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Posts posted by GauchoGreg

  1. 10 minutes ago, Geff said:

    Symbio stated his English isn't very fluent, which means there are statements that get lost in translation.  I'll take his word for it, until proven otherwise, then trash the sht out of him and open season.

    Now that's the attitude! 

    But seriously, I do not believe it is his wording, but rather his point.  He seems to be claiming (regardless how the words being clunky) that foilers can't go a week at pace similar to IDEC, and that they really don't have many areas where they have an advantage.  That is reason, not wording.... with that, I trash/flame away!

    By the way, my MO is to have a very forgiving attitude on message boards... if Symbio makes a great point in his next point, I will ignore what he said in his previous post and give him props.  Hell, I did that with DougLord all the time, where others would NEVER recognize him making a decent point.

    • Like 2
    • Downvote 1

  2. 14 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:


    I'm sure there has been something worse not shown on any publicized video than the posted still image in question.

    Just saying that photo makes it look like it is digging in badly, but in actuality the boat just cuts through that without significant slowing. 

    Maybe they will end up going with longer foils, but I'm guessing that comes with its own hazards... to start with having longer foils dictates more leverage and higher stress on the foils and linkages.  Also, having the boat higher can result in the boat having more height to come down from... that could lead to much more dramatic crashes off the foils.  Maybe the best compromise is to have the boat more frequently skipping off the water or having minor periods of the noses cutting through waves, but a safer set up.  We will see, I'm sure.

    One thing is for sure, we seem to have had much less issues with pitchpoling than in the past, seems the stability of the boats has been very good, they just have had to deal with cavitation damage, impact damage, and linkage damage.... the first and last are much more easily fixable.

  3. 15 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

    I dont' know, but as an example most threads in AC anarchy contained pretty nice technical conversation about what possibilities for really fast sailing boats could be done under rules after Oracle announced their deed of gift challenge and before they showed any information of their boat named Dogzilla before AC33 took place. that took place more than 10 years ago, perhaps there were something nice before that too?

    Huh?  What does that have to do with people getting pissy about sharp comments?  Did anyone suggest no one talk about tech of the boats?  Nope.  Symbio came in making claims that are not founded as if he had some data to back it up, did so in the face of all the best designers moving in the direction of these foiling concepts, and doing so ignoring that Gitana was NEVER trying to go full top speed, but rather always balancing their tempo with preserving the boat and optimizing the routing for the systems that were available to them.  He rightly got called on it.  Then wankers come in to I guess defend him, or try and make this venue "nice".  Screw that, just throw it out there rather than making this place another damned PC place safe for the hyper-sensitive.  If I make a douchey comment, I deserve to be ripped for it... big fucking deal.

    • Like 1

  4. Just now, NotSoFast said:

    This picture clearly shows one of the reasons why I presented idea that a cat with 6 foils in different locations than ultimes for Jules Verne record breaking makes sense in this post: 


    Even with same size foilstruts in vertical dimension all bows would be off the water if front foils would be further forward.

    On the video where that capture comes from, that "nose dive" is no where near as bad as it looks in the still image.

  5. 1 minute ago, NotSoFast said:

     Gitana 17 is lighter than idec with same overall dimensions. Foilsystems increase loadings. Combine those and you should realize why Gitana 17 either uses better materials, better structural design or less safety factors. It makes no difference if the part that actually failed had something to do with foiling or not. It could have been made stronger and heavier for the same overall weight of the boat, if it would have had less and/or smaller foils.

    Might we wait to see the cause of the damage before jumping to conclusions?  If they hit something large, it (foiling) is probably irrelevant.  If it is fatigue from foiling, it is then a valid point that has to be handled, just like all technology.  Just like they learned about the cavitation damage on the TJV withdrawal.  This was the first time that a sailboat foiled on the open ocean for 10K miles.

    The point I was making is that people like Symbio who thinks that technology advancing happens smoothly, or if there are setbacks the design is the wrong idea, are ignorant.  Ooooh, sorry hyper-sensitive types that seem to forget that Sailing Anarchy has always been a place where people are not supposed to get butthurt, act as mommy for those who get butthurt, or have to watch how they say things.

  6. Cue the Symbio idiot to claim that the damage is because the boat is a foiler.... making such claim without knowing a damned thing whether the rudder component that broke has anything to do with foiling, and ignoring that the boat was not doing anything "foiling" that a waterborne boat wouldn't have been doing.

  7. Great new video.... clearly they are not going as fast as they possibly can, but rather they discuss the challenge of finding the right speed to go.

    By the way, amazing how much more comfortable these boats are now in the Southern Ocean than just a few years ago.  Basically, even in the Roaring 40s, one guy has his head out in the elements, and the rest are almost always tucked away in a comfy cockpit with relatively light clothes on.

    • Like 1

  8. 2 hours ago, symbio2 said:

    Schematically, these pure foiling Ultims, are just a tad quicker from around 70° to 130° of the wind, with a swell under about 2 meters. Beside that, these boat are significantly slower. 

    It's what the polar datas, along sea state, show.

