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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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  1. Good post. But the inherent conflict is that a low-ride, low-performance keelboat does not achieve the stated goal of 40 minute races (and apologies if I got the time target from the protocol wrong) ... a 40-minute race in low-performance keelboats would have to be on an INCREDIBLY short course, and then you have removed the opportunity to match race. So they MUST be thinking of a high-performance high-speed boat. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Both BA and the NYYC teams have mentioned, in one form or another, that the design brief from what they know so far will be for a monohull that the world has never before seen.
  2. The LV (not the AC) WS

    Well, I seem to have hit a nerve. Yikes. Look, I'm not saying LE is without flaws, or even without serious flaws. Nor am I saying that he's a flag-waving stars-and-stripes-forever-singing "U-S-A"-chanting patriot. What I am saying is that as far as countries are concerned, he's been pretty clear that his preferred nations are Japan, Israel, and the US. I'm also saying that he's been pretty clear that he loves tennis and sailing and intends to use part of his fortune to support them. And I'm also pointing out that his most recent business victory (NetSuite+Oracle) was a big one and a logical point for him to step aside a bit from the business. So how much of a stretch would it be to believe that he intends to pour dollars beyond what most of us will make in our lifetimes into his vision for the future of sailing? I say that's not a difficult mental leap, and further I say that no matter how you felt about his connection to the AC that you should, as a sailor and as an enthusiast, hope he succeeds.
  3. The LV (not the AC) WS

    I think people may be misreading LE and his motivations. Is he arrogant? Sure. But petty, spiteful, and jealous? Not as much. A shrink might say not at all, that he could not have achieved what he has in life by acting through pettiness or jealousy. If you want to understand where this LVWS might be headed, I think you first need to (try) to get inside Larry's head. He's ~73 years old. His final major business objective was to get NetSuite acquired by Oracle. Done. He has little else to prove at the office. He's worth north of $50b; his salary alone is $50mm - I bet his total income is near $1bn ANNUALLY. He's in legacy-setting mode with a SHITLOAD of money with which to shape his legacy. Sure, he'll give away a ton of it, but helping 3rd-world farmers is a Bill Gates thing, not a Larry Ellison thing. He loves being an American, he loves the Bay Area, he loves Japanese culture and Japan, and he loves sailing. So where does that leave him? I'd say it makes total sense that it leaves him in the perfect position to be the France/Ecclestone of sailing and establish a new racing circuit that leverages technology and speed, that he intends to make it the premier circuit that attracts viewers from well outside the current group of sailing enthusiasts. And let us not forget the RedBull/Youth aspect to the equation. I'll wager he plans to set up a varsity (LVWS) and junior-varsity (RedBull) circuit at the same time. And I bet he'll be incorporating the US olympic sailing effort as part of all of this. When it comes time for him to depart this earth, he would then have left behind a powerhouse US Olympic team, a legitimate youth circuit to absorb former Olympians, and the premier professional sail racing circuit self sustained by sponsorships across the globe. As sailing enthusiasts, I think we should be hoping that the above is some rough facsimile of his plans, and I think we should be hoping he achieves it. As Renny said, we as sailors and fans have nothing to lose if he wants to spend part of his fortune on the future of our sport, and a lot to gain. Fwiw. 2N
  4. Oracle Team USA

    DB is spoken for already ...
  5. Oracle Team USA

    Spot on Ren. VERY little downside for us fans. If it works, significant upside. And if it turns into a complete wreck, upside for those who are into schadenfreude. Ecclesone, France; France, Ecclestone ... I suppose it depends on what kind of fast cars you like to watch
  6. Oracle Team USA

