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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Maine Sail

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About Maine Sail

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  1. You're going to want to add some stiff end plates in there otherwise it will just bulge between the two compression points. Mastervolt learned this the hard way.. (grin) These cells were only compressed near the top and very bottom and charged at 14.6V / 3.65 VPC, per Mastervolt's manual, which was WRONG, dead & murdered bank wrong......
  2. You'll need cell compression, I use 1/4" or thicker aluminum end plates with draw bars made of SS threaded rod, and a solid mounting system to the vessel. IMHO an LFP bank should not be able to move at all once bolted to the vessel. Don't forget a cover, you don't want to know what happens when you drop a wrench across LFP terminals...
  3. I have been doing LFP for quite a while and I don't recall anyone ever referring to Genasun or Mastervolt as a "drop-in" and certainly not myself... Anyone who has ever installed a Genasun or Mastervolt system would never consider it a "drop-in" replacement for lead acid... The drop-ins started showing up in about 2010-2011 so they are not really all that new at all. They've even been around long enough for some of them to earn a BBB rating of "F"... (wink) Genasun was so far from "drop-in" ....
  4. Genasun was NEVER a "drop-in" battery...... A "drop-in LFP" is a sealed battery with no external communication with outside charge sources. There are basically three categories I drop LFP into: Factory Integrated Lithium Battery - A lithium battery designed to work as a factory integrated system including charge sources System Integrated Lithium Battery- A lithium battery system with the capability of system interaction with external charge sources or vessel loads. Drop-In Lithium Battery - A self-contained lithium battery with an integral BMS and contactor/s, lacking system communication with external charge sources or vessel loads. Factory Integrated Systems - Victron & Mastervolt are about as close as it gets. System Integrated Lithium System - Lithionics ex: Genasun - Designed to work with third party products and to be able to communicate with them Drop-In Lithium - I refuse to mention names because some folks will be dumb enough to go and buy it... (grin)
  5. This is incorrect. I have stopped "long distance consults" because of HUMANS. If I can't lay my hands on it then I am no longer designing or consulting on it. It has zero to do with the technology and everything to do with far too many humans not being ready for it & instead choosing to cut corners on design etc.. While there are a few guys I have done consulting for who simply get it, & Stan Honey would be one of those, it's the 98% who don't get it that are the problem.. This design and consult change was not because of the technology but because I found most humans claiming they were ready for it, and who claimed they had the skills, were not ready for it and did not have the skills.
  6. Unless you're like the 80 or more individuals who've hacked an LFP installation then emailed me after ruing their very expensive LFP banks & asking me how to fix them? Many of these individuals got even less life than a cheap automotive grade battery because they treated the LFP installation like it was a lead acid battery. The danger in LFP on boats is still humans and their inability & refusal to recognize the differences between lead and Li... Sure, if done correctly they have excellent cycle life but do it wrong and they are very easily destroyed. Heck even companies with real engineers designing the product, such as Mastervolt, have had some major LFP f-ups. Just sitting there at a 100% full charge, no charger even connected, just open circuit voltage / resting, prismatic cells can loose on the order of 10-12% per year $$$$$. This loss is with zero cycling and zero charging.. Sad part is I still get folks emailing me almost EVERY DAY asking me what the "float voltage" of their new Alibaba Li cells should be.... D'oh... Asking what the float voltage of LFP should be is like asking what brand of orange juice you should run in your cars gas tank, Tropicana or Minute Maid. Both questions are equally as stupid.. Maine Sail I think that level of enquiry you get is going to increase exponentially thanks to the practises of many LFP providers and discount battery houses. Have a look at this SmartBattery crowds’ FAQ section. http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-marine-batteries.php How do I change my batteries to Lithium? -After you take out your old batteries, place our batteries in the same way. You can