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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Doug Lord

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About Doug Lord

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  • Birthday 06/17/1949

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  • Location
    Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests
    Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

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  1. Terry, I heard from Michi, the owner of the Company that conceived of and promotes the boat, that they have done foiling gybes.
  2. This boat would not require a canting keel and would be self-righting like any good keelboat with an assist from the buoyancy pods.
  3. Terry, don't forget that the first foiling keelboat-the Quant 23-has a "long fin with a bulb on the end.." and takes off in a 5 knot wind and foils upwind in 7-8 knots of breeze. It is for sure "successful"!
  4. NZAC ONE-----my initial conception of how the design could work: 1) I don't much like the bow but the idea was to make it a bit safer for anyone working up there. 2) Both foils pivot in their own pivoting trunk to retract-they could also slide up if required. 3) This type of foil doesn't need to be constantly adjusted-very rarely adjusted since it is a surface piercing foil 4) Only one mainfoil and the rudder T-foil in the water providing lift--plus the keel providing lateral resistance. 5) Didn't have time to draw it but the flared section of the main hull is relatively short in a F& A direction to keep weight down.
  5. Aside from providing huge RM, another great potential of using surface piercing foils like Welbourns "Q" foils is NOT having to fly the lee foil like on the Cats-automatic altitude control with speed. You might change cant for certain conditions. And you only have two foils working for lift(one at a time) and the keel and rudder t-foil. No need for more foils. No need for twin rudders. No need for powered systems. picture from Michi-builder of the Q 23:
  6. WOLF---daughter of fire arrowUpdated 9/22/17 specs and notes:NOTE: I'm sure various changes will continue until(and after) the boat is launched-that's what development is all about.WOLF Specifications:LOA 15.458' (4.7m)---Beam max-18.75' (5.72m)changed 3/22/17-beam folded-8' (2.4m)-main hull beam on deck: 2.625'(.8m)-main hull beam at wl: 2.125'(.65m)-main hull L/B at wl:7.27/1 (planing)---Two Stage Ama-11.5' (3.5m) changed 3/22/17-ama hull-7.7' (2.35m)-ama hull beam .58' (.18m)-ama hull L/B=13.3/1 (planing)- curved piece-5.9' (1.8m) changed 3/22/17- overlap- 2' (.61m)- two stage ama canted bottom out 12 degrees.- two stage ama buoyancy(not including crossarms)=252lb(61%)-changed 7/27/17 : Note: planing two stage ama is designed for incidental contact with the water. Not to be sailed "on" on a regular basis since foils provide vertical lift. The planing surface is used to reduce drag when the ama does make incidental water/wave contact at speed. Hydroptere adopted stepped,planing amas after first starting with a "normally" shaped ama.---Weight:updated 6/12/17-boat-target-275lb/ MAX 299lb (135.9kg)changed 6/12/17-crew-215lb (97.7kg)-sailing/flying weight: target-(215+ 275)490lb. (222.7kg.)MAX-(215+299)=514lb(233.6kg) changed 6/12/17---Sail Area: updated 6/12/17-main + jib= 217sq.ft(20.17sq.m)changed 6/12/17- spin/screecher about 150 sq.ft(13.9sq.m)-Sail Loading-MAX weight in pounds/SA in sq.ft.:--upwind=2.37 changed 6/12/17--downwind=1.4 changed 6/12/17--max pressure before depowering= 1.76lb/sq.ft. --max heeling moment=5402ft.lb.* * not including asy/screecher---Seating: there are two levels of very comfortable seating on each side of the boat. The upper level has a sliding and removable seat back for great back support while flying. Some degree of adjustment may be incorporated in the lower seating level. See the pictures below for a rough idea of the basic seating plan. added to spec sheet 9/16/17---Designed flight angle of heel: 5.5 degrees to 15 degrees. Standard 10 degrees.---Main hull flight altitude at centerline: .5'(.15m)---2'(.61m),Standard 1.19'(.36m)---Righting moment at target weight(not max weight) : updated 6/12/17-crew 215 @14'= 3010ft.lb.( 4081N/m)*-boat 275 @ 8.7'= 2392.5ft.lb.( 3243.79N/m)TOTAL RM= 5402.5ft.lb (7324.8N/m) Downforce from main foil(if used) approx. 1500ft.lb.(2033.7 N/m)* N/m conversion done from online converter--- Foils:-uptip foil in each ama, adjustable AOI and up/down(mostly retractable). Tentative AOI-3-5 degrees over twisted foil. Asymmetrical section.-- added 3/25/17These foils have a "droop" to the tip first used on Fire Arrow which was the first trimaran to combine a droop tip with an UptiP foil on any trimaran ever!9/22/17--see posts 2577 and 2587 for the Fire Arrow "droop", WOLF "droop" and the Gitana 17 ama UptiP foil tip "droop".-mainfoil wand altitude control, adjustable AOI(nominal 2.5 degrees),up/down(retracts flush with bottom). Symmetrical section.-- added 7/28/17-rudder T-foil, adjustable AOI(nominal zero degrees),retractable. -Note that in their smooth water configuration, the uptip foils can be left down at their flying position when the boat is pulled up on the beach! And, of course, as mentioned before these foils do not have to be raised or lowered each time the boat tacks or gybes. This is not found on any other boat using uptip foils. The Fire Arrow Type/ WOLF uptip foils are shallow draft compared to most other types of hydrofoil. added 3/29/17--- Planing surface on lee ama hull is designed to be flat when main hull is just clear of the water(6") and that will occur at an angle of heel of 12 degrees.(Depending on foil lift-3/25/17)
