, outhaul, downhauls), sails/tramp, paint, sandpaper, thinners etc, which are all matters of personal preference. Nor does it include overheads, motor, anchor and safety gear, plans ($680), vac pump and plumbing ($150) or half a dozen sheets of mdf for the moulds and table. It's an excellent chance of beating the record but unlikely to total less than 10,000 Euros and without the accommodation you want. To get that in a 28'ter, you will be buying the Farrier or the Dragonfly or a proa from someone else. Or build the Ex40 for ~3 times the extended E25 composite materials cost, plus wastage, etc. Overselling? Please let me know where and what I have written that is 'over sold'. Raz'r, Almost correct. There are a couple of upwind to upwind shunting videos, but they are pretty inept (beginner crew or poorly set up boats). Those who have thought about it have figured out that shunting from hard on the wind to hard on the wind is not appreciably different from reach to reach, which is the standard video fare and that downwind to downwind is slower (but safer and less stressful) than gybing. It's a similar story with tacking angles. There are a couple of gps tracks showing the expected, that upwind performance isn't appreciably different to a similar weight/windage/sail area cat, for obvious reasons. Happy to discuss this if you could explain why they wouldn't be? Regardless, I will take some videos of both next time I go sailing. Don't hold your breath, it won't be for a few months. The comedians, It is a pleasant change to read your (pretty awful) puns rather than the personal abuse I used to cop on similar threads.
  3. harryproa

    Bi plane rigged wing mast cat pros and cons?

    Ask away. I appreciate the opportunity to correct gossip and hearsay. I got a brief email from the owner saying a knot in the vectran line keeping the hulls together had let go while the boat was sailing in a brisk breeze. I presume the boat capsized when the hulls pantographed. They got a tow ashore, put it on the trailer, reassembled it and continued sailing. I don't remember hearing any more about it, so presume this was a pretty good description of events. If you have any photos of the 'little pieces washing ashore", please post them and I will contact the owner for verification.
  4. harryproa

    Bi plane rigged wing mast cat pros and cons?

    Thanks AAS. To be clear, Jasmin was drawn by Tim Clissold, based on W, which is the boat that I designed and built. W had a telescoping single beam which was free to pitch (unrestrained) and yaw (restrained), a daggerboard mounted on the beam, single rudder and rig in the same hull and a cabin in the other hull. It was 12m/40' long, 7.5m/25' wide and weighed 650 kgs/1,500 lbs. Hulls were vac bagged foam glass, the rest was carbon. One half of the telescoping beam was a truss built from the 19mm carbon rod battens from the Whitbread 60 Tokio which we swapped for a paint job. The connections between the horizontals and diagonals were cured in a second hand hospital autoclave. The other half was a 300mm/12" dia tube with a 90 degree elbow, a challenging bit of laminating. The most interesting part of the build was the unstayed mast. Prepreg carbon in a 6mm wall steel mould bolted together with 160 x 8mm bolts. The first inflation broke the bag, had to undo all the bolts, patch the bag and do them all up again. Heated it with an internal element to 103C and turned the compressor to max (6.5 atms/105psi) and stood well back. Excess resin poured out of the mould and coated the bolts. Had to shear most of them off. The end result was very stiff (partly as it was way over engineered) that rang like a bell when tapped. Fun times.
  5. harryproa

    Infusing flax

    I have been given a couple of rolls of flax cloth. Before using them on the boat I infused a couple of stacks of flax and fibreglass. Same weight of cloth, but the flax was a little thicker. The infusion filled both stacks at the same time. After half an hour, the flax side was about 2 degrees C warmer (21C vs 19C), which climbed to 22/24C by the end of the infusion when I put a heat blanket over the job to cure it. Any suggestions/experience as to what caused it?
  6. harryproa

    Proa 21

    Good. What you said, the most boat for the least money and consequently potentially the fastest multis as they are lightest for their length. I would say 'potentially' simple. Paddle or weight shift steering on small proas, unstayed rigs and/or flat cut sails and easy to build hull shapes are simple. Some of the solutions out there, not so much. Capable is also a potential. Some proas have low righting moment. This is not a problem with a fit and agile crew on a beach cat sized boat, but gets messy on bigger ones when you need to cart equipment back and forth or pump water ballast as the breeze increases. Capability also takes a whack in a stiff breeze if the rig can be caught aback or accidentally tacks or gybes and catches on the shrouds. Result is any/all of: panic dropping of the sails, uncontrolled sailing, capsize the wrong way or the rig falling down. Does not happen often, but once is enough. Rudders and daggerboards that don't kick up are a disaster waiting to happen. But this applies to many multis, not just proas. Bad. Shunting is slower than tacking, much slower than gybing. A rig that shunts without raising/lowering sails and rudders speeds things up considerably. On the bright side, shunting in strong wind/big seas is easier and safer than gybing and tacking. Ugly: To people who like boats to look the same and/or be symmetric fore and aft, proas are ugly. Recommendations? Need to know how big, how expensive, payload, racing or cruising and any other requirements. Useful information: www. harryroa.com particularly the About section http://www.pacificproa.com/links.html Less useful information: Most forum threads on the subject after the first few posts. To understand the history of the discord, read chapter 45 of https://www.coolmobility.com.au/Yacht/LightBrigade.pdf Actually, read the whole thing, it is a fascinating book if you are into fast, light, innovative boats. The author posts here as Groucho Marx. Background: I have been designing, building and sailing proas for 20+ years. I have recently returned from a couple of months in the Marshall Islands teaching the locals to build Harryproas (see video) to replace expensive outboard powered skiffs. Current project is building a prototype 24m/80' version for use as a zero emissions cargo carrier for remote Pacific villages. http://harryproa.com/?p=2561
  7. harryproa

    Bi plane rigged wing mast cat pros and cons?

    Freestanding in the middle of a cat can be "a difficult problem", but a free standing single mast rig on a cat is just as simple as on a tri. Place it in one of the hulls. I designed and built a 12m/40' one of these for a kiwi guy 20 years ago. It worked well. He patented it, called it a bimaran and entered it in a Royal Institute of Naval Architects design competition and won me $10,000. He had visions of producing them, but once he could see the concept would work, he lost interest. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/marine/news/article.cfm?c_id=61&objectid=3198180
  8. harryproa

    Bi plane rigged wing mast cat pros and cons?