use the same cables to reconnect into the Smart Battery. How do I charge a Lithium battery? -Most alternators will sufficiently charge Smart Battery lithium ion technology. -A standard battery charger will charge Smart Battery lithium ion technology due to our advanced built in Battery Management System. Internal Features -Low Voltage Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects at 8V. -Over Voltage Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects at 15.8V They didn’t add the rider your battery is probably already a doorstop when these protection limits are reached. This tier of LFP sellers are doing to LFP exactly what their predecessors did to GEL batteries. I have seen ZERO evidence the "Drop in" guys are actually doing anything on their own other than perhaps specifying relay ratings and perhaps cell brand inside the box.. They have big glossy web sites and appear to be simply slapping stickers on Chinese made LFP batteries. They appear to be 100% clueless about the actual science of LiFePO4 cells. Yes, I have had a few emails regarding destroyed drop-ins and owner complaints of zero back up under warranty. The voltages from above also make no sense at all, if in-fact the cells in the drop-in are LFP. LFP cells whether cylindrical or prismatic are considered a 3.2V "nominal" cells and normally rest at about 3.32V - 3.35V+/- at close to 100% SOC. This makes for a typical resting voltage, of a four cell LFP bank, approx 13.35V. Once under load (using 0.075C here or 7.5A for a 100Ah battery) the battery will cross 13.200V mark at about the 98-99% SOC point. The voltage quickly stabilizes and the voltage difference between 98-99% SOC to 75% SOC, under the same 0.075C load, is just .077V. The battery crosses the 75% mark at 13.123V. At the 50% SOC point the battery is at 13.005V at the same discharge load. By the time the battery crosses the 25% SOC point it is at 12.818V. At 0% SOC based on "face value rating" the battery is at 12.325V. 100% SOC Resting = 13.35 V or 3.337 VPC 98% SOC (-.075C) = 13.200 V or 3.300 VPC 75% SOC (-.075C) = 13.123 V or 3.281 VPC 50% SOC (-.075C) = 13.005 V or 3.251 VPC 25% SOC (-.075C) = 12.818 V or 3.205 VPC 0% SOC (-.075C) = 12.325 V or 3.081 VPC At this discharge rate (30A for a 400Ah bank) this very healthy 7 year old, 400Ah rated LFP battery delivered 432.1Ah's and finished the test at 12.122V or 3.03VPC before cutting off at 2.99VPC. This is what a healthy, properly charged LFP battery looks like at 7 years old and cycle # 772...
  7. Unless you're like the 80 or more individuals who've hacked an LFP installation then emailed me after ruing their very expensive LFP banks & asking me how to fix them? Many of these individuals got even less life than a cheap automotive grade battery because they treated the LFP installation like it was a lead acid battery. The danger in LFP on boats is still humans and their inability & refusal to recognize the differences between lead and Li... Sure, if done correctly they have excellent cycle life but do it wrong and they are very easily destroyed. Heck even companies with real engineers designing the product, such as Mastervolt, have had some major LFP f-ups. Just sitting there at a 100% full charge, no charger even connected, just open circuit voltage / resting, prismatic cells can loose on the order of 10-12% per year $$$$$. This loss is with zero cycling and zero charging.. Sad part is I still get folks emailing me almost EVERY DAY asking me what the "float voltage" of their new Alibaba Li cells should be.... D'oh... Asking what the float voltage of LFP should be is like asking what brand of orange juice you should run in your cars gas tank, Tropicana or Minute Maid. Both questions are equally as stupid..
  8. Amen! I suspect the big guns are just waiting out the patent and refuse to pay Mukesh's pipe dream valuation..
  9. Mukesh, last I knew, is building the plastic components at his factory in India, cases, covers, handles etc. but the plate, grid, plate forming and everything else is done right here in the US. Problems have been associated with the parts supplied to the Peoria facility by Mukesh's other factories..
  10. 12 weeks, if they are lucky. This is a tremendous technology but you're right, the Indian owner is murdering the business every step of the way. I won't even tell you the lead times I was just discussing two hours ago, with the US marine distributor, not good to say the least.. I am just getting ready to email waiting customers to tell them they won't be likely seeing Firefly's until this boating season is over... The technology is in high demand, the production is small and all done by just a few guys, and they simply can't keep up. Very, very frustrating to say the least.
  11. I'm all about the crimp and solder. Leaves no room for any moisture to build up inside the connection. I've seen enough battery cables turn to dust with just a crimp. --Matt That's because most people refuse to buy the proper crimp tools and prefer a hammer and screw driver or Vise-Grips.. A properly made battery lug crimp leaves no room for moisture and no room for solder to wick into it. If you are doing crimp & solder then this means you need to because your crimp tooling is simply inadequate. If solder will flow into the crimped area of a crimped battery lug, it has not been properly crimped. A proper lug crimp compresses the lugs 360 degree circumference, just like a rigging swage, and makes it physically smaller. A good lug crimp does not simply put a dent or dimple in it. EPDM jacketed welding cable was common from almost all the Taiwanese builders and far too many American builders too, right up through the 80's and early 90's. Still does not hold up, on a boat, like PVC does, especially in a bilge or engine space. There is such a thing as UL PVC jacketed welding cable but it almost always costs more than a good quality UL1426 tinned marine wire. Heck at the price I sell UL1426 marine battery cable to my customers for, welding cable has a tough time even coming close to beating a marine cable in price..
  12. Keep in mind that the only Times Microwave LMR you want to use on a boat would be the LMR Ultra-Flex. This means either LMR-400-UF or LMR-240-UF (Ultra-Flex). I would strongly urge against using standard LMR 400 or 240 or you'll run a risk of a fractured center conductor. Regular LMR-400 has great specs but it uses a solid (not stranded) copper coated aluminum center conductor and regular LMR-240 has a solid copper center conductor (not stranded). Ultra-Flex uses stranded copper center conductors which are considerably less prone to fracturing.. Also please stop using those crappy Shakespeare PL-259's they are one of the worst products ever foisted upon the marine market... Other than bad boatyard or DIY PL-259 solder jobs the Shakespeare PL-259 has one of the highest failure rates for VHF trouble calls I experience. The again I probably made about 2.5K last year replacing them with real PL-259's, so on second thought, go ahead and use them... (wink)
  13. This is direct from Westerbeke / Universal. It was sent to one of my customers who was complaining that I swapped out his "correct" 2 Micron filter with a 10 micron. This after he had admittedly been through 2 lift pumps and had his 2 micron filters clog and shut the engine down twice in three years. "XXXX, A 2 micron primary is too aggressive. We find that using a very aggressive filter in the primary fuel filter / water separator can lead to the need for more frequent element replacements. It also puts excessive stress on the electric lift pump mounted on the engine. This can lead to reduced electric lift pump life and potentially unexpected engine run related or shut down problems due to the element becoming clogged or lift pump failure. As a general rule for filter selection you can use a 10 micron primary filter in instances where the run of line between the fuel tank and the filter is less than 10 feet and a 30 micron filter if the run is longer than 10 feet. Sincerely, Westerbeke Corporation" There is also this from a Westerbeke Corp TSB (The all caps is them not me): "WESTERBEKE CORPORATION STILL RECOMMENDS THE INSTALLATION OF A PRIMARY FILTER/WATER SEPARATOR BETWEEN THE FUEL TANK AND THE ENGINE. THE FILTER USED IN THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE A MICRON RATING SMALLER THAN 10 MICRONS." FWIW the spin-on engine mounted "guard filter" for the Universal is 24-25 micron rated.
  14. Port panels in parallel into own controller and starboard panels in parallel into their own controller as well.. I have data logged this exact scenario on numerous boats and parallel has beat series every time..
  15. I also use the Junsi Cell Log 8S's..(8S does data logging 8M does not) I even have one on my own bank. I use the Junsi for visual cell monitoring use & I have about 4 or 5 of them around the shop. For the money they are great little devices, and by little I mean little, as in you'll need glasses to read it. They are however tough to keep calibrated and they do tend to have some calibration drift over time. The log view software is also a real PITA but it does work.. I re-calibrate mine about 3-4 times a year and each time I do it I find it has again drifted away from calibration. I also invested in the JST terminals and molded plugs to make up my own harnesses, to avoid butt splicing the flimsy harness that comes with them. Great tool at a great price but I would personally not rely on one for my banks BMS. It is a great ad on to a BMS thought for visual or data logged cell voltage tracking. Do be sure to calibrate it though before use. Where do you obtain the JST Terminals and plugs, Main Sail? Pretty sure I got them a Newark.. I already had crimp tooling so the shipping was more than the parts...