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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Cavalier

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About Cavalier

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  1. Dead woman on a yacht abandoned in Sulu

    The second link above is an error, here is the second link I meant to post; http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Kidnapped-German-sailors-reach-Malaysia-in-reclaimed-yacht/62402
  2. This tragic story has several chapters; http://www.thelocal.de/20090518/19345 After repairing their yacht; http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=new_post&f=1 And then today's news; http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/841698/dead-woman-found-in-sulu-after-claim-of-abu-sayyaf-abduction
  3. Farymann Diesel

    I installed an HFL Marriner genset with a Farymann engine in 1995. After two rebuilds and 15k+ hours running at 3000 rpm it's still running perfectly. This is a simple engine, easy to work on without special tools, and all parts are easily available. The comment "Rumours I've heard is it is can be difficult to find a mechanic who actually knows their way around one." is clearly just a rumour, I can't imagine anyone who calls himself a mechanic having difficulty with such a simple engine. With regard to "rusting out from the inside" Yes this happened to my engine and resulted in the second rebuild last year. The water jacket on the block had corroded through to the outside resulting in a water leak. I replaced the block and the head, it then made sense to replace bearings rings and seals giving me pretty much a new engine. Keep in mind this is a raw water cooled engine so 20 years before the corrosion problem occurred is more than reasonable. It's simple enough to add an aftermarket heat exchanger if this concerns you. The engine has a hand start with decompressor which when engaged allows 3 - 4 turns before disengaging. While I have never managed to hand start the engine, the decompressor does help if the battery is a bit low. All in all, I have no hesitation recommending the Farymann. pm me if you have any specific questions, also, I have the engine workshop manual as a .pdf
  4. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    Consider your source's time line... On 29th, this was NOT a tropical storm. It was first registered as a tropical storm and assigned a name by the PAGASA midday Thursday. http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/727015/signal-no-1-raised-over-luzon-due-to-tropical-cyclone-kabayan#ixzz3nLW6cl7I In which case, I can only assume that Guy Nowell is wrong. More likely, a friend met the crew and asked, "if they thought the thunderstorms and bad weather east of Philippines might be a problem.." Its quite a different question, right? 5. The more you look at this tragic event the less any of it adds up. What is there to add up? A terrible tragic run of mis-judgement, bad timing, underestimation and god knows what else. Again, what are you trying so hard to conclude? 6. Had I known that a yacht had left HK on October 1 bound for Subic, I can assure you, I would have done everything in my power to contact and warn them to turn back. But you didn't! Well, done. Maybe you can include on your club's website 'Cavalier's Weather Forecast Page', providing people with your good advice. 7. We are talking here about a brand new yacht that had been in the water less than 2 weeks What's your point? Without jumping to conclusions, what are you saying? 8. At least two of the 4 crew members in their mid to late 70s. This is not a Volvo 70 crewed by a dozen guys at the top of their game. What is your point? OK, their physical abilities due to age, may have reduced their capabilities, but the 'go' decision I'm sure was made thinking it wouldn't get beyond their capabilities. Duh! What are you trying to say? Are you suggesting that all off-shore sailing must only be done with 12 strapping tough gnarly yachtsmen undder the age of 40? Tell that to 90% of the cruising world, I dare you! 9. You, like most of the posters here, seem to find nothing unusual in the fact that the owner of a brand new yacht with at least 2 crew members in their mid to late 70s, would head into a tropical storm or even a tropical depression. As I repeatedly keep saying, I don't think they thought they were heading out into a tropical storm (or even depression). As your own source said, they thought they were heading out into fine conditions, and any 'tropical weather activity' would be gone by the time they got there. As I have explained, I find it feesible that they got that call wrong, and therefore you're correct, I see nothing unusual. 10. Further, you seem to find nothing strange in the fact that an experienced skipper would, with the full knowledge of his shore based team, attempt to sail above any tropical storm. Here, I would find it strange actually, if that's what they did. See my last post. In fact, I don't think they had the benefit of making that decision. Frustratingly have absolutely no evidence upon which to unravel the mystery. I have explained how the shore-based team might not have been as critical or even played a part in the weather decisions. If there was weather discussion, I have explained how the JTWC weather observations and forecasts may have confused and obscured the impending situation. 11. Falling barometer and winds veering to the east would have warned any experienced skipper and crew that they were heading into trouble. I'm sure they had an 'Oh shit!' moment at some point, but not until late on the evening of the 2nd. 12. From the decision to leave HK there appears to have been a series of inexplicable decisions leading to the catastrophic consequence. I have highlighted two, the decision to continue... Again, I wouldn't say inexplicable...wrong, but to me feesible. 13. ...and the decision to attempt to pass above the storm. This is interesting. I can imagine the discussion on board. From a position 200 NW of the storm: Option 1. Take a downwind option. Best westward speed 8kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. No thanks. Option 2. Choose to beat to the east at 5kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. Relative progress is 17kts. In five hours you hope to be east of the storm, and things getting easier. Really Cavalier, what would you have done? Option 1? 