    It doesn't. The C-Tech mandrel cost is the same, and there is less material used to build the mast. A female mould is significantly cheaper to make as it does not need to be perfectly smooth or perfectly tapered. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 3% is a rule of thumb, not an engineering principle. It is recommended by Eric Sponberg, who is now retired, and redirects his enquiries to us. Many carbon (and alloy) spars have less than 3%, and many more have less than 3mm walls. $160 per kg is a lot when you could have built it yourself (no harder than building the rest of your boat) for $25-35 per kg, and included the tapering. Neither pure nor simple. A wing section is 5 -20% more expensive, not the "nearly double" you asserted. Oval masts are often less cost and weight than round as the fore/aft laminate is reduced. See Russ' example below, and 99% of yacht masts. Using professionally built costs for the tube, scraps to hold it up and glossing over/ignoring the extra components does not indicate a lot of research into stayed vs unstayed masts. Certainly not enough to make the claims you made about biplane rigged catamaran masts. I am happy to sell at the prices I quoted. Ditto for equally low cost foam and glass. I have a shipment en route, will be ordering again in July. Let me know what you want. HL&S ;-) The block on Russ' G32 backstay (which also holds up the mast) failed, causing the mast to fall down and the boat to capsize. If it was unstayed, it wouldn't have. Fittings failure is a common cause of mast breakage, as are incorrect setting up and lack of maintenance/inspection. None of these are a problem on an unstayed mast. Now ask me about why I mentioned silly capsizes to Pil. ;-) Unless he built a new one, the alloy mast for Russ' 36' proa (Jzerro) that he "could carry to the boat and step himself" was 36'/10.7m long and weighed 160 lb/72 kgs fully rigged. It most definitely cannot be gybed in a breeze and is no better for comparing to catamaran rigs than yours (large staying base one side, small the other). I have no idea of Jzerro's RM, but pretty sure it is less than 6,000 kgm (ie a 6m/20' wide cat weighing 2 tons/tonnes. We built a couple of unstayed 13.6m/45' masts for this RM. They weigh 65 kgs/147 lbs each, incl track, fittings and bearings. The "deck collar" is 60 x 1.2m/4' lengths of carbon tow, 72m. Wet out, it weighs 375g/14 ounces. Russ has yet to share the rig weight (incl rigging, traveller, striker, etc) of the G32 rig apart from the 31' mast weight of 30 kgs/65 lbs on a cat the same width as a Hobie 16, describing it as "much more of a wing section, that is lighter, with less rigging". The 800 lb/370 kgs G32 rm with 600 lbs/270kgs of water ballast and 2 crew to windward has about 630kgm of righting moment. The same rm for an unstayed mast also weighs about 30 kgs, but does not need all the extra rigging and equipment. Obviously your proa "can sail in both directions", but are you saying you could tack or gybe under full sail at the top of the full sail wind range and the rig would stay up? If so, please send us the video or the rigging calculations. Maybe, but at least I know there is no LM (Low Modulus) carbon. It is SM, Standard Modulus. This is about as basic as it gets for speccing carbon spars. And that "running rigging" includes halyards, sheets and other adjustment lines which your boat has in abundance. Plus the blocks and cleats to control them. This is about as basic as it gets for speccing rigging. Maybe reread http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/196530-caribbean-600/&page=5&tab=comments#comment-6175695 to remind yourself about expert opinions on your mast design qualifications. Do what you like with your rig, but if you make unqualified and/or incorrect statements about unstayed masts I will challenge them. You (and Russ and Pil) could also comment on the other advantages of unstayed masts in post 34.
  9. harryproa

    Bi plane rigged wing mast cat pros and cons?

