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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

harryproa

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  1. Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

    Thanks for the opportunity to explain further. The harryproa ideas are not new, but putting them all on the same platform was. Harryproas are a cross between a trimaran and a catamaran with the drawbacks of each replaced with what I (and the owners of all the "boats being built all over the world") see as better solutions. There is more information at www.harryproa.com The same applies to Intelligent Infusion, http://harryproa.com/?p=1845 which significantly reduces build time, waste, mess and cost. Nothing especially new, just a better way of using conventional. My post was for the people who don't want boats with the shortcomings pointed out by others in this thread. The ones who can see the problems and understand the solutions. People with this much imagination and foresight are smart enough to realise that most of the points I made in my post are well tested or so obvious that they don't even need testing. Things like the ease of use of unstayed rigs; less surface area and lower stress being cheaper and lighter; how the boat meets it's requirements is more important than the gear it carries; shallow draft being a plus and fixed rudders and daggerboards a minus; bunk numbers is not a good way of assessing room on a boat; a helmsman must be able to see to leeward; stayed rigs are more maintenance and stress on boat and crew; gybing a stayed rig in a gale is scary; enough sail area in a gale to be able to maneuver a conventional cat is too much for comfort, etc. They are also able to understand the answers and explanations I have posted so many times on so many forums replying to the trolls who follow me around, trying desperately to move the conversation from boats to their imagined version of me. The Bucket List story has also been posted. http://harryproa.com/?p=424#more-424 It was designed to be a fast, safe, low cost, easily assembled, unbreakable boat for race charter. Which it was. I put up the money and built a prototype, but no one was interested in backing the charter concept, for reasons (mostly paper work and bureaucracy) which made sense. I had to choose between optimising something that was simply a scaled up version of Elementarry http://harryproa.com/?p=1753#more-1753 which I built and raced 15 years ago, or turning it into something interesting to test out our latest ideas, developed for the Volvo Proa http://harryproa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/volvoproa.pdf prior to perhaps including them in our designs. It was a pretty easy choice to make.
  2. Wht havent' multihulls taken the world by storm