    Btw, the picture just above illustrating very nicely my view.

    For the North Atlantic segment, while the weather was pretty nice with full tailwind up to the tradewinds who were really great (beside, with the tradewinds there is never serious swell to deal with), Gitana wasn't quicker than Idec.

    Yes they partly preserved the boat, but it's because there is huge uncertainties on the reliability, while it's totally part of the performance equation.

    In the South Atlantic, the weather was perfect for Gitana from start to the finish (while Idec struggled with larger doldrums, unstable tradewinds and transition with a low pressure system that needed some positioning adjustments). Among others, Gitana perfectly used the amazing accuracy of the latest developments in forecast and routing.

    Now with the "south ocean", serious things starting.


    The Sodebo attempt shown same problematics.


    Some forget way to much that Idec was able to maintain an average day of 35nds (850nm by day) almost 10 days in a row, and on a direct VMG (while dealing with differents low pressure system...).

    And so far these foiling Ultims can't do this (even with the exact same weather than Idec had to deal with, among others because as soon as that the sweel is above something around 2,5m the boat average speed decrease strongly).

    Also I think, in the current "config", these foiling Ultims never will.


    " Schematically, these pure foiling Ultims, are just a tad quicker from around 70° to 130° of the wind, with a swell under about 2 meters. Beside that, these boat are significantly slower.


    Dude, you are trying way too hard to sound like you know what you are talking about, and doing so pissing against the wind of the very best offshore boat designers all coming around to the same design basis... foiling boats.  Fact of the matter, a LOT of the track for these offshore boats is in pretty ideal conditions for the foilers, and where it is not ideal, the data we have is that they can hold their own with all but possibly Spindrift.  Spindrift is the only tank around these days that might be able to push through in the much heavier conditions that would be truly boat-breaking for boats like Gitana and IDEC, alike.  Otherwise, we have not seen anything showing that Gitana could not sail right with IDEC (or the last Sodebo) in relatively rough conditions.  I could see the one sea state where the foilers may not be able to keep up with a boat like IDEC would be in REALLY light conditions, but not sure about that with IDEC when sporting the short mast.  Tradewind sailing, transition sailing, they appear to have a significant advantage.  Rough conditions, probably pretty equal... they just lose their advantage.  But another factor about these boats, we have not heard of any near pitchpoles... I believe the foils are helping tame the boats a bit. 

    As for wind polars and performance... you best come with data to support your claims.

    • Like 3

  9. 53 minutes ago, symbio2 said:

    I'm going to "set the cat among the pigeons"...

    Contrary to what is said everywhere (as vastly admitted), very watchful observations this winter show that for transoceanic navigation, too much long to really choose the weather, these full foiling ultims are not quicker than the non foiling ultims (old of almost a decade ago).

    Their speed suffers to much of the sea state, also they are slightly less able to heading near the wind direction (and obviously, less reliable).

    Overall, in many ways, in the context of this type of navigations, I think that these full foiling boats reach some sort of glass ceiling... (and perhaps, a part of the solution will come of approaches developed for the AC75...).

    Yeah, no.  If you have been following this for any period of time, you will know that all boats have always had failed attempts due to breakage, collisions, etc.  Every generation gets quicker, although yes there are more things that can break.  But the thing is you have to beat the previous generation, and to do that with anything other than luck, you need to be able to go faster, faster overall, not just in one sea state.  These boats are much faster in marginal conditions, not necessarily the worst or best conditions... they have the ability to transition faster, to be able to catch lows better, to skip to another system / avoid the worst seastate, etc.  A robust boat that can hold optimal speed even in rough sea state on a low is still captive to the pace of the low they are on... and if they are slower in marginal conditions to transition to the next low, they are going to get beat by a boat like Gitana, even if Gitana is not going any faster while riding the low. 

    There is a reason why you can see on the plotter Gitana did MUCH better in the Atlantic than IDEC without ever reaching 24h record speeds (for reasons like preventing cavitation damage on a 40-day trip)... if they can just match or stay close to IDEC's performance in optimal conditions, then beat their performance when things are not optimal.... such as the couple of days in the Pacific when IDEC struggled, or on the way up the South Atlantic, when IDEC again struggled.  Yes, they may have exposure to a few more things to go wrong, but that is the way of racing.... there is a reason why all of the efforts are opting for similar boats.  But just as has always been the case, if they can avoid  hitting things or breaking things, get a bit of luck, Gitana will be the next trophy holder.

    Is there a place for a renovated/modified Spindrift, which is a veritable tank, that might be more able to robustly deal with heavier seas?  Maybe.  But if you think it will come away from a collision with a shipping container or something similar, any better, I would not bet on it.

    • Like 1

  10. On 1/18/2021 at 9:07 PM, Airwick said:

    it looks to me like they are going to be gybing about 2.5 days, at which point they will also be behind the front with presumably worse sea states so they will likely slow down.

    They might have a shot at the 24h record over the next 48h depending on how hard they push but they'd have to pick up a couple extra nots of speed for that. I don't think they've broken 37kt over a 4h period yet so it's not looking very likely right now. Then again they probably don't want to take to much risk as they have a long way to go still and the 24h record isn't their primary objective...

