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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About johnfreame

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  1. Moth Dinghys

    The foiling moth has as many 85-90kg sailors now as it does 65-70kg sailors. actually probably more. you need it to hold down 8.25 sqm of sail going upwind at 17-18 knots. I'm 65kg and far too small for my moth.
  2. UK Moth Nats

    the main reason the UK (and most of Europe) are all getting exocets is that they come ready to win. People who didn't do much in a mach 2 are getting their hands on an exocet and literally waltzing up the fleet to be 10-20 places higher. Simon sets them up perfectly and if you mess it up he will help you fix it. The amount of people who get in one and foil tack straight away having almost never done one in their mach 2 is ridiculous. They may have had a new mach 2 and never quite got the set up finished to the same standard. such as fairing and fitting the foils, eliminating play in the control systems, getting a bow sprit etc. There is also hardly anyone around in the UK with the knowledge to set up a mach 2 to the highest level (if there ever was) so it's even harder. It's quite strange but now after racing it's the mach 2 people desperately working away on their boats trying to figure out how to make it like an exocet whilst those guys just pull out the deck chairs and serve out the beers. 5 years ago the mach 2 sailors were doing that. A large proportion of people spending £20k plus on a boat have no interest in spending all their time dicking around with all that stuff which is why an exocet has a very long waiting list and appreciates once you drive it out the showroom. AC sailors will take it striahgt off you for well over £30k if the rumours are true. Old skool moth sailors might say it's change the class. It certainly shows a good sign of health.
  3. Waszp vs. Moth

    People with cockney accents don't sail. They can't afford it and they think it's for "posh c'nts". The above statement would be made in a cut glass Home Counties accent with silver spoons literally pooping out with each word. Actually it would probably be more like: "multi hulls are so vulgar, it looks like something the French would sail. We can't have that here, someone might go sailing! Pass the gin my dear chap"
  4. Moth can't lever arm on Mach 2

    I've just bought a cat boom to go bent. Apparently I need to cut the lever arm to a length of my choice. Any recommendations? It's on a normal Mach 2 with lowered mast stump. Any tips on best solution for attaching the hi load ring also gratefully received!
  5. 2017 Garda Moth worlds

    250 entries is my bet
  6. Amlin Bermuda moth regatta 2016

    saying a mach 2 can win a worlds out the box is totally misleading. Although it's great for re-sale value! But seriously, has anyone ever won without doing a lot of work on the foils first? Nowadays you need to do a ton of extra stuff like getting a kinked boom, a bowsprit, a telescopic adjustable wand that doesn't make you illegal when you shorten it etc etc etc. And then it's still harder to tack anyway. Most people who get an exocet after a mach 2 can't believe the difference. In big waves I've heard one guy say that going down wind is like being in an arm chair. the only reason mach 2 sales aren't dead is because of the exocet wait. People getting them now ordered them at the prizegiving at the worlds. The Hayling worlds! And as the guys above say the list ain't getting shorter and the results from this week show why.
  7. Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

    The foiling safety element is an interesting discussion. I agree it needs it's own thread but I'd wager if you looked at the stats of injuries in sailing per 100 sailing boats or injuries sailing per 100 foiling boats the stats would be interesting. Especially if you allowed for how nearly everyone who ever gets into a foiler is already in the upper tier of sailing ability and would almost never have an accident, let alone even a capsize, in a non-foiling boat. I am talking dinghies here, I wouldn't know to comment on that keel boat thingy above. Speaking from my own experience sailing several high performance boats I've only seen very few injuries sailing non-foilers. Personally, before sailing a moth, the only injury I've had has been either being smacked in the fast by my crews elbow or smacked in the face by a spinnaker pole, or the classic whack on the head from the boom. That hasn't happened in about 25 years. Since buying a moth I've done untold amounts of things to myself and seen many other world class sailors do the same. The shortlist, off the top of my head: - Black eye - Whiplash - Concussion - deep cuts from foils - strained/sprained joints all over the place - Whiplash (see if you can get that in a firefly) - Broken ribs - Broken fingers - Whiplash I've also been at an event where one moth took emergency action to avoid a capsizing I14. The moth's shroud took the T-foil rudder clean off, the skipper was protected by the shroud, and the boat didn't even come off the foil. -Whiplash Crashes definitely happen more often in the hands of far more capable sailors than average. Mass market foiling could be pretty terrifying if you think about it. Another point re-whiplash: In the UK you can get about £2-3,000 (or dollars, they're about the same nowadays) every time you sue after a car crash for whiplash. They are cutting down on it now as it got out of hand and in the UK we think people need to man up. Still, I could imagine the "I'll sue" culture in the states could make coming off the foils on a mass produced boat a healthy industry. How do you mitigate against that?
  8. ....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

