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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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Everything posted by RobG

  1. About 38% more ($1110 vs $1530 ex GST), which includes the lever vang kit so not really a big difference. In the overall cost of a boat, likely not significant. The issue of multiple sets of gear is not simple. Restricting boats to one set of foils per regatta may reduce the amount of good second hand gear coming onto the market. It might also reduce the size of the market and hence competition, pushing up prices. It may also affect innovation as the top competitors will tend to go for safe choices (well known, well established manufacturers), making it harder for new players and innovative concepts to get their gear sailed by one of the top guys. No matter how good your gear, if you can't sail it well enough to impress, it's not going to be adopted. Everyone wants the stuff on the winning boats, which (in a fleet full of Olympic, World and AC champions) is what the top guys are using. It's a similar problem with longevity, I don't think anyone considers it when buying. Current boats are all about the same, so building a longer lasting boat isn't a selling point if it's a fraction heavier or slower than it could be.
  2. I guess the UI will be like a reversing sensor: a string of lights and beeper. The closer you get, the more lights and faster the beep until a solid beep means "do your penalty". No need for umpires, if computers can run simulations as accurately as has been claimed, they should be able to make rule decisions with far greater precision than humans. They should also be able to give evasive action advice to ensure no contact, so the infringed boat doesn't have to push it to make the breach obvious.

    No tears here, as long as the challengers know the rules up front it's not for met to complain on their behalf. I just think the restrictions are unnecessary and may throttle innovation. If two boat testing isn't worth it, there's no need to ban it. Teams will spend whatever funds they can talk sponsors into coughing up, and presumably will spend it where they think they'll get the best return. It seems illogical for a rule to limit physical but not virtual assets, and to prescribe a key aspect of a team's development methodology. Just because teams are doing better now with simulation and one boat than they were with legacy two boat development methodologies doesn't mean there isn't a better two boat methodology (say with simulation and real-time learning) that delivers even better results in less time and maybe lower overall cost. That option is simply ruled out. There may be all sorts of benefits as spinoffs that will never be discovered (or not) because that path wasn't allowed to be followed. BTW, the boats don't need to be identical, there just needs to be sufficient data on each to be able to calibrate one against the other (like PHRF on steroids). ;-)
  4. The crew will be in the boat and only need to move a few metres, not running across flat decks or tramps like the AC50s (or SuperFoilers). It's not like the foredeck crew will actually be on the foredeck, or crossing in front of the mast. Though if someone does go over the side from in front of the main foils there's a very good chance they'll be hit by the foil or strut, more likely the foil. And it will not break away like a SuperFoiler rudder might.

    Cry me a river… NZ are writing the rules, are you telling me they've deliberately dealt themselves a bad hand? They could race with the others until the actual CSS. They could allow two boat testing with the first boat, which apparently will be worth zero once the second boat hits the water—except for NZ. Everyone will have backup crews, but only NZ can keep both sets of crew training right up to the finals. Only NZ can train against a precise datum and get data from both boats to use in optimisations, the others can never do that. Only NZ can have a robot first boat to train both crews in the second boat against, the others must divide training between crews so backup crew training takes away from main crew training. And they can never sail against each other in AC75s. Poor bastards NZ. Whether that's enough to tilt the balance one way or the other is yet to be seen, but it's a very different situation for challengers and defenders that leaves it wide open to criticism. No doubt fuel for the "Team NZ" thread to going for another 4 years after this cycle… ;-)

    So challengers are limited to boat–on–boat testing during official races and practices, and only against other challengers (who may not wish to cooperate), while the NZ team can sail its robot's arse off in two boat testing for the duration of the CSS? The Shaky Isles' version of a level playing field.

    Oh the irony… a poor attempt at pointing out the amateur reporting effort (no reflection on @barfy though). Where "right out of the box" was after several year's development with a pretty successful AC72 first. Though I think you're right about the AC75, it will foil if built to the spec (which might be challenging). The issue is whether it will meet the goals of lower cost and more relevance (to sailors?) compared to an AC50. Opinion seems to be "no", but I guess we'll have to wait and see, not only for the final rules, but for a couple to be built and put through their paces. It seems a no brainer that there will be drop–in kits to fully automate everything for the purpose of testing and training, that may be the biggest takeaway from the program. Imagine two boat testing where the boats are talking directly to each other to work out optimal settings—the world of AI comes to sailing… They'll likely get more useful information from a single 5 minute reach than a month of manual testing.

    Will they be anything like the AC72 Class rules that are due at the same time?
  9. Super foiled configuration

    …and forklifts steer from the back. Doesn't make it sensible in general though.
  10. Super foiled configuration

    Foiling has been a functional reality for decades, it hasn't changed the look of the boats much. The SuperFoiler is something of an exception, but they'd likely be much easier to sail if they were more like Ultim trimarans where all hulls are (pretty much) the same length. "Foil on each corner" configurations have been discussed quite a bit. They seem attractive from a stability perspective, but the current popular configuration of the main foil providing lift and rudder pitch control continues to be preferred, likely because it's fast and works very well in the same way it works for aircraft.
  11. Cheap, Fast Dinghy

    There are lots of boats that might suit, from Flying 11 (you might grow out of that pretty quickly though) to 29er and 13' skiff. Even a 125 or i420 might be a lot of fun with the spinnaker and single trapeze. It really depends on what you can find and who you have to help you learn to sail it. So firstly, just go looking for smaller double handed skiffs in your price range. Keep an open mind about what you want and that the resale value won't be much. Almost by definition, fast boats are difficult to sail. Don't let that put you off, it just means it's much better if you can find someone to help you learn to sail it that isn't your dad or a teacher (but they'll do as a last resort). Speed is relative anyway, I had great fun in a Vagabond one day (bathtub with sail) in 25+kn. Getting it to plane (and listening to the boat complain bitterly about it!) was great. Just get out there and have fun in whatever you end up sailing. ;-)
  12. Reasonableness is in the eye of the measurer. ;-) While the ETNZ system may have been at the extreme of "manual input", it would take very careful wording to allow conventional instruments that are used in decision making but not allow "follow the bouncing ball" type systems. It seems from other discussions (and I really don't want to start them again here) that all that was required was an air gap between the device displaying data and the sailor–operated device making the adjustment. That seems to be an easily enforceable rule, anything more complex might accidentally include things like tell-tales and wind instruments. Who hasn't adjusted a sheet or helm based on whether the windward or leeward jib luff tell–tales break up/down? It's equivalent to the argument that bungie cord is "stored energy" (no, no, don't start that one again either, it's just an example of a contentious issue that nit pickers love to pick at).
  13. Team Australia

    I can see your confusion if you think: "…I drop in to see if there's any news on an Australian team" means "…you seem to be saying you aren't interested in the topic of AC and Australia challenging" It shows a problem with comprehension. Also: "…following a thread specifically about said topic and complaining it's off-topic." is indeed confusing: it's the posts that are off topic, not the thread. Let me try again: This thread is about a possible Australian AC team for the next AC. My belief is that such a team will not materialise for AC36, but I'm happy to be proven wrong so keep an eye out for news. On seeing updates, I think "maybe there's been a change to prove me wrong…", but alas, it's just more irrelevant rehashing of ancient history that should have been posted elsewhere, mostly in threads I ignore.
  14. Team Australia

    I see this thread get new posts from time to time so I drop in to see if there's any news on an Australian team. But all I see are posts from a bunch of insufferable, self righteous kiwis who seem to have forgotten there is a Team NZ thread for them to publish their ravings in. There will be no Australian challenge because no Australian company in their right mind would sponsor a boat in an event that is about as relevant to sailing or ordinary Australians as the flying spaghetti monster is to religion. And no foreign company will sponsor an Australian challenge in the way the New Zealand team is sponsored by foreign companies. Even if "Team Australia" won, so what? It would have beaten a country whose only sporting claim to fame, in most people's minds, is rugby. And maybe netball. This thread died months ago. Please let it rest in peace.
  15. Team Australia