    Rusty, Excellent points. If you do decide to proceed with a carbon mast, let me know if I can help with design, build or materials. Sidecar, Everybody knows that stayed mast tubes are lighter than unstayed. But the weight and cost to be compared should include everything that is not on the unstayed rig. ie, the stays, turnbuckles/adjusters, chainplates, winches, striker, deck gear, travellers and the beefing up these require on a catamaran. If extras are required, the list should include the extra sheets, prodders, halyard and winches. I look forward to those numbers to prove your cost and weight assertions. One of the big advantages of an unstayed carbon mast is the ability to taper and vary the laminate and the diameter along the length. To compare weights and costs of a stock tube with added laminate at the deck is less than half the story. Your unstayed tube could have been 1/3rd the diameter and weight at the tip, making your weight comparison flawed.. Another advantage is that if you make an unstayed mast longer, the weight added for each extra meter is a little more than the weight of the top metre of the original. Extending a stayed mast requires the entire mast be strengthened, plus more rigging. So, an unstayed mast can have far more area in the mainsail, for little extra weight, negating the need for extras, prodders, winches, sheets and furlers. Or, in a biplane, two large mainsails. "If you went aerofoil sections, you would nearly double the weights" is another incorrect, unsubstantiated generalisation. We do these calcs pretty regularly and prove them with built masts. The extra weight is between 5 and 20% depending on whether a fairing is added to a tube, the wing section sits on a stub mast, the bearing arrangement, whether a sheer web is included, types of core and the section. Russ' proa mast is/was alloy, yours is high modulus carbon, hence the weight difference. Neither of them are supported for sailing in both directions, so are arguably irrelevant for catamaran mast discussions. I am happy "to agree to disagree", until you post or support unsubstantiated claims and ignore rebuttals of those claims. see post 34. GM, Insufficient laminate in the chainplates would have the same effect. Nothing to do with it being unstayed. Pil, " if you have a building breeze you just pull one line and the jib is furled = gone.... " This sounds like "just release one spinnaker sheet and you won't capsize". And as likely to go wrong Furling flogging jibs is fun in daylight for the fresh and fit, less so in a rain squall at 3 in the morning when alone on deck. Less so again when the furler or line jams. Rare events, but more common than capsizing, which is why sensible cruisers worry about it. "Open one jammer and main falls into a bag" simply doesn't happen when running square in a squall, with too much breeze to safely round up into the wind and the sail pinned against the shrouds. It is far easier to release the unstayed main sheet, the rig weathercocks (on any point of sail) and the boat drifts until the squall passes or you leisurely reef. You also have not given any numbers, weights or experience to back up your claims about cheaper, faster and flopping about, nor commented on the benefits of unstayed rigs in post 34. Russ, Unstayed masts have 2 load points. The mast and the bit of hull it sits in. Both are build it and forget it. Tensioned rigs require regular adjustment, maintenance, inspection and replacement. Some people enjoy this stuff, most don't. Especially when a $10 dollar component (or backstay block) fails and the rig falls down while rounding an exposed rock in a breeze. Comments on post 34? Some cost and performance numbers to support your claim about wealthy and over optimistic multihull owners? Maybe something in response to the owners and designers who posted here, none of whom are either wealthy or optimistic? Gerald, The paint colour in the second photo bought back some memories!
  10. harryproa

    Rigging information

    The boats were designed for inside the atolls (30 or 40 miles across) and for near shore work outside. However, the Marshallese are excellent seamen and there is a plan to sail it to Aur, a low lying atoll 75 miles away. 2 of the guys are traditional navigators. They will find their way there and back using the clouds, waves, birds and other indicators. The boats were built at WAM, an excellent institution which takes the 25 worst kids on the island each tear and teaches them how to be upstanding citizens, including a course in traditional canoe building They have an exceptionally high success rate (feel free to donate). There are some pictures of the boats, including in a 30 knot rain squall on their Face Book page . The boss (one of the old style navigators) said " The proa is a super fast boat. Minister of Natural Resources and Commerce want to build this kind of boat to supplement the Japanese fish bases in the outer islands. These vessels are turning heads here", so it looks like some more will be built. For larger loads and bigger distances we are starting a prototype 80'ter in a couple of weeks time. Should be an official announcement between now and then.
  11. harryproa

    Bi plane rigged wing mast cat pros and cons?

    What a peculiar argument. There are far fewer people sailing 11.5m/38' bridge deck cats than there are sailing unstayed rigs. Yet you bought one. Instead of justifying your purchase, could you address the original comment that "Unstayed masts on multihulls are for the very wealthy or overly optimistic" or my rebuttal in post #34. Proas are especially well suited to unstayed masts, but Cat 2 Fold, Cactus Island and Cool Change are conventional, apart from C2F's foldability. All of them perform exceptionally well according to their owners, designers and people who have sailed on them. Mrs O, As I said in #34, I was involved in the Schionning rig selection process. I was not involved in the design or build, which was done by Etamax http://www.etamax.com.au. Re "fact checking". 1) According to the quote, the cost of the Ozone 700mm/28" chord wing masts was $17,433 each. Round ones were $12,000 each. The original owner reported he spent $75,000 total on the rig. Comparing a carbon wing mast to a standard Schionning rig is a bit silly. But if you do, you should support your "double the price" claim with the cost of a "standard Schionning rig" including sails, ropes, winches, furlers, mast, shrouds, traveller, striker and attachments. I suspect it would be more than $37,500. I further suspect that the cost of a stayed wing mast rig would exceed $75,000. Perhaps Pil could detail what a new rig, sails, etc etc would cost for XL2? For both a stayed rig and the unstayed rig he asserts is heavier and more expensive. If it hurts too much to do it for XL2, use the weight and cost analysis from whatever comparison lead to your conclusion. 2) I doubt they were 250 kgs heavier. I don't have the weights for Ozone's masts, but an unstayed wing mast for a Schionning G Force 12m (same loa) was built after Ozone's and weighed 155 kgs, painted with all fittings. Ozone's 2 smaller rigs (14m vs 16m) would be less than double this. I would be surprised if Etamax would over build by this amount, or that the original owner would accept it. Note that Ozone's 14m masts were so powerful, they cut 4m off them, making them even lighter and less likely to be the claimed 250 kgs heavier. 3) The Ozone rig was one of 3 that were ordered at the same time. One of the other owners, launched his boat but fell on hard times. He is getting back on his feet and talking to Etamax about his unstayed rig, so presumably he is not deterred by the gossip. There is another one on the DIY chat group (thanks for the heads up) who is also going with an unstayed biplane rig. He was in contact with the Ozone owner and would have seen Ozone when both of them were on the hard at Boat Works. The DIY chat group has some background on the mast height and location, rig choices, bow down trim (with conventional rigs) and problems the owners had with the designer before they asked me for advice. https://diy-yachts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=407&hilit=ozone&start=100 The Ozone original owner states "The boat tacks easily with just a turn of the wheel and sails equally well with one sail up" and describes how easy it was sailing 1,100 miles up the coast which indicates your statements about the boat's handling may be caused by something other than the original set up. Meanwhile, the enquiries for home and professional built unstayed masts keep arriving. Fortunately for progress, it would appear that there are quite a few boat owners who would prefer to look at the numbers and benefits rather than listen to unsupported negative generalisations by anonymous posters. He b, Cool, as usual. Sidecar, Great that you have got it sailing. Has that mast been out in a blow yet? Could you tell us the details of "heavier, more expensive than an unstayed rig", please. ie, actual numbers comparing the 2 rather than blanket assertions. "If they are so successful and such good bang for bucks, why aren’t there a lot more of them?" is rephrasing the question, not answering it. An answer requires actual numbers and response to the points I made in post #34. Particularly 3, 4, 5 and 6. Rustylaru, There is no cross over. Team Phillips was the highest righting moment race cat ever built, and had unstayed masts (cue photos of broken bows which are nothing to do with rig choice). It had a race crew of 5, compared to the other (smaller) cat's 16. For cruisers, it is more about safety and ease of use leading to higher daily averages. Plus the lack of maintenance (nothing to maintain), lower lifetime cost (nothing to replace) and not worrying (nothing to break). For home builders and pro builders who are not building race level rigs, it is about lower cost. Unstayed rigs are no brainers on all these points, regardless of boat size.
  12. harryproa


    Wise decision, old son. It would only make it cheaper, faster, lighter, easier to build and more interesting to sail. Sorry to hear it broke, but better on the mooring than half way to Great Barrier. Paulonia is a great strip plank material. But if it didn't rot when it got wet and warm, we would be in deep doodoo.
  13. harryproa

    Rigging information

    Here is a stayed polynesian/crabclaw/oceanic lateen rig on a 7m/24' custom Harryproa built in the Marshall Islands under my supervison earlier this year. It is far cheaper than a western stayed rig, as the rigging does not need to be drum tight, the spars are shorter and the sail is a flat sheet. On the down side, unless you have a proa, it will need a biplane mast to support it. The rig does not perform as well upwind as a correctly tuned and trimmed western rig which is not a problem if you are contemplating a typically overweight cruising cat with poor leeway prevention. Reaching it is probably quicker. Downwind the biplane is as hopeless as swept back spreader rigs. On the proa downwind works a treat. The weight of the spars and their lack of restraint might be an issue on a bigger boat, along with potential reefing difficulties. Any questions, let me know.
  14. Maybe a wishbone boom. No vang or traveller, just a snotter line (adjusts the distance from the mast to the front of the boom, controlling leech and foot simultaneously) and a mainsheet that is lighter loaded as it is only controlling the angle of attack, not the leech tension. Stowing the main is also easier as it sits in a bag under the boom. The Wylie guys have it pretty well sorted, albeit on an unstayed mast. http://www.wyliecat.com/wishbone_rig/index.html
  15. harryproa

    Perfect £150k single/double handed boat

    I could not agree more. Being different for the sake of it is totally perverse . But if you buy/build it because it meets your requirements better than any of the other boats mentioned, then it makes sense.