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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.


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  1. Perpetuating the thread drift: for an offshore cruising powerboat, why wouldn't a deep centerboard work to reduce rolling? I'm talking about a high aspect, maybe 9 or 10' deep CB. As long as you are moving at a pretty good clip, any rolling is resisted by the lift of the board, and if it is deep the leverage is high. If high aspect ratio any disruption to the accommodations could be minimized. It would fold into the trunk for thin water work. Has this been tried, and does it work? Second try on drift: for a smallish offshore PB, why not a powercat? Few seem to have been designed with this mission in mind, but it takes care of the rolling problem (or creates it, if you don't like multihull motion). It would be as safe as a sailing cat at sea. Or is the displacement required of the fuel too much for the idea?
  2. Of course, an average cruiser would consider a nice North cross cut sail to be good for 10 years or more. A radial cut should be good for more. Maybe a cruiser would consider a 3Di sail good for 6 years. Nevertheless is represents their lack of understanding of the customer. I get that it is marketing puffery, but still..... It could explain why sailmakers think having a laminate mildew to embarrassment in 2 years it considered acceptable to them and why "they don't have that problem anymore" - they consider its life to be 2 years.
  3. Should have said "high glass content" LOL. Using Marinetex of thickened West is fine for a minor cosmetic repair. When in doubt I use some glass, and it never hurts to do so as it helps to hold the filler together.
  4. Kind of what I thought. If you look at PET plastics (Dacron) and divide the tensile by the young's, about 2% looks like the permanent deformation point, and that is solid material - texile should be stretchier. Given that, and the fact that good warp oriented cloth has little crimp on the warp, you would expect the PE fiber content of Hydranet and the like to be carrying some load, particularly in higher wind/load ranges. This could easily explain the field experience of them lasting longer: when the dacron can no longer handle the load the much stiffer PE steps in and saves it. But I would love to see some tests on the textile tester showing exactly what happens. I assemble mine on the dock, zip it up in the stackpack, then sling it onto the boom using the spare halyard and mizzen staysail halyard. After some practice, I can do it by myself in about half a day. If even a minor powerboat wake starts rocking the boat during the process, things get unruly in a hurry. At sea you would find a way, but only if your life depended on it. And the idea of dragging it below and pushing it through a small sewing machine just ain't happenin'. 3 or 4 years (even 5) is ludicrous. OK if racing, when the object is to turn thousand dollar bills into 5 dollar trophies, this helps accelerate the process. But cruising, that makes sailing a nonstarter. When I built my boat, the sails cost about $25K, the engine $9K. The engine has a life of around 20 years or more. If I had to buy 5 sets of sails in that time, that's $125K (or more, due to inflation) spent on wind propulsion. Especially given that most cruising boats are really not used that much. A motor yacht would be far more economical, even with $4/gal diesel. I know this is the conclusion Dashew has come to. North is in the business of selling new sails, so I understand trying to do so. I also understand that due to the wide variability of boats, usage, crew experience, etc., they could not guarantee sails for very long. But to admit that the life of a sail in ordinary average use (probably 50 days a year max?) is 3 years - that is egregious. 3 years of continuous cruising with short layovers, OK, but that isn't what they mean, very few boats are used that way.
  5. My opinion also. Seems like everyplace is upwind of Grenada (and most of the charter operations are on the downwind side of the island). Not as many places to go compared to BVI/USVI and distances are longer. But I get the wish to explore new areas too.
