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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.


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  1. Most excellent build. The big issue with twin main foils as I see it is induced drag at takeoff. You really want maximum span there. With two foils you get two more tip vortices than needed, and much more drag when you can least afford it. The strut drag is significant, but with two struts the main foil can be so much higher aspect that it outweighs the loss from the struts, and the struts can be much smaller also. I suspect we may see twin strut moths at some point with the Clive system if the fairing drag can be worked out.
  2. Sorry about that. That carriage was a bit of a compromise between Gaudi-esque style, reduce/reuse/recycle, and death needles.
  3. If Riou really lost some important sails just after the start, the new foiler must really be a dog to have only finished 30 miles ahead. Those foils look like they have a ton of induced drag. Avg speed was 12 knots, which is not where you want to be trying to lift a keel boat onto foils. I'd say PRB is looking quite strong for the Vendee.
  4. GA was doing 15-16 upwind at one point. Definitely foiling. I don't think they were on a reach as they were not laying the windward mark. Looks like they take off at 12 knots boat speed or thereabouts. Would have been fascinating to have a moth on the course today.
  5. On the c-class health issue, to me the AC has borrowed far more from the C-class than the c has borrowed from the AC. Hell the AC boats are getting smaller all the time; Pretty soon they will be C cats even without intervention. And with that the hegemony of the C will be complete. What took those AC guys so long to see the light?
  6. I am a but surprised others did not copy groupama more carefully at this event, in terms of design. Not to say that would be easy to do. I would be very interested to see a moth line up against Groupama around a course in say 12 knots. I think these wings are enough less draggy and better shaped that they sail a lot closer to the wind on all points of sail. Yes GA may not fack or foil gybe, but how long will that remain the case?
  7. This discussion came up in the Moth worlds thread. I'd much rather have the virtual eye style tracking than some shaky cam, we're not really sure who's winning or what's happening, "live" feed. With the digital stuff you can see the whole race course, see who's going to which side, know for sure who's who (none of this "That's X coming through for the win! Not wait it's someone else!") etc, etc. Both would be ideal, but if it's one or the other actual data wins for me every time. I'll accept it's just my opinion. Personally I get more out of a good trac trac GPS feed than anything else on the internet, with the exception of good interviews done on shore. I do wish this little AC data were available on a viewer and not just a video of a viewer, but beggars can't be choosers. Live video to me seems like the dinosaur, unless you have drones following leaders around the course and the superimposed sport vision animated laylines to go with it, it just gets a bit tiring.
  8. Opinions are like noses. The internet is a giant relief valve so people without the 3.5 large can feel like we are important, too. I matter, dammit! Kind of a genius move by Darpa, from a Marxian standpoint. There are so many more boring things to spend that kind of coin on. It takes some balls to put the details here for everyone to carp at. Say thanks and nice boat, or move on.
  9. Blunted you are correct. They spent the week testing different foil. I saw the boat coming in with a port foil that looked like the one they are using to race and a starboard one that was about a foot longer in span (uptip part). I believe they have tested 3 or 4 different foil designs... In all cases they were going blisteringly fast. Though what impressed me the most today was their gybing angles... VMG must have been insane! It's like the thing is generating it's own wind! Are they able to do foiling gybes?
  10. I don't think they use a wand-looks like uptip foils to me: http://www.norgador.com/ IMG_1851.jpg Here's a pic of them sailing today. it's like a moth, controlled by two wands and I suspect that the entire foil moves. Yes that's correct they have a very long wand (i guess to générateur enough hinge moment) to move the entité foil AoA. I think they also have a setup so that when they lift the windward foil, the want gets held in the il position so as to not create any drag. According to Jean-Pierre (helm), foiling upwind was very easy today but downwind they were struggling... My intuition (without looking at it in détails or putting too much thought into it) is that at higher speed the système is struggling and the réponse time is too low to work. I have heard some comment as well saying at times the wand gets submerged or creates enough of a wake that it doesn't feel the ride height well enough. Hard to tell really! Yes one has to think that system through very carefully to keep the wand loading (and drag) down. Foiling upwind is always easy, because you can slow down quickly by pinching, and overall speed differences are less. Offwind is always the test. The battle is won or lost in load modeling the design and in executing it with very little friction.
  11. Depends on conditions probably. Having a gennaker for light air must be fast. One of the advantages of the C must be weight however. Smaller foils, less crew, virtuous design cycle, etc. Probably more foil iterations than a 45F also, and potentially better control system. If 19 is upwind then they are certainly foiling up and down. I only saw 12-14 in the first race though.
  12. It would be kind of sad if a team of professional full time sailors and designers could not show up at an otherwise non-corporate event and clean up all the hardware. It must be a bit depressing when they mention how many different sets of foils they have tried and how much they have learned. Looks like they are canting the foils outward to give the lifting portion more windward bite. This is fundamentally unstable, but they either pinch or have some way to control it upwind. They are doing 12-14kts upwind I saw at one point. The angle looks impressive also. Downwind they were 28 plus. Impressive stuff.
  13. OK starting line is being set. Windward mark being set
  14. Scheduled start is now. Doesn't look like they are lining up yet though; everybody ripping around the course on the live feed. Is there a twitter feed anywhere?
  15. Yes the length of those foils would seem to be great for twisting the entire hull off of the beams. No surprise about the springiness; getting that stiff without being heavy means the heads have to be pretty fancy on those boards (not to mention the hulls, beams and deck to beam joints). You essentially have a huge clothespin type affair athwartships with a sliding angle adjustment at the most highly loaded part. Bold move. Bon chance with everything and thanks for the updates!