    I heard that some of the more capable moth sailors had a go in the Wazsp at foiling week. They said it's slower and that foiling tacks will be unlikely. They certainly won't tack like an exocet that's for sure. I don't think it makes learning any different though. It won't affect gybing much. There's so much margin for error on gybes that even bad moths with bad sailors foil gybe in any weather. Besides, does the tacking difference matter? I think it might even be a real bonus for the class. A tack is still the same really, i.e. the technique if you can't foil, and the other wazsps will be tacking on the same foils so they can't foil either. In fact it will make the racing tighter between good sailors and bad. The biggest differentiator between a good moth sailor and an average one nowadays is the tacking. It makes much more difference than pure speed. (it's also a big difference between an exocet and a mach 2 but that's off-topic) It's funny but in most dinghies I always think a good tack vs bad might be a boat length or two and is more apparent between bad sailors and average. Average sailors to good might only lose half a length at most. The real difference between good and average is boat speed. Whereas in the moth, average sailors I think lose out more through tacking vs good sailors than they lose in speed. Although that could just be me. I can do a whole beat and only lose 50-100 metres in a straight line. But as soon as we tack I might as well go back to the bar. The point is the moth rewards time in the boat like no other boat. A moth sailor who spends 1 or two days a month sailing is unlikely to foil tack much. Some can but they're special. The guys that sail 3-5 days a week will be between half a leg and a whole leg ahead in a four leg race even if they go at the same speed. Remove the foiling tack and it makes the racing more appealing to the weekend warrior who gets down in the mouth when compared to the arms race of practice he can't compete with. If no one can foil tack then it still means good sailors benefit from good tacks but instead of taking out 50-100 metres on a good tack they only take out 20-30. Just a thought. Besides I still think the wazsp won't work but that's just me. I guess all the above has been said 20 times already and argued over 10 different ways. On the point about buying new wazsps vs 2nd hand mach2s...the £ vs the dollar isn't going to help anyone buy a new boat in the UK for sometime! It's making the uk production boats look very appealing. The 1st Voodoo is coming live this week and rumour is there's another one very close to a first launch as well.
  9. 2016 moth worlds: Hayama

    It's the right idea but finding people who can be arsed to police that is going to be pretty tough. As you say before Phil no one can be arsed to do anything for the class at present and enforcing rules is right at the bottom of the pile. Still, hopefully the principle will make it stick as it's definitely a problem.
  10. 2016 moth worlds: Hayama

    I'd say 200 boats is about the minimum number you can expect, don't you think. We got nearly a hundred for a euros in Holland LY
  11. 2016 moth worlds: Hayama

    The sail conversation is daft. The uk measures tried to stop the 16.1 style foot at 2012 but got voted down. Can open as Phil says. The amount of rig development Ashley and Lennon have been doing to win an amateur sailing event is obscene. I don't know whether it's making any difference but it's pretty demotivating to the rest of us. The compression strut removal can't have made much difference can it? The bow sprit is just a no brainer really but it doesn't fit into the Mach 2 production easily. That's my bet on why Amac is dragging his feet on it. I understand why though. If the wazsp became 1% of the laser he's onto a winner so I'd spend all my development resource on that too! Is there any update on how the Scott Babbage bowsprit is doing? Us European types without an Exocet on order (3 year wait last count despite increased production) need something!
  12. 2016 moth worlds: Hayama

    I think you have a point there Phil. The class isn't very healthy in that respect. Plenty of sailors but they have no interest in the class. They just want to race on foils. Amac might be onto something. That said I don't know of many classes that fare any better. I can think of several that survive on the back of the odd fanatic. Does anyone know what the weather is looking like for the rest of the week?
  13. 2016 moth worlds: Hayama

    The bow mech on the carbonix bow sprit is the same as the one people had before at the last worlds right? The one Scott helped make? Does it work ok? A number of uk boats got it and every one of them got rid of it as it didn't work. They kept jamming unless you stripped it right down and fully cleaned it after about every 2nd sail. Shame as they were great when new. Love that Amac has blagged the bowsprit in again. Sounds a bit like how the rules were "re-read" to allow the msl 16 through last time at Garda.
  14. Olympic selection issues

    i can never work out how people do the quote thing and i know I'm referencing way back but i only just got around to looking at this. If I could I'd paste in the bit about the England soccer team scraping into the world cup and being sent. The whole thing is a great example of emotional nationalistic chest thumping where everyone gets all excited about a team which, in the cold light of day, none of whom were good enough to get into any of the genuine contender teams. The team went, and immediately came home. In fact they got knocked out so fast I doubt the pilot of the plane even turned the engine off. Do we think the team gained anything from the experience other than learning to fear the media, fear the build up and the expectation and then fear the other teams? Basically it all goes wrong and in the end Rooney gets sent off. Quote the most successful manager of that team over the last 25 years "the players find the shirt heavy". Imagine the massive kick up the arse they'd get if the UK FA said "we're not sending a team this time because they're a bunch of lazy useless idiots with ulterior motives of getting their own pro contracts improved rather than performing for their countries" (See Paul Scholes book). The next time they might actually take it seriously. It's the same for sailing. The aussies and the UK have pioneered the way for managing this and their results justify their methods. Take the emotion out of it or you might as well just accept you're sending people on holiday. Otherwise the funding would go to other sports. The coaches probably spend so much time teaching the sailors to be more rationale and improve their psychology and then to go and select poor performing people would be complete hypocrisy. As it is there's a bonkers amount being spent on a very elitist sport anyway. The eye rolling that goes on at some of the people who get on funding in the UK sums it up. As mentioned above there's definitely a ton of rich kids who start "Campaigning" simply because they aren't bad and can give it a go when they really should just get on with their lives. Then low and behold 4-5 years later they have to give it up and probably grow up just 5 years later then everyone else who did it when they left full time education. It's arguable how many and I know that's not the same as the point of getting selected but it's still not right. When you see the governing bodies treating the hopefuls like cannon fodder you do feel for them. I guess they need to pour in the high numbers at the top of the funnel in the hope of producing the next Ben Ainslie or Robert Scheidt or Nathan O once per generation. And that's probably part of the problem here. These girls aren't good enough but have been lead to think they can be. Fair enough, don't try, never achieve. But the criteria was there and they should have known it was an uphill battle. World ranking is a joke and cannot be used as Simon has explained. But it is always the sob story trolled out by those that don't get selected as it sounds good, and they wouldn't have gotten this far if they were the kind of people to take failure on the chin and give up. Just because it's a nice story doesn't mean you should send them. There are a ton of identical stories and emotional reasons to spend that money on a ton of other things. Introducing a load of disadvantaged kids to sailing would be better. Better yet, why not introduce them to a sport they can afford to do on their own!
  15. ....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

    fair enough Sean. I'm 65 kgs and have no trouble in a moth but i have had one for a while and even when i started i had sailed some high performance boats. I do have to depower it a lot as the breeze gets above 15 but I can still sail it in 20 knots all right. more on flat water! I reckon if you get it with the big rig you might as well sail it with that in anything under 12 knots. it'd be fine. Still, i'll be intrigued to see how they foil with their foil set up and a smaller sail. I suspect it might need as much as 10 knots but hopefully will be proved wrong. A normal moth takes a bit of skill to get foiling in sub 7 knots and people over 80 can struggle in 8, i'm sure people will say otherwise but I think that's fair. I imagine losing that much sail area might make a difference. I guess it's on the same mast as the 8.25m sail? Maybe the removed area is all at the bottom of the sail which would reduce the impact in light breeze. do you know if Simon Payne is getting one? i suspect he will get one and be the showboater for the first few years or so to try and sell them in the UK?