  6. One way to do this is to wet out the cloth on a sheet of plastic. If you try to wet it out in place, overhead, you have the opportunity to get really messy. What I do is hold a piece of clear plastic sheet (thickish like 4 or 6 mill) up to the repair area, draw on it with a Sharpie outlining the area you want to cover. Now put a second sheet of plastic down on a flat surface. Prep the area to be patched. Mix up some epoxy, very roughly wet out the cloth (just pour some resin over it) on the plastic. Put the marked sheet of plastic over the top, and using a squeegee (dry) on top of the lot, push the resin around until the wet out is complete, and squeegee the excess away from the cloth to some spare area on the plastic. So far you haven't even gotten your hands sticky. Now lightly wet the surface you are going to stick the cloth too. Then take some scissors, cut through the 3 layers (plastic - fiberglass - plastic) along the Sharpie line. You did also put some alignment marks on it, right, if the repair is oddly shaped? Then peel the unmarked plastic side, stick the fiberglass to the surface to be repaired, squeege it down, then peel the last piece of plastic away. Touch up the edges if needed but don't go wild, the cloth/mat will start to fall apart and misbehave if you do. Now squeegee peel ply over the top, adding just a little resin to get it completely wet out. This is not necessary but holds the edges down and makes sanding out later much less work, once you start using it you won't work without it. You can wet out several layers at a time this way if needed (I've done as many as eight). Advantages are, since the cloth or mat is being wet and worked between layers of plastic, it doesn't go all funky on the edges. You can squeegee the cloth pretty dry (high resin content). Most of the handling is not wet, you are handling the dry outside of the plastic sheet. Mostly what gets stick is the scissors, you want to use metal ones (no plastic handles) and clean then in acetone immediately. You are not trying to make resin flow uphill when it really just wants to get into your hair and on your eyebrows. It works with pretty big pieces, but also particularly small pieces, which tend to fall apart worse. If you are wanting to taper a multi-layer layup, you can still use this method, but cut the glass first to the tapered layers, stack it up dry, pour resin on it, then cover and squeegee. You have to be a little careful working the squeegee to make sure things don't slide out of alignment.
  7. If it has 7mm carbon skins bonded together well at the joins, it should be structurally fine (the original after all had 7 mm white glass skins carrying the load). The steel will do nothing, though it may provide the easiest attachment for the bulb. I doubt the steel will carry any of the bending loads at all. If the steel is used to attach the bulb (or anything else) I would inspect it regularly. The inside will soon be saturated with sea water, and there is no way to check that since moisture meters will not read through carbon. Also if the steel exits the carbon for the bulb attachment, you want to somehow isolate it electrically from the carbon (a layer of white glass?) or the carbon will eat the steel being much more nobel.
  8. I would try a G10 backing plat using the guidelines mentioned above (1x bolt diameter thick, 5x - 10x bolt diameters in width). Bed underneath with thickened epoxy. If the unevenness under the deck is extreme, build something up out of G10 or grind a thicker piece to approximately match first. An additional problem you may have with this type of hardware is the deck surface might be cambered and the organizer will rock on it. My solution to this is to CNC machine a custom part that matches the deck - but I suppose not everyone has a CNC machine shop at their disposal . If not, then I would use a G10 pad matching the outline of the part, carving the underside by grinding and sanding to fit the deck. Paint it a suitable color and it will look good.
  9. A screw in batten end only works with tubes. right? Bainbridge makes some that slip on a round batten and create a straight flat end. Not in the sizes I needed though, and they are a rough bit of kit. But this is the modern age so I just printed my own in exactly the size I needed. On my boat the main is so big it isn't practical to carry a spare. And with no jib, it's all I've got. Well there is the mizzen. And the asym and the mizzen staysail, which I would figure out a way to fly like a jib if required. A bricked main will not fit through the companionway or the cockpit hatch on my boat. Bending it on is about a half day hard labor at the dock. Might be possible in a calm day at sea. That's why I say I have to repair in place. Through bolting might be the best solution for some high stress areas. Heck, maybe a 3D printer would be of more use than a sewing machine...
  10. Not sure I follow. My original setup was an overfold of webbing held by about 8" of 2" wide velcro, which was overlaid by another 2" going the other way, also 2" velcro. The battens had no trouble at all opening this up. The added lashings held but were obviously under a lot of stress. This can be seen by the amount of stretch and distortion in the nylon webbing (and the hole).
  11. The problem I had last year was the batten punched through the 2" heavy nylon webbing holding it in the pocket at the leach. I searched the boat and cut a piece of webbing from a spare harness, was able to hand sew that (with a sewing awl, took about 3 hours) good enough for another month. It is this sort of thing, heavily loaded webbing holding a batten or reefing ring or something like that on, which seems like a real challenge for 5200. A patch in the middle of the sail I can see. I have had a lot of trouble retaining the battens. They are big (longest one is 23' and is 7/8" solid putruded rod). It has been the upper ones that are most heavily loaded and keep coming out. Originally there was a double velcro closure, that didn't work well at all so we added lacing to it, that did work until the batten punched a hole in the webbing. A couple more about to go. This winter I had the loft sew the leach ends closed wrapped with heavy Dyneema webbing. I will insert the battens from the luff, and assembly the receptacle around them. I also 3D printed some proper batten ends to give the webbing a chance - Bainbridge makes some but they are kind of a joke. When one of the upper battens gets loose at the leach, it backs out of the receptacle, then moves forward overlapping the mast. It will then foul everything on the mast when you try to strike sail (good thing I don't have many things on the mast). Sewing the leach end closed also *should* eliminate the protrusions on the leach, which hang up on the lazyjacks trying to hoist sail. KDH those sails do look good. And they are white. I'm less concerned about the weight of the water too - more the ecosystem growth potential.