    Many of the multihull problems mentioned are real, and are the reasons they have not "taken over the world". The benefits are equally real. There are some solutions to the former that do not impact on the latter. 1) Performance and cost are about the amount of materials, which is about stress and surface area. Increase either and you need bigger rigs and motors to maintain performance and more laminate to build the boat. So you end up with 16 tonne all carbon 60' cats costing $3 million. Minimise each and you end up with 4 tonne fibreglass 60' harryproas at less than half a million. When comparing boats, it is more useful to compare what they achieve, rather than what they have on board. ie, Can it be handled by my spouse while I sleep? is more important than the number of electric winches, furling headsails and hydraulic mainsheets. Will the boat sail in 6 knots of breeze? rather than how many lightweather sails does it carry and the size of the motor. Does it sail at wind speed? is a more important question than whether it has carbon rigging, 3di sails, multiple winches and sundry extras for downwind sailing. Is the boat structure strong and stiff enough? instead of how much carbon is in the boat. etc 2) Difficulty of handling under sail applies to a lot of cats. Cabin top winches and jammers that cannot be reached comfortably, mainsails that can only be hoisted, lowered and reefed while pointing into the wind, headsails which flog when the sheet is released and set like sacks when partially furled, swept back shrouds making sailing dead down wind difficult/prone to accidental gybes and high main and jib sheet loads are some examples. A solution is to make it simple. Unstayed mast, self vanging wishbone boom and no extras is one option. Schooner or biplane if more sail area is required. You run downwind with the sails eased as far as required, with no extras or poled out headsails needed. Depower by releasing the lightly loaded mainsheet(s) and the boat will sit quietly until the squall passes. Or, sheet on a little and sail as fast or as slow as you like. The sails can be raised, lowered and reefed regardless of wind strength and direction and there is no need to go on the foredeck or to get the crew up to help. Gybing is as simple as putting the helm down. The boat runs by the lee until the wind catches the sail and blows it across until it is weathercocked. Steer back on course, the sail fills. In really bad conditions, it can be eased all the way forward and pulled in on the other side. Main sheet loads are low as the boom is self vanging. The eased sails don't flog. Maintenance, setting up and tuning are non existent apart from a coat of paint every 10 years. Simple, failsafe halyard locks reduce halyard size and wear. 3) Performance cats are percieved as dangerous, because they are. Not many of them sail in bad weather, but all of them worry about it (or should). Capsizes are rare, "oh shit" moments not so much. In strong winds they need to have enough sail up to provide speed to tack and steerage from rudders which are often too small. This is usually more sail area than is comfortable. Tacking a cat in strong winds and big seas can be hard work, made worse if you get in irons and drift backwards, stressing the rudders and steering. Gybing in big wind and waves is plain scary. Surfing at high speed down a wave while sheeting on the main, timing the bear away and the sheet release prior to it crashing across and into the shrouds is not for the faint hearted. Doing it short handed, at night, in the rain is worse. Fear of being hit by a squall adds a lot of stress to multihull cruisers, so they sail conservatively, reducing sail at night or in squally weather. This is a major cause of multis' poor performance runs on long trips. Depowering is often impossible as the eased headsail flogs violently and easing the main past the swept back shrouds is impossible. The effort and drama of removing/furling the big headsail and hanking on and raising a small one, and messing around on the cabin top to tuck in the deep reef exacerbates the problems. The harryproa solution is simple rigs (see above), large rudders (which also provide leeway resistance, removing the need for daggerboards or keels) and shunting instead of tacking. Shunting does not need any speed or timing of the waves. Dump the sheets, the boat stops, reverse the rudders and pull on the new sheets, the bow becomes the stern and you sail off in the opposite direction. Take as long as you like or change your mind half way through. Shunting is also a boon in a man overboard situation. Unless you are sailing ddw, shunt and you are immediately heading back to the mob. Dump the sheets and stop on top of him/her and retrieval is easy. 4) The corkscrew motion of a cat sailing upwind in a seaway is awful unless it is well powered up. A shorter windward hull allows the bows to meet the waves at the same time, making it more like a mono, without the heeling. Heeling is a fun part of mono sailing and is an indication that it is sailing "well", or at least is powered up. Trimaran and harryproa sailors get the same sense from immersion of the lee bow and any spray they generate. Without having to live at an angle. 5) Mooring multis is expensive and results in a long walk to get off the marina. If the accommodation is not between the hulls, and the boat has an unstayed rig, then telescoping the beams or folding without rotating the hulls is feasible up to about 40'. For cruisers, another option is to minimise marina and harbour use, with the added benefits of being away from the noise, bright lights, poluted harbours, drunks and low lifes. This is the stated plan of many cruisers, but is foiled by tenders which are either too much weight in the wrong place or not safe or fast unless it is calm. This was the reasoning behind the harryproa tender arrangement, which has the added benefit of reducing the number of engines on the boat along with their maintenance, cost and weight. 6) Layout: The helmsman should be sheltered, with the primary sail controls within reach and able to see the sails, 4 corners of the boat and all round the horizon. In particular, he should be able to see to leeward and ahead when the headsail is up. And be able to chat with the rest of the people on board. The galley, saloon, cockpit and tramp/lounging area work better if they are all on or near the same level with no steps or narrow side decks to get from one to the other. Forward cockpits is one solution, until it gets gnarly, but a better option is to rearrange the layout so the cabin is on the windward side of the boat, with the helm in its lee (or inside) and the lounging space/tramp/cockpit is between the beams and the hulls. http://harryproa.com/?p=1747#more-1747 Boats should be designed for the numbers of people on board and their likely use. The number of bunks, showers and toilets is a good way to compare charter boats, but pretty irrelevant for liveaboards, weekenders, day sailers, racers and cruisers. A 60'ter is a good live aboard for 4 people, week at a time for 6, weekender for 8, day sailor and dinner party for 12 and party boat for 40 (everyone comfortably seated and sheltered from the sun). The layout should match as many of these as are relevant to the proposed use. Shallow draft is a safety feature and a labour/cost reducer. Lifting rudders and boards in big breaking seas means there is nothing to trip the boat when sliding sideways and more options when looking for shelter. It also allows you to run up a beach if everything turns to custard (lee shore, rope around the prop, override on the main sheet, anchor dragging, jib furler jammed, crew with fingers caught in the main traveller, etc) with a good chance of resuming sailing again the next day. Shallow draft also means easy bottom cleaning (no haul out or diver required) or fitting bags so cleaning (or antifouling) is not required. And anchoring close to the beach for less, or no tender use. 7) Capsize While a harryproa is less likely to capsize than a same weight cat due to the uneven weight distribution, flexible masts and other safety features mentioned above, it can still happen. Because the sheets are (relatively) lightly loaded, it is simple to fit a sheet release activated by a floating wand (similar to the wand on a foiling moth) which immediately and completely releases all the sheet, at a predermined angle of heel or pitch on any point of sail. As it is a float based release, these angles can be very low. On the down side, the proa is different, so resale will be more difficult. However, if the 60' cat cost 3 million new and sold at a 20% discount, you lose 600K, which is more than the initial cost of the proa. Proas also look weird, which is a drawback to many. To others it is a really good conversation starter.
  3. Bucket List

