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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.


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  1. This nice explanation of the 'overlap' of responsibility explains the need to tweak the rules. These boats don't react like the ones the rules were written for. Therefore, the rules should be adjusted to the behavior of the boats in question.
  2. Oh.. maybe because keeping people alive is a bit more important that keeping your entertainment from being dull. And if impact is all that keeps it from being dull for you... then.... you figure it out
  3. Just a guess, but I'd bet TJ is probably ok. BAR hit them with the round of the hull. Soft and as thin as possible so they got destroyed. TJ's impact point was the gunwale equivalent, plus the foil box. Both of these are hardened relative to the hull skin. Same can't be said if the crew had gotten into the impact equation. Of cours, not sure, but if asked to bet, I'd say they are much liklier to be out tomorrow.
  4. I couldn't agree more, and I believe that if they don't adjust the rules, we will see it again... hopefully with the same amount of good luck that made this only fatal to some carbon fiber. The maneuvers by both were totally normal for sailboats. Aggressive - yes. after all, its the AC. But if these AC boats are allowed to be that close, then bad shit is eventually going to happen. It could be accomplished as simply as a rule defining contact as getting within say 1 or 2 meters of the other boat. Then set the boat up with the things they have in the bumpers of cars to sense the approaching object. If the alarm goes off, the umpire sees it on his displays, and penalizes just as if it were 'real' contact. To not do so risks peoples lives unnecessarily. This is especially important in situations like the TNZ crash where the hull that hit was the one farthest from the helmsman, and shrouded by the sails. This would force some conservatism without changing the game.
  5. Perhaps the answer is that the definition of "Room to keep clear" needs to be specified as a certain minimum for these boats as you never know what can happen with a little gust, or whatever that can make the move sideways. Something! because there are Six guys on soft bank that were very close to dead. 10 more degrees of turn or Foil shears off or TJ drops it hull lower. ETC.... Within the bad luck, they were incredibly lucky. incredibly
  6. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/watch-he-did-again-ben-ainslie-slams-into-dean-barkers-japan-in-pre-race-blunder-his-bar-ends-up-top-boat?auto=5450840465001
  7. This picture shows how close we got to an indefinite postponement. If it weren't for TJ's foil blocking the sweep of the deck by BAR's hull, there would be fatalities i reckon. Ben is a good sailor, just not good enough to account for all the uncertainties that these boats add to the equation. Rules will have to change is say.
  8. I'll clarify, its not really the speed that makes me say this. Its the unpredictability of the boat's behavior. In my Finn, I knew exactly what it was going to do if i jammed the rudder. The stern would kick out and hit someone. The greatest uncertainty was if a wave moved me a few inches one way or the other. And the consequences were 'damn, a protest'. Here, because of the many variables at play, the boat popped out of the water, it slid sideways and there rudders were not effective because there was no wetted surface. This combination may be a 'perfect storm' so to speak, but I'm saying, when there is that degree of uncertainty, the boats can't be allowed to play russian roulette with the crew's lives. The picture of the crash from the front is outright scary.
  9. The comment about Finns and lasers is spot on. When we were out there, the "good" sailors had ugly boats. There was simply tons of rubbing in that racing. Those that didn't engage didn't win. That being said, in this day of AC50s and especially with the potential of side slip it does seem to me that there should be some changes to the rules. While in this case, it is clear Barker came in totally legally albeit aggressively, it seems to me that the rules need to be changed to make things such that you can't get within a certain distance of the other boat for any reason. In this case I don't think he should have been allowed to swing in under and within a meter of BAR. I know this would change the game and I know I need to think about this more, but this interactions of boats was so close to fatal that I think rules should be tweaked to lower the chance of this. The hulls pop up and slide and take off so quickly that I don't think it is reasonable that people get within 1meter of another boat. They are just too unpredictable, and someone could pay the ultimate price.
  10. They could get pro cyclists I'm sure. The question is whether they have duties other than turning pedals. If they do, and they are control related, then I doubt you teach anyone to make that control professional grade in time. Even "Sea legs" counts in this. You don't want one of them running off the trampoline like many of the sailors have... and they are more used to the dynamics. I'm not sure if this is the case, but I think TNZ has two that do nothing but turn pedals, and two that have controls duties. But need someone who knows to confirm that. If that's the case, then the real Hybrid they are talking about could be 2 cyclors and two pedestal grinders? I doubt it is just having one in the back.
  11. The discussion about who is copying who is BS. Nobody who knows the AC doesn't know that the Swedes tried it. The conceptual breakthrough here was both how to get the cyclors to fit into the rule limited size cockpits, and how to manage the controls with the crew in a completely different setup. And how to move them around and get them in place in the right order. TNZ made the compromises and got the breakthrough. Clearly, their 'trick' is plainly visible to someone who wrestled with the tradeoffs... like oracle. To not see that they might copy the 'Solution' that TNZ found is simply naive. And to say that the inspiration was the swedes is Trumpian alternative facts. Related, but irrelevant. Good on TNZ for coming up with a solution. Oracle would be stupid to not copy it if they have the time. Mechanically they might have time, but leg conditioning wise, unless they started a long time ago, I think they are toast.
  12. TNZ not signing was absolutely brilliant negotiating. It was the equivalent of holding out owning the last house on a block that a developer wants to build an apartment building on. By doing this, they have all the benefits of the agreement, and total latitude to change it as they wish. The reason is that all those that signed it have no incentive to not let them 'in' if they change their minds. In fact, they would have a strong incentive to make whatever adjustments they wanted in order to get in. This way the signors investments would be protected, and TNZ would get the adjustments they wanted. Whatever, TNZ grabbed sac. Jimmy is bitching now because he's worried his balls might soon start to hurt.
  13. My guess is that there is a tradeoff that isn't fully obvious. In particular, the size of the cockpits are rules restricted. The cyclors are on top of each other in a way that I can see making people prematurely discard the idea. When pedaling, they literally put their faces in the small of the back of the guy in front, and his handlebar well ahead of the guys butt. Obviously it can be done as TNZ demonstrates, but it is the sort of thing that when you look at accepted spacings for Tandems and then see the space available in a boat, you might discard prematurely. This is a very difficult cognitive bias to overcome. It is just so easy to take simple measurements and say "doesn't fit". The also probably had to make logistical accomdodations. I would bet they have to get in in a particular order which complicates thing further. But that is conjecture. I think it speaks really well of TNZ that they overcame this bias and were able to think outside the box of accepted measurements.
  14. I haven't seen them so can't say. But if they are training with rotating pedals, I would bet almost any amount of money that that is what is in the boat... for all the muscle dynamics reasons I was mentioning earlier.
  15. NCS and Matt17 are right. There are 'dead spot' issues with pedal setups (as there are with grinding stations). But these are easy to engineer around. Eliptical chainrings are the traditional solution, but in a hydraulic pump setup, it would be even easier by changing the relative length of the piston links in the different orientations around the circle. Whatever the solution, I can't imagine that TNZ didn't think about that issue in pursuit of the well-understood need to get cyclists 'spinning'. The fact that the watt bikes aren't engineered like that is unlikely to be indicative of what is going on in the boat. The watt bike when they show the vids of them at exhaustion clearly is stumping them at top dead center, but this is equivalent to lugging an engine. You would never do this if you were trying to go fast. You would shift gears... either to one low enough to make the dead spot not matter, or would have some leverage accommodation like elliptical chainrings, if you really needed to operate at a low cadence high pressure rate.