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: this was the plan all along. Losing to the only team that didn't sign the London Agreement wasn't part of the plan, but the "World Series" was always the plan and now it will go forward with the LV cup as the ultimate goal instead of the AC. Make no mistake: LE intends to make the AC into an irrelevant side show. The pitch is this, or something like this: for $10mm a year you can participate in an ongoing, vibrant, fast-paced event guaranteed (he will say) to get attention for your sponsor. Or you can hope the Volvo comes back, or you can go with an event with regional appeal like something only followed in France, or you can spend $150mm for the right to have a shot at racing in the middle of night in winter in another hemisphere which your sponsors don't care about. I'm not saying he can pull it off. I am saying that he intends to be the Bill France of fast boat racing in his "golden years." And I am sure he's also thinking of boxing what with all its different associations ... one day, one of "his" teams may win the AC and then it gets reunited with the "World Series". Bottom line: don't EVER underestimate Larry. He doesn't lose.
  7. Team NYYC

    So what are the challenges that team Quantum/BellaMente/NYYC (or whatever their formal name becomes), and how do they overcome them: 1. Great sailors who meet the nationality/residency requirements. It seems probable to me that TH can hire a great team. Unclear to me how a green card or visa holder would get counted in the math of it all, but that seems like a problem that can be overcome. And it sure would be nice if there were a larger cadre of recent Olympic winners to choose from. But this challenge should be surmountable. 2. High quality, reputable construction facility(s). Not an issue in the US of A. 3. Year-round practice in-country? Yes, if they need it, no problem. 4. The best designers. Since nationality does not apply to the design team, the best designers are likely to go to the highest bidders. Which brings up the next point: 5. Having enough money. So again, the prospect of having a respectable team comes down to money. And I suspect you are right that this round is not about winning for the US team, but rather about laying the groundwork to win next cycle. We will have a major clue as to whether it will be respectable or not when the design team is announced.
  8. It's an interesting question. Totally academic, but interesting. The deed is silent on a lot of things. One thing it is clear on is: "In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup." Can either team just walk away? The deed has no such provision. I suppose if the Italians want to walk, the Kiwis could sail some "races" alone and therefore retain the cup. But there is no provision for what would happen if the defender wants to walk. There is a long section of what happens should the defender be dissolved, but nothing about walking away. The Italians could not just sail the race alone since that would require the Kiwis to select the course which, presumably, they would not do if they were wanting to walk away from the whole thing. The Kiwis could not just give the cup to the Italians as there would have been no races sailed. Another club could easily lob in a challenge to RNYS and then pull a Larry and go to court. The Kiwis really do have to live up to the terms and conditions of the deed now that they have accepted a challenge, or they would be in breach of their contract with GGYC and, I suppose, GGYC could sue to get the cup back. Wouldn't that be a thing?!?
  9. Team NYYC

    Right. At this point, talk is (relatively) cheap. There's no boat design brief to work off of, there's some uncertainty as to the location and therefore date of the match, there are a lot of details to be filled in on the "Prada Cup," and most importantly the entry fee is not yet due. At most, the expense is in nailing down lead talent. One could probably spend no more than $1,000,000 between now and Christmas and not fall (any further) behind the curve. When the dollars get real, expect some to beg off. I put Camas in that group. Probably Alinghi too. The real question will be, of the remaining interested teams, who can raise the necessary funds to win, and who can't. And of those who can't, who will go ahead with the campaign just to stay in the game (LRBAR maybe) and who might stay in recognizing that this round is just for learning more and preparing for the next. I hate to be Nelly Negative, but didn't Dalton say he thinks it will take $150 million for a winning campaign in his interview with Clean? That's a shitload of money. Not even the NYYC group is guaranteed of getting there.
  10. Less than 10k for a 50 year old pirate ship. Plus a whole lot of expense thereafter! Unless you happen to be in the need of the perfect vessel for a viking funeral, in which case you are in luck. http://www.ebay.com/itm/182803920227
  11. AC 36 Protocol

    ah yes: "...the Deed expressly requires one specific attribute, namely, that the club have an annual regatta. [...] To ascertain that intent, the court construes the phrase at issue - 'having for its annual regatta on the sea or arm of the sea' -by affording it its plain and natural meaning (Mercury Buy, 76 NY2d at 261). That phrase is plainly understood to mean that it is an on-going activity; the activity has taken place and is continuing. It implies that the organization has had one or more regattas in the past, and will continue to have them in the future."
  12. Teams?