    The cat ddw has the entire boat pointing ddw. The proa has the foils pointing ddw, the rest is at 90 degrees. Tacking, the rudders need to move at different rates to minimise the time taken. A foil under the ww hull will be required for foiling shunts, but not for foiling sailing. One thing at a time. Loose Cannon, We tried it with the kite on the long hull, foil on the little one and it worked ok. https://vimeo.com/127926604 But it should work better with the foils and crew on the long hull, kite on the short one, which is what we will try on BL. Kiting is the future (no masts, keels, standing rigging, minimal deck gear, low stresses on the hull(s)), but there are some little problems to sort out first. Launching, retrieving, powering up, close quarters and night kiting to mention a few. A lot of smart people are working on these, eventually they will be solved, but we are not there yet.
  4. Bucket List

    Not sure any of the cats you mention have 2 wand controlled foils to lee. And they all have their front foils more or less under the coe. I have no idea how often they fall off the foils in a gybe. Nor how much less likely we will be to do so with a front foil well ahead of the coe and wands on both foils, which is why I am building the boat. Aligning the hulls with the apparent wind would help, but is a long way down the development track. It would need 2 sets of steering, one for the rudders, one for the hulls. On BL the aim is to foil, then work on the shunts. Initially it will not have a foil under the windward hull. I am pretty sure I will not have to deliberately screw up a shunt to find out what happens!
  5. Bucket List

    Not sure what you mean b y "empirical data". The moths do crash, until the sailors know how to control them. Compared to BL, they have operator controlled rear foils, rely a lot on crew weight movement and have the front foil below the centre of effort of the rig, all of which makes them more twitchy, I think. And probably faster. The weight comes from supporting the post around which the hulls (particulalry the windward one with the beam set up and rig arrangement that we currently have) rotate and the steering loads when the boat is not foiling. If the set up we plan does not work, then steering the hulls has potential. Thanks. Smith's ideas are cool, and have something in common with BL, but are quite different when it comes to foiling shunts, foiling arrangement and rig. The buoyant hydrofoils are potentially great, but I could not bring myself to build such minimal volume floats. The original drawings had 3m x 300 x 300 floats. This has grown to 3.5 x 450 high x 350 wide, and they still look pretty small.
  6. Bucket List

    Agree about the sideways jerk, but the plan is to not come off the foils at speed. No (theoretical) reason why it should, but there may be some practical ones, which we will discover on BL. I once built a 12m cat with hulls which yawed independantly and making it work on BL would be a big job. And heavy. Hopefully, it won't be required. Albatross, Ta.
  7. Bucket List

