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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.


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About recompense@hotmail.com

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  1. Many 24s racing today, including mine built 1999, race with their original spars. So, they can last 15-20 years, so far
  2. A well sailed O30 with the rail meat with enough wind to use a #3, about 18knts, is much much faster upwind than a M24 unless the water is unusually flat, perhaps, like in a river or something. Light sport boats just don't do that well at all, no knock against the Melges. Waves and the lack of ability to shorten sail are the reasons. We always carried the #1 upwind to 18 knots true, it pointed better and was far faster than running the #3. And I completely agree that on the upwind leg, in 18 true, the Olson will be a little faster than a Melges 24. But. Once you round the top mark, the Melges will be completely gone, while the Olson might only be just barely surfing. It takes a great crew, a great driver, and 20+ to get the Olson lifting out of the water a bit downwind. Hell, this is true even for the Mumm/Farr 30, a much quicker design. The Melges is far more stable, far easier to gybe, and far quicker on any off-wind point of sail and will win when you consider both up and downwind. Also, the Melges is set up for very-easy-on-the-water rig adjustment. If the wind is up to 18, it is very easy to depower the boat with a little rig, some backstay, that beautiful and bendy carbon stick, and sail the boat to its full potential. The Olson has a postage-stamp main and was always harder to balance out when changing jibs, because its a jib-driven boat like all Santa Cruz ULDBs. They are just different animals. Many of the Seattle-area ex-Olson owners are currently in Melges 24s. It's not a fluke.
  3. Almost every racing Olson that I am familiar with had jockstraps and BOD installed, including mine. While the boat advert looks very nice and clearly the current owner has done a nice job with the boat, the BOD especially looks like a good design, the asking price for a 35-year old balsa-cored boat even in mint condition is not in the normal ballpark for well-maintained Santa Cruz ULDBs. You could get a well-maintained Moore 24, SC27 or Olson 30 with trailer all for around 10-15k. You can get a racing Melges 24 for 25k. Consider that *as a class* the Olson 30 was always an experimental class with a fairly loose set of One Design rules, and isn't fielding the fleets it was back in the mid-90s, so isn't going to yield stellar, level racing. When I owned my boat, all the boats were different in subtle ways and fielding the crew of 8 required to be competitive was prohibitive to the fun factor. More modern boats, like *cough* the venerable and now 20-year old Melges 24 design, can basically outsail the Olson 30 in almost all conditions (except under 6 knots of breeze) and points of sail. Plus they are vastly easier to maintain, vastly more trailerable, have significantly larger upside for One Design sailing, and are much more fun to sail. Only problem with the Melges 24 is you can't sleep on it, so if you are getting the Olson 30 as an overnight racer, cool. It IS a great Hawaii boat!
  4. Round the County is always a great time and a great sail.
  5. Rage is still great. Not quite as OP as she used to be. Very fun to sail, far simpler than most sleds. Went to Tahiti in 2012 along with Beau Geste '80.
  6. Bieker Riptide 35 MK II The Riptide 35s (both old and new) have gone to Hawaii many times now with 4 on board, and go fast enough to pass most 50+ footers on all points of sail. We have two of them around here and they are always crushing just about everything that moves. Not cheap but the water in the Bieker 35, or the keel on the 35ss, make up for some of the bodies needed, so you can stand watch with 1-2 up.
  7. Congrats to the Melges 24s and even the J-29 guys who didn't do too poorly. I am sure a drink was had at the Pink Pony. Guess no one died!
  8. Based on this, can you imagine the chatter that must have happened when the first Moore 24, SC27, or Olson 30 went to Hawaii back in the 70s? The horror!
  9. Yes. I'm pretty convinced that anyone trying to make a case against the more modern designs being unsafe because they lack lifelines somewhere, or a pulpit, or something like that, just hasn't done much heavy weather sailing in this (or likely any) design. A small boat in a storm bobs around like a cork and people will get seasick, but it's not any less safe than anything else. All the people harping on "the boat MUST make it to the Island, regardless of the conditions encountered!!" are bringing their own belief systems and why they do the race, not necessarily the same as those that sail a boat like the Melges 24. These lake races have an extra benefit: you really CAN bail out pretty much whenever you want to, more or less. Consider something a bit more serious like a Hawaii race, where you generally would never ever want to go back to San Francisco once out there, when something goes wrong, and there is no where else to go. The only option is to fail downwind all the way to Hawaii, doing 3 knots with your improvised rudder or whatever. That's why that race in particular puts so much stress on the spare rudder systems. Is some ways this here discussion is the same argument that was going on RORC before and after Fastnet 79, when people thought the "new, more modern, ULDB designs" like the J/30 (!!cough!!) were also unsafe. The J/30 was shown to get through Fastnet '79 without too much trouble. These days we consider that a medium displacement boat, as much lighter things have come along and gone, and also done just fine.
  10. The M24 doesn't have sealed compartments, so -while it's made of foam core - if it is swamped it would probably go down. That said, even though I've been on my side for almost 10 minutes once, I've never seen the boat take on a drop of water while pinned on it's side. The boat DOES take on water when huge waves roll over the entire deck and down the companionway while really sending it hard downwind. Which, for offshore sailing, you'd either have boards in place or modify with a small doghouse of some sort.