  7. I agree! With the innovative history of TNZ there a good chance for a leading edge boat. But the influence of the Italians may knock that down. We'll see.......
  8. TC, do mean flaps on a foil or an all moving foil? I don't understand: why introduce the complication of flaps to one of the simplest, most automatic, foil systems possible? As you envision it, would the foils stick out past the racks? Would you even use racks to get the crew further outboard? There may be a lot of opposition to foils sticking out so far that they are the first thing that makes contact with another boat?! My idea would be to use racks to get the crew out as far as possible and use the racks to prevent the foils being the first to contact another boat?
  9. TC, the foils in your picture are DSS-1 and wouldn't work for a fully foiling boat. The foils need to exit the hull above the waterline and with a narrow waterline hull the boat would have to have designed with flair above the max heeled waterline where the "Q"(DSS-2) foils could be mounted. In my opinion, the racks should be similar to the ones in your picture, just wider. The foils would be more like those on the Q23 than those on the DSS-1 boat to allow the new boat to fly at a specific altitude. Foils would be basically surface piercing foils which would require minimum adjustment in rake and would NOT have to be flown as the AC Cat foils were, but would require possibly more adjustment in cant but only for major changes in conditions. All in all the "Q" foils would be much simpler to control since they would basically function automatically. PS-I think this boat would be very much an apparent wind boat.....
  10. Based on the proven performance of the Quant 23 foil system, potential for excellent VMG is great especially with the mods for an AC boat like a canting mast, and relatively narrow, pointed hull(with wide racks) for excellent performance in waves.
  11. Hey, TC! And the cool thing is the thing wouldn't need an internal combustion engine and the foils would be "shielded" by the racks(less dangerous in close racing). The hull would be pretty narrow but the racks which are necessary for using the crew as RM would make the overall beam the same or a bit wider than the foils. It could really work!
  12. Not if the Welbourn "Q" foils are used-the center of lift of the lee foil is way outboard and allows tremendous RM. The AC version could have racks that stick out further than the Q foils which would tend to eliminate foil to hull contact between raceboats. Might be able to get away with the min ballast to allow self-righting with a very deep keel, a canting mast*, no canting keel and still have enough RM from the Q foils to fly upwind and down with no motor running. The crews probably wouldn't have to run any further than they did on the cats. * crew powered The Quant-the first foiling keelboat- takes off in 5 knots wind and flys upwind in 7-8.
  13. Seems to me you won't have the RM you need to foil upwind w/o a canting keel and big racks, plus "Q" foils. But if anyone can find a motorless solution ,Verdier can..... picture sent to me from Michi-- Worlds first foiling keelboat:
  14. WOLF daughter of fire arrow--- mainfoil recessed when retracted:
  15. Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use UptiP foils with a droop tip on the ama foils. WOLF will use a similar foil possibly with an added feature. The WOLF foils would be the only full size UptiP foils on any tri or any other multihull that don't require the retraction/deployment of the ama foils with every tack or gybe. The daggerboard foil on WOLF is a unique curved board that retracts flush with the bottom allowing the boat to beach with no foil damage. The model foils were made on quickie molds requiring hand shaping. Carbon was used because I wanted really thin basic foils-all the foils and the wing mast(7" chord) are in duratec awaiting finishing.This is not a sailing model-strictly to illustrate the fullsize design using the basic Fire Arrow Foil System. The priorities for this design are light air takeoff, easy singlehanding with automatic mainfoil downforce, no hassle UptiP ama foils and Extreme Comfort.......... pictures by DL: WOLF ama foils and curved daggerboard foil: