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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

Maine Sail

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About Maine Sail

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  1. Unless you're like the 80 or more individuals who've hacked an LFP installation then emailed me after ruing their very expensive LFP banks & asking me how to fix them? Many of these individuals got even less life than a cheap automotive grade battery because they treated the LFP installation like it was a lead acid battery. The danger in LFP on boats is still humans and their inability & refusal to recognize the differences between lead and Li... Sure, if done correctly they have excellent cycle life but do it wrong and they are very easily destroyed. Heck even companies with real engineers designing the product, such as Mastervolt, have had some major LFP f-ups. Just sitting there at a 100% full charge, no charger even connected, just open circuit voltage / resting, prismatic cells can loose on the order of 10-12% per year $$$$$. This loss is with zero cycling and zero charging.. Sad part is I still get folks emailing me almost EVERY DAY asking me what the "float voltage" of their new Alibaba Li cells should be.... D'oh... Asking what the float voltage of LFP should be is like asking what brand of orange juice you should run in your cars gas tank, Tropicana or Minute Maid. Both questions are equally as stupid.. Maine Sail I think that level of enquiry you get is going to increase exponentially thanks to the practises of many LFP providers and discount battery houses. Have a look at this SmartBattery crowds’ FAQ section. http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-marine-batteries.php How do I change my batteries to Lithium? -After you take out your old batteries, place our batteries in the same way. You can use the same cables to reconnect into the Smart Battery. How do I charge a Lithium battery? -Most alternators will sufficiently charge Smart Battery lithium ion technology. -A standard battery charger will charge Smart Battery lithium ion technology due to our advanced built in Battery Management System. Internal Features -Low Voltage Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects at 8V. -Over Voltage Protection Switch - Automatically disconnects at 15.8V They didn’t add the rider your battery is probably already a doorstop when these protection limits are reached. This tier of LFP sellers are doing to LFP exactly what their predecessors did to GEL batteries. I have seen ZERO evidence the "Drop in" guys are actually doing anything on their own other than perhaps specifying relay ratings and perhaps cell brand inside the box.. They have big glossy web sites and appear to be simply slapping stickers on Chinese made LFP batteries. They appear to be 100% clueless about the actual science of LiFePO4 cells. Yes, I have had a few emails regarding destroyed drop-ins and owner complaints of zero back up under warranty. The voltages from above also make no sense at all, if in-fact the cells in the drop-in are LFP. LFP cells whether cylindrical or prismatic are considered a 3.2V "nominal" cells and normally rest at about 3.32V - 3.35V+/- at close to 100% SOC. This makes for a typical resting voltage, of a four cell LFP bank, approx 13.35V. Once under load (using 0.075C here or 7.5A for a 100Ah battery) the battery will cross 13.200V mark at about the 98-99% SOC point. The voltage quickly stabilizes and the voltage difference between 98-99% SOC to 75% SOC, under the same 0.075C load, is just .077V. The battery crosses the 75% mark at 13.123V. At the 50% SOC point the battery is at 13.005V at the same discharge load. By the time the battery crosses the 25% SOC point it is at 12.818V. At 0% SOC based on "face value rating" the battery is at 12.325V. 100% SOC Resting = 13.35 V or 3.337 VPC 98% SOC (-.075C) = 13.200 V or 3.300 VPC 75% SOC (-.075C) = 13.123 V or 3.281 VPC 50% SOC (-.075C) = 13.005 V or 3.251 VPC 25% SOC (-.075C) = 12.818 V or 3.205 VPC 0% SOC (-.075C) = 12.325 V or 3.081 VPC At this discharge rate (30A for a 400Ah bank) this very healthy 7 year old, 400Ah rated LFP battery delivered 432.1Ah's and finished the test at 12.122V or 3.03VPC before cutting off at 2.99VPC. This is what a healthy, properly charged LFP battery looks like at 7 years old and cycle # 772...