    No, just one–eyed. ;-)
  16. Those dumps to windward… lake sailing! Try to find some steady breeze. It seems to me that the UFO is narrower than a Moth (considering the extra wing width), so a bit harder to sail in some respects. Foiling in a Moth sitting in is much harder than sitting fully out on the wing bar, especially in shifty breeze.
  17. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    I think they raced in the 6 kn zone directly off the dinghy club, so very restricted for them too (and a lot of traffic to contend with). I didn't see the course but there were comments from parents and kids that the wing mark wasn't much of a reach. I can only guess that the SF course was where it was to keep the Deep Hole open for other boats and to keep a navigable channel from the eastern side of Crab Is through the Deep Hole to the western side of Wave Break Is. I've been in races there with 50 or so boats of various classes and 40' stink boats sailing right through the middle of the course and fleets, swilling their Chardonnay and yelling at anyone who might get in their way, I guess claiming right of way due to restricted manoeuvrability. Fuck wits, all of them.
  18. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    Anecdotal evidence is a good starting point, but without proper recording of incidents and research into causes it remains just that: anecdotal. WS seems to be making a start in that direction, but it will take years to collect sufficient data for any analysis to be meaningful. And it doesn't seem to be rigorous or thorough so may not carry much weight. It seems to me the issue is more about the greater speed of foilers rather than the foils per se. Eventually there will be decent body armour to prevent bruised ribs and limbs, but until then there will be injuries. Also, sailors are still coming to terms with sailing foilers, so there are more accidents due to inexperience. More anecdotes. My worst (most painful, most blood, almost longest to heal) injury was splitting a shin on the thwart of a 420, far worse than a similar injury I suffered a few years later from a side stay on a Moth (same shin). The three worst sailing accidents in the water I typically sail in over the last 5 years in did not involve foilers. I've sailed in 3 Moth Nationals, a Worlds and 4 State titles. I was one of the first to adopt a helmet (2011, but only when windy). The worst injury I know of in all those events was bruised ribs from hitting the water, where a body armour style PFD may have prevented the injury. Back on topic, the SuperFoilers appear to be very difficult to sail and may be prone to causing injury, however they are a very specialised class and will only ever be sailed by very experienced crew who know the risks and are best able to address them. Putting them on a very small course with hard boundaries, immoveable obstructions and challenging wind and tide conditions upped the ante considerably, but they got away with it. I hope next time the course is set further north in the Deep Hole rather than in the seaway, but there may have been factors that I'm not aware of for the choice of course location. The same goes for the port leeward gate, which did appear to be in the wrong place with regard to the nearby channel marker, but the PRO should be allowed to comment before everyone piles in. There are some here claiming close connections to the sailors and club, perhaps they can get a comment, even if it's "off the record"?
  19. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    "Buddy"? I guess you're referring to this. Seems to me it says far more about failures of trapeze systems than foils, and getting hit by a fixed or locked–down rudder is more serious than being hit by a kick–up rudder. Nothing peculiar to foilers. You made a claim about injuries and frequency being higher for foilers but haven't been able to substantiate it with fact, so I'll take it as opinion then.
  20. Mothquito

    A little outside the box, I wish them the best of luck!
  21. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    Obviously: "…we are seeing injuries and frequency of them like we have not seen before." I guess you have data for injuries across a number of high performance boats over a number of years to show that foilers have peculiar injuries and a higher rate of incidence than other boats.
  22. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    I bet they don't! They've left Pavement T–boning the start boat in the Day 2 highlights reel (arguably worse than picking up a mark), it's the stuff that keeps the hoi polloi interested! The top mark was in a diabolically difficult place, no surprise that boats had trouble or hooked up on it. Pavement caught one of the bottom marks on Day 2 also. The coverage really doesn't show just how small the race course was. Not only the tide, but the effect of the southern tip of Straddie on the breeze was messing things up as well. I think Nathan Outteridge summed it up pretty well: when there's plenty of space, no problem. But with a compressed field, difficult conditions and hard to sail boats, things will happen (which is probably exactly what the sponsors want, personal injuries excluded).
  23. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    Sorry, better link is the highlights:
  24. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    Start at 16:45. https://youtu.be/Sv4ZTbWxIxU?t=16m35s
  25. SuperFoiler Grand Prix 2018

    No, here's the incident is just after 1:04:45 in the live stream. Let the armchair experts go wild. ;-)