    Which is why I'm sticking to my 3-4 teams estimate. Despite Clean's note about the money/backing existing, I don't see why you'd do a "basic" campaign in this day and age where being competitive will take so much more. Unless you don't care about winning. Clean, the implied over/under between your number (8 to 9) and mine (3 to 4) is 6. Let's see if we can remember this post when the regatta begins and come back to it...
  13. Teams?

    I hope you are right, but I think you are wildly optimistic. ITALY: I can see how maybe there is a second challenger, but a third? At $100m+ a pop? With LR already in and controlling so many of the strings? I don't buy it until an announcement is made. USA: The one "confirmed" you discuss is one that has, at best, confirmed their interest. You say they have $40m lined up. Great. Where's the rest? Or are they planning on being AC36's version of Team France? Again, until there is an announcement it is nothing more than some very wealthy people talking seriously about spending a lot of dollars - it is not yet confirmed. At best, at this point, the DeVos challenge should be rated "possible." And beyond them, a second or third challenge? From whom? Who is even reserving talented sailors yet? ENGLAND: Sir Ben has "confirmed" his intent. But he hasn't got enough money yet. Until they put ink on paper they are no more than "likely." AUSSIE: Totally agreed it makes sense, but no one has confirmed anything. At best, and Aussie challenge is "possible," like the DeVos challenge. CHINA: Lots of money, not many sailors. Has to be considered less likely than DeVos or Australian entry. FRANCE: The team is willing but doesn't have money. And how do they raise significantly more than they did for AC35 without Groupama? Rank them as "unlikely." SWEDEN: The statement out of Artemis was quite negative. Rank them as "unlikely" as well. HOLLAND: First I've heard of it. Do you know anything here? ALINGHI: Their statement was also quite negative. You say 6 definite, 2 highly likely, and 2 likely. (Applying probabilities to your totals, I put 8 or 9 on the starting line) I see it as 2 definitely, 1 likely, 3 possible (2nd Italian, DeVos, Aussie), and about a half dozen circling around looking at the prices on the menu. Applying probabilities to my totals, I put 3 or 4 on the starting line. I hope I'm wrong. You have more inside dope that I do, but keep in mind the motivations of those telling you they are definitely in: they have to line up talent and if they say they are just looking then they risk losing the good talent to other, more definitive teams. It doesn't cost them a thing to talk a big game now and back away later, which is exactly what I believe will happen.
  14. Teams?

    "The wait until next March for full details of the new class gives ETNZ and Luna Rossa a big head start in recruiting designers and refining design tools. 'The agreement with the challenger of record and the defender puts them in a pretty nice position. They know what the rule is going to be and can work towards it,' comments Ben Ainslie. “'It’s not ideal from any challengers perspective because we want to be on a level playing field.'" http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/110264-110264 This is as concise an assessment on the advantage ENTZ and LR have as I think we will see. It really means that the other interested teams will have to get comfortable with entering in full knowledge of this disadvantage. So why would you enter despite this disadvantage? I think there are a couple of possible reasons: 1. You have enough designers and sailors with enough experience that you think you can overcome this disadvantage. LRBAR may fall in this camp. 2. You view this as the first cycle of a multi-cycle effort to win the cup. An Aussie or new American challenge may fall into this camp. 3. You don't care. Given the dollars at stake, I doubt anyone falls into this camp.
  15. Bye bye Artemis Racing

    Also teams that don't have year-round appropriate waters for practice. See: Alinghi and Artemis. And I suppose any team that may have been thinking of challenging from Canada, Russia, Germany, etc.