  2. Unless you're like the 80 or more individuals who've hacked an LFP installation then emailed me after ruing their very expensive LFP banks & asking me how to fix them? Many of these individuals got even less life than a cheap automotive grade battery because they treated the LFP installation like it was a lead acid battery. The danger in LFP on boats is still humans and their inability & refusal to recognize the differences between lead and Li... Sure, if done correctly they have excellent cycle life but do it wrong and they are very easily destroyed. Heck even companies with real engineers designing the product, such as Mastervolt, have had some major LFP f-ups. Just sitting there at a 100% full charge, no charger even connected, just open circuit voltage / resting, prismatic cells can loose on the order of 10-12% per year $$$$$. This loss is with zero cycling and zero charging.. Sad part is I still get folks emailing me almost EVERY DAY asking me what the "float voltage" of their new Alibaba Li cells should be.... D'oh... Asking what the float voltage of LFP should be is like asking what brand of orange juice you should run in your cars gas tank, Tropicana or Minute Maid. Both questions are equally as stupid..
  3. Amen! I suspect the big guns are just waiting out the patent and refuse to pay Mukesh's pipe dream valuation..
  4. Mukesh, last I knew, is building the plastic components at his factory in India, cases, covers, handles etc. but the plate, grid, plate forming and everything else is done right here in the US. Problems have been associated with the parts supplied to the Peoria facility by Mukesh's other factories..
  5. 12 weeks, if they are lucky. This is a tremendous technology but you're right, the Indian owner is murdering the business every step of the way. I won't even tell you the lead times I was just discussing two hours ago, with the US marine distributor, not good to say the least.. I am just getting ready to email waiting customers to tell them they won't be likely seeing Firefly's until this boating season is over... The technology is in high demand, the production is small and all done by just a few guys, and they simply can't keep up. Very, very frustrating to say the least.
  6. I'm all about the crimp and solder. Leaves no room for any moisture to build up inside the connection. I've seen enough battery cables turn to dust with just a crimp. --Matt That's because most people refuse to buy the proper crimp tools and prefer a hammer and screw driver or Vise-Grips.. A properly made battery lug crimp leaves no room for moisture and no room for solder to wick into it. If you are doing crimp & solder then this means you need to because your crimp tooling is simply inadequate. If solder will flow into the crimped area of a crimped battery lug, it has not been properly crimped. A proper lug crimp compresses the lugs 360 degree circumference, just like a rigging swage, and makes it physically smaller. A good lug crimp does not simply put a dent or dimple in it. EPDM jacketed welding cable was common from almost all the Taiwanese builders and far too many American builders too, right up through the 80's and early 90's. Still does not hold up, on a boat, like PVC does, especially in a bilge or engine space. There is such a thing as UL PVC jacketed welding cable but it almost always costs more than a good quality UL1426 tinned marine wire. Heck at the price I sell UL1426 marine battery cable to my customers for, welding cable has a tough time even coming close to beating a marine cable in price..
  7. Keep in mind that the only Times Microwave LMR you want to use on a boat would be the LMR Ultra-Flex. This means either LMR-400-UF or LMR-240-UF (Ultra-Flex). I would strongly urge against using standard LMR 400 or 240 or you'll run a risk of a fractured center conductor. Regular LMR-400 has great specs but it uses a solid (not stranded) copper coated aluminum center conductor and regular LMR-240 has a solid copper center conductor (not stranded). Ultra-Flex uses stranded copper center conductors which are considerably less prone to fracturing.. Also please stop using those crappy Shakespeare PL-259's they are one of the worst products ever foisted upon the marine market... Other than bad boatyard or DIY PL-259 solder jobs the Shakespeare PL-259 has one of the highest failure rates for VHF trouble calls I experience. The again I probably made about 2.5K last year replacing them with real PL-259's, so on second thought, go ahead and use them... (wink)
  8. This is direct from Westerbeke / Universal. It was sent to one of my customers who was complaining that I swapped out his "correct" 2 Micron filter with a 10 micron. This after he had admittedly been through 2 lift pumps and had his 2 micron filters clog and shut the engine down twice in three years. "XXXX, A 2 micron primary is too aggressive. We find that using a very aggressive filter in the primary fuel filter / water separator can lead to the need for more frequent element replacements. It also puts excessive stress on the electric lift pump mounted on the engine. This can lead to reduced electric lift pump life and potentially unexpected engine run related or shut down problems due to the element becoming clogged or lift pump failure. As a general rule for filter selection you can use a 10 micron primary filter in instances where the run of line between the fuel tank and the filter is less than 10 feet and a 30 micron filter if the run is longer than 10 feet. Sincerely, Westerbeke Corporation" There is also this from a Westerbeke Corp TSB (The all caps is them not me): "WESTERBEKE CORPORATION STILL RECOMMENDS THE INSTALLATION OF A PRIMARY FILTER/WATER SEPARATOR BETWEEN THE FUEL TANK AND THE ENGINE. THE FILTER USED IN THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE A MICRON RATING SMALLER THAN 10 MICRONS." FWIW the spin-on engine mounted "guard filter" for the Universal is 24-25 micron rated.
  9. Port panels in parallel into own controller and starboard panels in parallel into their own controller as well.. I have data logged this exact scenario on numerous boats and parallel has beat series every time..
  10. I also use the Junsi Cell Log 8S's..(8S does data logging 8M does not) I even have one on my own bank. I use the Junsi for visual cell monitoring use & I have about 4 or 5 of them around the shop. For the money they are great little devices, and by little I mean little, as in you'll need glasses to read it. They are however tough to keep calibrated and they do tend to have some calibration drift over time. The log view software is also a real PITA but it does work.. I re-calibrate mine about 3-4 times a year and each time I do it I find it has again drifted away from calibration. I also invested in the JST terminals and molded plugs to make up my own harnesses, to avoid butt splicing the flimsy harness that comes with them. Great tool at a great price but I would personally not rely on one for my banks BMS. It is a great ad on to a BMS thought for visual or data logged cell voltage tracking. Do be sure to calibrate it though before use. Where do you obtain the JST Terminals and plugs, Main Sail? Pretty sure I got them a Newark.. I already had crimp tooling so the shipping was more than the parts...
  11. At one point in time Balmar and E-Maax had an agreement that E-Maax would buy Balmar regs and Balmar got to fill out their line up with other than Yanmar pulley kits from E-Maax (they already owned Alt -Mount which did all the Yanmar kits). Apparently E-Maax stepped in the dog-shit with Balmar. This possibly occurred by EM launching their "AT" series alternators to the point where even the part numbers were identical eg: Voyager AT-165. Balmar severed ties with them a couple of years ago. E-Maax's pulley kits are actually in direct patent infringement on the CDI/Balmar/Alt-Mount patent.. Balmar, now owned by CDI, manufactures their own pulley kits..
  12. I also use the Junsi Cell Log 8S's..(8S does data logging 8M does not) I even have one on my own bank. I use the Junsi for visual cell monitoring use & I have about 4 or 5 of them around the shop. For the money they are great little devices, and by little I mean little, as in you'll need glasses to read it. They are however tough to keep calibrated and they do tend to have some calibration drift over time. The log view software is also a real PITA but it does work.. I re-calibrate mine about 3-4 times a year and each time I do it I find it has again drifted away from calibration. I also invested in the JST terminals and molded plugs to make up my own harnesses, to avoid butt splicing the flimsy harness that comes with them. Great tool at a great price but I would personally not rely on one for my banks BMS. It is a great ad on to a BMS thought for visual or data logged cell voltage tracking. Do be sure to calibrate it though before use.