    The other factor relative to how fast they want to push it on a RTW race, with these new boats, is cavitation damage on the foils.  Gitana is going to be particularly sensitive to this given they had to give up one race, already, due to cavitation damage.  No sense in going those few extra knotts that may compromise the foils in a race that is 40 days long.  They can always try to do a North Atlantic / 24h record attempt.

  11. 12 hours ago, serialsailor said:

    I think it might be wrong to think Gitana is much faster than IDEC in all conditions. From what we've seen, it seems Gitana is indeed much faster in medium conditions, because they can get foiling when IDEC couldn't, but i think this gap is reduced in heavy conditions, where foiling becomes complicated and which IDEC with its small mast was optimised for. I still think gitana is a faster boat overall, but that is more due to their excellent speeds in transitional zones with foiling conditions (allowing them to get to another system without slowing down to much which is a big advantage!) than their top high speed averages. We havent seen a boat break the 24 h record in 10 years but i hope Gitana is the one that does it.

    IDEC's run in the Indian cannot be understated, 6 days at more than 35 knots in front of the low is amazing. It is also hard to beat because you have to stay in the front to have those speeds. It has to have the right speed and travel with you. Maybe some day we'll see Gitana, Sodebo or one of the incoming Ultims sailing several days at 40 knts in the right front but you do have to get really lucky.

    Gitana in the same low that Idec had a few years ago probably wouldn't have been faster on that amazing run because IDEC never fell behind the front, they just slowed down and gybed when it fizzled out. I remember them saying that it was a lot of work staying in front of the low, and that they almost fell behind at one point, so Gitana might have had an easier time staying in front, but hardly could have gone faster in the same low because the farther forward you are, the less wind there is.

    Some day we will get boats able to punch in front through the next system, but we haven't seen Gitana do that (yet ;) )


    Absolutely.  My point was just that it is pretty tough to make a claim that Gitana HAD to be ahead of IDEC by X amount in the first 1/3rd of the course in order to have a chance of beating Idec's JVT time.  Who knows, maybe Gitana will absolutely rip across the Pacific, hit the coast of Brazil perfectly....There are plenty of opportunities for a faster boat to beat IDEC's time, regardless of how hard it may be to overcome Idec's great track across the Indian ocean.  Now, if Gitana was a slower boat, it would b a monumentally harder feat to overcome Idec's Indian crossing.

    • Like 2

  12. On 1/15/2021 at 7:51 AM, Former MDR Vandal 1 said:

    " ... the crew of the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild crossed the equator this Friday 15 January at 14h48'32'' UTC, after 5 days 13 hours 14 minutes and 46 seconds at sea. Though this first passage time is a far cry from the outright record for this section, which has been held since 2019 by Spindrift Racing in a time of 4 days 19 hours 57 minutes ..."

    IDEC's time was 5 days 18 hours 59 minutes.  L. Peyron's time in 2011 was 5 days 14 hours 55 minutes.

    As I have said in previous posts, using IDEC, which was several hundred miles BEHIND the record pace at Cape of Good Hope, as a metric for the dive down the Atlantic is not the appropriate measure of progress.  You have to be a lot FASTER than IDEC at the Cape of Good Hope to compensate for their run in the Indian Ocean and Pacific  Gitana will pick up some miles over the next few days as IDEC was slow for a few days after they entered the South Atlantic on the way to the Cape of Good Hope.

    After that, look out ...

    Not really true.  They don't HAVE to be way ahead of IDEC.  You would be right if they did not have a faster boat.  Of course Idec had a great bunch of days ahead of where the boat is, now, but to think Gitana can't do better, with a MUCH newer and faster boat, is simply wrong.  It certainly would have taken the pressure off them if they did not have to match or beat Idec's performance in the coming week(s), but they certainly can do at least as well with a next generation boat capable of knocking off miles significantly faster than IDEC.

  13. 1 hour ago, Bebmoumoute said:


    More of this, please.   I love seeing the drone footage on these off-shore excursions.

    I have always thought, though, that the simplest, cheapest, and probably least risky way to have aerial footage would be to set up a very small control kite with a cam on it.  They could use something like that for boat monitoring and ice/object spotting.

    • Like 1

  14. On 2/18/2020 at 8:48 AM, JonRowe said:

    I am assuming you mean beyond "going quick" which is the basic point of any racing boat, wasn't the original purpose to be a one design record setting ocean racer? Similar to the point of the Ultimes now but with a shared design to reduce cost?

    My point is that none are still OD and there are no OD events for them... they cannot compete with the bigger boats, they cannot set records, they are unlikely to win line-honors unless against boats they really should hardly care to race against, they cannot win handicapped events (nor would owners of such boats likely care to try), they are tweeners... too small to really tackle big races (big ocean stuff... see what Bruno Peyron said about them) but pretty awkward to use just for fun.  Yeah, I would love to get a ride on one, and really impressive for what they can do at the price one can secure one for, but I don't see the point in owning one.