    Different folks, different strokes. I like to try new stuff. Once I see it will work, I tend to move on to something else, particularly when that is better/more interesting than the old stuff. I can put x dollars and y hours into an experimental boat to prove it works. I can then spend 10 times as much of each to get it looking good and working perfectly and sell it for what the materials cost if I am lucky. The overheads and labour, most of which is hard work turning filler into dust and poisoning yourself with exotic paints, is unpaid. Or, I can demonstrate it works, then sell it for a pittance, store it "just in case", give it away or take it to the tip and save myself a truck load of labour. The flattery that comes with well finished boats and winning races is not worth the time involved if all you want to do is see if something works. For me, it is about making new ideas work, especially if I am going to sell plans including them. I sailed BL enough to know it would fulfill it's design requirements (4 boats in a container, shipped around the world to regattas for low cost charter racing). However, there was no interest in setting it up as a business so I moved on. Something I did not include in the original reasons for throwing in the towel/giving up/spitting the dummy/whatever derogatory term you want to use on BL is that I need to hire a shed (expensive round here) and slip and truck the boat back and forth. BL Foiling can be taken apart on the beach, carried across the road and put in the garage. Again, time and money. Raz'r, There was nothing on the Bucket List concept that we had not already tried apart from the righting, which has now been superceded. The problem was with the business model, not the boat. There are brief, unedifying videos of the first 2 sails at http://harryproa.com/?p=424#more-424 I agree there are "plenty of foilers", but foiling shunting 40'ters that weigh 350 kgs/770 lbs with telescoping rigs are a bit less common, don't you think? If you really are "interested in Bucket List" (post 164) and think "refining it" with your (implied) "time and money" "would be great" (169), I am happy to help you do so. Build one and race it to it's potential and I will refund your plans cost and give you 10% of any future plans sold. Overlay, Better. You are now reading what is written. Next step is to stop reading the press releases and read the tender document http://tender.volvooceanrace.com, which specifies a multihull, does not mention catamarans at all. The tender requirement was for a futuristic, fast, challenging, cost effective, easily rigged and transported, rightable, VIP suitable, out of the box, foiling multihull with potential for other classes and a low carbon footprint. The Volvo Proa solutions are at http://harryproa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/…/volvoproa.pdf. The cat or tri that meets them better will be an interesting machine. The announcement is next week.
  8. Proa

    Probably Hocus Pocus, designed and built by the clever guy who put Cat 2 Fold together. We are helping him replace his in hull rudders with kick up versions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhnGwcrSyw He has apparently replaced his masts with larger unstayed ones since this video was taken. Incicdentally, Cat 2 Fold is for sale at a very good price, the owner has fallen in love with Kleen Breeze, the 20m harryproa recently launched in Portugal. http://harryproa.com/?p=562#more-562
  9. Bucket List

    Nothing wrong with Bucket List apart from the items in my post. The Volvo Proa ideas are novel so more interesting to spend my time and money on. Whaddami? A wimp. 40 years ago, I delivered a 12m cat from UK to Trinidad, leaving the UK in December. The crew nicknamed me 'Penguin' as I did not wear shoes or boots when sailing. Now, I don't enjoy working on boats when it is less than 20C so for a couple of months each year, I don't. Overlay, Close? No. Read the lines I write instead of putting what you want to see between them.
  10. Bucket List

    You bet! It will be tried with a kite before a conventional rig as it is so much simpler/cheaper to set up. We are also involved with Kitetik http://harryproa.com/?p=2052#more-2052, a 15m/50' kite powered harryproa which will have foils fitted this summer. Kitetik is a development of the experiments we did in Elementarry https://vimeo.com/127926604
  11. VOR 2019-2020

    Bucket List and the Volvo Proa are totally unrelated, so why not? Included in our proposal was building a half size model to prove the concept. This would have cost Volvo 25,000€ in a program that budgeted 7.5 million Euros for 10 boats and would have been sailing when the winner was announced. We were not short listed, so I am using Bucket List as the proof of concept. If/when it works, we will sell plans for home and pro builders.
  12. VOR 2019-2020

    Not sure if this was too far "out of the box" or not enough. Regardless, it was not short listed for the Inshore foiling multihull. http://harryproa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/…/volvoproa.pdf
  13. Bucket List

  14. Sailrocket 3 - The Offshore version

    Agreed. An example, which ties in with your comments about max sail area and stability is the other Beiker proa, Team Pure and Wild, which was actually built and raced, as opposed to Jester 2 which was neither. Perhaps Rob Z could calculate TPW's Base Speed and compare it with what was actually achieved? Rob Z, I have indeed been on other threads where you have used this formula, but never considered it important or relevant enough to test it with real boat numbers. When i did, (see previous posts), it appears to be flawed. As well as examples of unbuilt boats that agree with your formula (perhaps because the VPP uses the same inputs?), maybe you could comment on the real world examples i gave above, where it doesn't? Do you know the parameters of the Jester 2 VPP? ie, hull flying or not, water ballast or not, crew location, sail plan, etc. These are just some of the elements that make proa speed (and behaviour) predictions a difficult task. What are the errors in the Shuttleworth and Bethwaite formulae?
  15. A Cat Worlds Sopot

    I enjoy your posts and find them educational. Please keep them coming. rob