  11. Getting some like minded boats and going as a one design class is a good suggestion. Not sure you'd get the numbers but you never know! Someone else commented that my initial post was not a ringing endorsement. It wasn't meant to be one. I would have a hard time committing to a 200 mile sprint on a M24, knowing what I know, but it IS possible to do safely. (But I'd rather get an F31 tri and just go way the hell faster!)
  12. I read this thread with interest. I own a melges 24, I've done this course, and I've done a lot of offshore sailing. I know a lot of people who have taken Moore 24s and SC27s across the ocean, and no one questions the seaworthiness of these designs. Some of the Melges boats have done longer races, but they are not designed for this. I actually like the J29 as a sailboat, it's a great boat. A couple of things come to mind. The melges 24 is a safe, sound boat. For those of you who haven't sailed on one, you just have to go out on one, round up a bunch of times, and see. Its really trivial to sail and manage with 2 people on deck. It's got so little loads on it, in all points of sail, that generally nothing bad happens even with sustained winds. The control systems are trivial. The boat, as a design, has probably seen more hard racing miles than most designs ever will, without incident, except in 25+ . Depending on the forecast, doing the Mac could be a super duper fun time. Could also suck. It wont really matter. if the conditions don't work out, the boat will hit the first available haul out, get on the trailer in all of 10 min, and get trailered home. No big deal. Can't do that with most other designs easily, as you can't trailer haul them out of the water. The melges 24 is not a comfortable boat, so it will really depend on the forecast. There is enough stowage to carry food and water and sleeping bags. What more do you need? While 2 people can actually snooze down below, it's not remotely habitable like a SC27 or a J29. But for a sprint, it probably wont matter. If there is any kind of wind @13+ from behind, the boat will eat up miles like few others and will probably be many hours ahead. The melges 24 does not come with lights. So for this course I would expect real running lights/tricolor to be installed, and radar reflector, Lifesling, and all that stuff. Some owners do these mods from time to time to sail races like this. Its not that much work. In 1D configuration, the melges 24 cannot shorten sail, however in my experience that hasn't been so bad within a certain wind range, say, to 25: if the wind really comes up, on the nose, and the 24 is still racing the 24 will suffer upwind while the J29 will just motor upwind. But no one will be at risk on the 24, it just wont go to weather well at all and the crew will be very tired and probably very seasick. Depending on the wave state, it could be pretty slow going. There is certainly an easy way to shorten sail: put a reef point into an older Melges main so the reef is at the hounds, and do a little trickery with the main halyard and have a extra long outhaul and a dogbone around the boom or some such, and reducing sail is certainly possible if not downright easy. For a trip like this it might make sense, as the boat to weather in 20 wouldn't require any depowering in this config. No one will use "the head" on the M24, even it it comes with one. Buckets are far easier to use and clean, and can be discarded at the end of the race. No one needs a bow pulpit, because no one ever goes on the bow. The boat has roller furling and no jib to change. Either the jib is deployed and you are sailing, or you are not, and going home. Would I do this course on a M24? Probably not, but it would depend on the forecast. I'd do 100+ mile coastal races on a 24 with the right forecast, expecting not to sleep much, though.
  13. "would welcome the big boat fleet back with open arms..." "...at or around the rating hit that was given to them...." ..."take it or leave it"... The big boats have moved on, and continue to race IRC, so I guess you have your answer. wrt this discussion at the end of the day only Westerly and Strum on the BC side have to pony up an IRC rating cert, which they did. For one-off outings like Van Isle, no one cares that much because the peeps do that race more for the adventure and experience than perhaps the pickle dish. 'nuff said about that.
  14. time correction factor
  15. Would love to see a level-set happen. Would also love to see people complain a lot less about ratings and sail a lot more, especially on other boats where they might learn something. There is a lot of pride at stake in sailboat racing but it would help ALOT of people if they went and sailed one design for a while, and realized they didn't know as much as they think they do. A lot of the PHRF boats out there I've seen recently racing are not very-well-handled boats. In a few recent low key races I participated in, I saw a lot of ... early season rust maybe? People not setting kites and just going for a cruise with their reefed main and storm jib on the race track. A lot of other boats just don't sail very often, and are usually caught trying to do basic stuff with disastrous results. That's great and all, until those race results are used to jigger a rating. The rating assumes you are a well prepared boat and you're actually *racing*. So in that vein, I'd say a component to any ratings adjustment appeal should be a minimum number of completed races or race days per year, in addition to whatever you are asking the adjustment for. If you want a rating credit for <insert monkeyjiggyhere>, you need to sail a minimum of N events/days and some results before its granted. Maybe even with the configuration in question. I believe this would encourage participation and discourage endless gift rating jiggering. To one person's comment: I think far more cross-border pollination happens than most people realize, because (where PHRF is concerned) while the *boats* in question are obviously racing just a small subset of events, Oregon Offshore, South Straits, Swiftsure, and WIRW - The *sailors* in question are frequently sailing one design in many different PNW venues - English Bay, Nanaimo, Victoria, Seattle, the Gorge, you name it. Those sailors are also usually heavily involved in a variety of boats, and have a lot of input and influence, and know a lot more about the regional sailing than most people tied to a single boat or single location do.