  13. Absolutely it is the load that matters. What that load is is irrelevant. My only point about Li is that the alt almost never catches a break. Even with AGM it will eventually catch a break once absorption voltage has been attained.. One of my alt builders is the same one "A" Power uses (shhh don't tell anyone ). I spec mine a bit better and it is a damn good small case alt for an old style 10DN single fan unit.. "A" Power makes wildly unrealistic claims about performance, I will not. They simply will not run wide open for long periods without damage. I have had to rebuild numerous "A" Power alts, this one included. It was run into a large 800Ah AGM bank with no temp compensation or current limiting. The windings were smoked, as can be seen. It got so hot the owner claims the belt was melted/stuck to the pulley.. I rebuilt it and then limited its output it by about 25A. It now works fine and has not exceeded 235F. Prior to belt manager that alt would surpass 290-300F in about 20-25 minutes.. Here is a smoked Electro-Maax CS130D based alt getting all fixed up. Once again massive bank, deep discharges, no temp or current limiting, and an owner who did not know how to set it up properly. Bought a 100A alt and expected 100A... Not gonna happen with a small case alt... In my testing I have found case color is pretty much irrelevant with the exception that the paint supposedly can, in a very minor way, hold some heat in. I used to believe the paint issue pointed out by competitors was more so. Once I began testing alts I found the differences really pretty unidentifiable in any scientific manner of measurement. That said I have tested my own 10DN (a slightly tweaked version of the "A" Power") against the Balmar 6 and the Balmar runs cooler. My DF CS130D based alt runs very close to the 6 series, so close at to be barely discernible/uniddentifiable temp differences, my case is bare aluminum the Balmar 6 powder coated.. Still none of these alts should be expected to produce full "rated" output for hours on end and I would never tell anyone they could. If you want 100A out of a small case alt you buy a 120-140A alt and derate it. Anyone telling you you'll get 100A out of a 100A alt for long duration's is simply full of bovine dung.. Some of us in the industry are at least honest about that in regards to small case alts... FWIW, and in full disclosure, I am a Balmar dealer and have been an Electro-Maax dealer. I suppose I technically still am but ethics issues & numerous reader complaints about customer service, caused me to move away from them. I am also a dealer for Mark's alts. I see very little difference in warranty or failures between all of them, mine included. I suppose if all the complaints I've received on my Electro-Maax article are true, then E-Maax takes the win for poorest reliability. I would not sit here and try and tell anyone my CMI CS130D based alt is better than a Balmar 6 Series because they are so similar in design and build specs it would not be true. Sure the CMI alt is slightly less money but performance wise they are very, very similar. I actually make a few % more when I sell one of my own branded alts but then I am the tech guy and with one support phone call my few% is gone.. These days I move most customers to Mark Grasser or Balmar products because both of them stand behind the product very well and do excellent tech support.. I have sold piles of Balmar alts and regulators and have very, very few warranty issues. When I do have issues they handle it quickly and they answer the phone. Had a bad Smart Gauge two weeks ago. It took less than 50 seconds to call Karla, she responded with the RMA via email in a few minutes and the warranty was handled. Customer had his replacement in about 3 days. Again, if you expect to run any small case alt, at full bore for long periods, it is not going to have a very long life. And here is the replacement Mastervolt/Leece-Neville large frame alt on a very expensive cat.. Why was it replaced? The first alt physically caught fire from being run at full bore into a Mastervolt LFP system. It had no alt temp protection at all. Heck this replacement still had no alt temp protection. Perhaps they did not learn from the first alternator fire. D'oh.... Large frame alts are also not immune from being driven too hard & for too long even brands such as Mastervolt....
  14. Can you name for us any small case alt maker that can be run at 100% of its rating all day long with no current or temp limiting? If you want that type of performance from any alternator you need a large frame, high RPM speed, cooling piped in and in reality external rectification. This costs huge money and often requires some very hefty modification to the engine. Heck I've seen Li burn up large frame non-temp protected alts in a matter of weeks. These are alts the manufacture says you can't burn up. Perhaps on a school bus you can't, with the self protective internal regulator, but with external regulation and no temp or current limiting protection you certainly can.......... Here are a bunch of small case "marine" alts that can't be run at 100% all day long, including my own, which I am brutally honest about..... Amp-Tech - Fail - 10DN Based Ample Power - Fail - 10DN Based Powermax - Fail -10DN Based Electro-Maax - Fail - CS-130D Based Balmar 6 - Fail - CS130D Based Mark Grasser - Fail - CS130D Based Balmar AT - Fail - Denso Based Electro-Maax AT - Fail - Denso Based Compass Marine DF - Fail - CS130D Based Compass Marine 10 - Fail - 10DN Based Any good installer realizes that any small case application needs to be current limited in order to drive a large load for a long duration. Expecting the "rating" out of any small case alt is just silly. In order to even get close you'll need to remove the rectification and do it externally. Even then you won't get the full output rating of the small case alt but you'll come a lot closer.. Ratings are just that "ratings" and none of the above makers suggest these are "constant duty" alts at full output..
  15. Absolutely.. Buying AGM's before addressing the charge system often results in a good dent to the wallet... The automotive based stock Hitachi alts really are a pathetic waste of copper especially in a deep cycling application with expensive batteries..