  12. I would think gluing something like batten retaining webbing on with 5200 would be unsuccessful. Not much area. On my boat hand sewing the bent on main is about the only practical solution. Removing it as sea, and getting somewhere to an onboard sewing machine (believe me, a Sailrite isn't going to do it) to repair something would only be attempted as a life or death matter. Which may speak to the practicality of this large a sail as much as anything. With a great deal of effort the sail can be flaked in a predicable pattern, so maybe special grommeted holes would work. If the major remaining drawback of 3Di is that it won't drain, adding a perforation step to the process would solve that once and for everyone. And it wouldn't matter how you flaked it. With the more or less solid material, could one just find the areas of concern, and drill or punch a 0.050 hole every 4"? If that results in a strength problem, then 3Di is a non-starter. Otherwise I could see green blotches surrounding each grommet since they won't drain perfectly. For Ellen, I'm sure the concern was more about the weight of the trapped water, and solution works.
  13. I cannot believe that 1% stretch in plastic sailcloth is destruction. These fibers are all pretty elastic. In any case exactly as Estarzinger points out, a figure like 1% has to be quite arbitrary, and cannot be the same for dacron, Spectra, PBO, carbon, kevlar, etc. So whoever said that was blowing smoke up your skirt. Also flutter and accelerated age testing can and should be done, it is common in other industries. I understand the crimp thing, and Hydranet and Fibercon products which are warp oriented claim to have low or no crimp in the warp. I also agree that the big difference may be radial construction, especially on a modern planform - surely crosscut cannot possibly do a good job of fiber stress alignment. The questions remain - does the PE content in these hybrid cloths carry any load, all the load, or some of the load when certain stretch levels are reached? Or is it simply a marketing gimmick? Sailing is rife with marketing gimmicks....I'm actually quite surprised someone hasn't introduced plain crosscut dacron sails with printing on them making them look like carbon string sails. There is a market for these I'm sure. Why not? We print teak grain on plastic these days. As they reportedly used to say at Carrol marine, just paint it black and the customer will think it's carbon - they don't know the difference. Now onto 3Di Dacron: It has been stated that they do not mold or mildew. If I understand the process correctly though, these sails will be water tight and will not dry, correct? I can easily collect 10 gallons of water in my main sitting in the cradle. It may sit there for months. Even with no glues to feed the biomass, there will be growth. Also, how is a repair done on these at sea (or in 3rd world port)? Let's say the batten pocket starts to come loose, or the batten retaining straps get damaged as happened to me just last season. I understood you cannot sew through them? If you can sew through them, should North add one additional process step, and punch pinholes every 2 inches or so to let them drain and dry? I am skeptical of 3Di, if only because of North's history, and their statement that these (experimental) sails are guaranteed for 1 year against manufacturing defects. For a racer, maybe 1 year is what they expect anyway and this is what North is used to. For a cruiser 1 year is laughable - in fact any guarantee is somewhat laughable as a substitute for bulletproof quality and reliability, because a cruiser is not going to be able to jump in his car and drive to a nearby North loft to take advantage. I may be 1000 miles offshore and don't have a car. Every year for at least 15, sailmakers have told me, "well we used to have a mildew problem with laminates but we don't anymore". Each year. For 15. And still they mildew. Like Trump, they believe what they say, and don't know they are lying. Evans has it exactly right that most sailmakers do not understand the cruising sailer and cruising market. Most of them have never been cruising. They understand racing and daysailing. OK that was a bit of a rambling rant but I do feel better
  14. I will attempt to contact one or both.
  15. If you need one for regulatory compliance, put up whatever you think looks stylish. There have been at least 4 tests on passive reflectors, basically they all agree that they all suck (unless quite large and quite expensive). So put it up for compliance and then pretend you are invisible to radar, because you probably are. If you want to be visible to radar, buy an active transponder like the Echomax. But for less money these days, an AIS class B is cheaper and is much more likely to set off the comic book alarms on a ship's bridge. There are still a lot of radars in use in the world though, so the active transponder may still have value. I have both, and have come to believe the AIS has much more utility in most situations.