14. Five men are dead, if there are lessons to be learned here, and assuming that readers of this thread are interested, such lessons will not be learned from discussion of EPIRB battery life. Agree with you on the EPIRBs. Now want to know what lessons you think people can learn. Come on, let's move this thread on. No more, what they did wrong - what they should've done...spell out the lessons you and others can learn. ------------------- There were definitely incorrect decisions. Many I can imagine the reasoning. Wrong, but understandable. Some inexplicable, since we don't have information to explain. There were aspects which may have hindered their ability to cope, but without knowing what they had to cope with, it is quite moot. With that agreed, where do we go from here? I'm not here to argue with you. I just think you need to stop repeating yourself (as you say yourself) and move your mind on. Turn your negativity into something positive by sharing lessons for people to take away. Good luck, DW Rereading your earlier post I have to ask what on earth you were thinking when you posted; "13. ...and the decision to attempt to pass above the storm. This is interesting. I can imagine the discussion on board. From a position 200 NW of the storm: Option 1. Take a downwind option. Best westward speed 8kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. No thanks. Option 2. Choose to beat to the east at 5kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. Relative progress is 17kts. In five hours you hope to be east of the storm, and things getting easier. Really Cavalier, what would you have done? Option 1?" Your option 2. Are you seriously trying to suggest that any yacht, let alone a Benneteau 60 who's only sails were an in-mast furling main and a roller furling masthead genoa, should even consider attempting to sail close hauled on a port tack on the high side of a tropical storm in the northern hemisphere?
  5. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    During that 72hrs he had no reason. Then with an overdue arrival, he did make a report. It was the responsibility of the skipper and crew to gather their weather information and take decisions relating to storm tactics and/or making a distress call. Satphone/ VHF/ HFSSB/a cheapie MW.LW Sony radio/ Barometer. They are all tools for any experienced crew to make their decisions. If he received no communication from them then there was little for him to do. No authorities will devote resources to looking for a boat whose satphone or radio may simply be on the blink. The real issue lay with the EPIRB being unregistered and no sailing plan being on file. I cannot see what anything that might have been said in that satphone call could have changed things. You keep saying there is a TRUTH that Jerry is hiding. What could it possibly be? The report, while bearing no name or signature, was in fact written by Jerry Rollin. In that report he states; "One of our group sent out a bulletin that the yacht was overdue, and that contact had been lost." The report does not indicate when contact was lost. We know that Jerry Rollin communicated with the Europa at noon on Friday and we can also see from his report, that he refers to himself in relation to the SatPhone call as "One of our group". If the report was prepared to represent the views of a group this turn of phrase is not that untoward. If he puts Jerry Rollin there instead it makes little difference. We know that at the time Jerry Rollin communicated with Europa at noon on Friday, the weather information available to him, showed that the the storm had already crossed Luzon into the Lingayan Gulf just south of Vigan, the Europa's destination. Yet Jerry Rollin makes no mention in his report of any further communication scheduled. Are we to believe that with a rapidly developing storm in front of 'Europa' and with the next weather bulletin available before 18:00 on Friday, that no further communication was scheduled after noon on Friday? The answer to that question will reveal when it was established that communication had been lost with Europa. If the loss of communication was simply put down to "a dodgy SatPhone", then why not simply say so? Because any reason given would simply be guessing... the most accurate description is "contact had been lost". Looking at the weather at 18:00 on Friday we can see that Europa was facing a potentially dangerous situation. By Saturday morning the weather chart showed that a typhoon had crossed very close to Europa's intended course. Was no attempt to communicate made on Saturday? The report only says: Contact had been lost. It implies an attempt at some time. Many of you, with or without a dog in this fight, can speculate, pontificate, obfuscate or simply post insults however, there is clearly one person, Jerry Rollin, who can answer the simple questions unequivocally. So we have established that Jerry's crimes are to have not put his name in a group report and to have failed to give a clear indication as to whether a scheduled call was arranged? Yes that lacks accuracy to my way of thinking too. I assume Jerry's roll in preparing a report and assisting authorities was not in any official government role or paid for service by the crew? In any event many of George Hackett's posts and a few of yours are bordering on a hysterical hatred for Jerry Rollin. He may well be a con man and poor of character, but there is nothing about this tragedy that Jerry Rollin has contributed to adversely. First, I would repeat, Jerry Rollin's name comes up here because he put his name forward when he appeared by phone in a TV report. There are others in "our group" who may also have been aware of the situation and who have not come forward. I did not suggest that the reason for contact being lost was a dodgy SatPhone, I was quoting from another post. The important when was it established that contact had been lost? You have said "During that 72hrs he had no reason. Then with an overdue arrival, he did make a report." We know that at the time of the SatPhone call 'Europa' was some 220nm out of HK and heading for Vigan. That left them with about 220 miles to go, we can therefore assume an ETA off the coast of Vigan Saturday afternoon or evening. Even if Jerry Rollin and the other members of "our group" were at that stage assuming that the SatPhone had failed, any reasonable person among them would have expected cel phone communication by late Saturday or early Sunday at the very latest. That is still more than 36 hours before the report was made.
  6. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    The 72 hrs has been argued round and around. There would have been many emergency calls being attended to at the time; it was a hurricane at sea. No contact from a yacht not overdue, yes even despite the weather, is no grounds for activating a search. The decision as to what constitutes "grounds for activating a search" is made by the Hong Kong Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre and is based on information received. We know that the Hong Kong Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre received an unidentified EPIRB signal at approximately 03:00 on Saturday. A report of contact having been lost with the yacht Europa would have enabled the Hong Kong Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre to immediately make the connection with the unidentified EPIRB and make an informed decision as to whether or not to initiate a search. Let us be clear, Jerry Rollin volunteered himself to "keep an eye on them". For reasons so far known only to him, he failed to keep an eye on them. Both the TV interview and the unsigned report focus on his actions during the subsequent search and recovery operation but notably, omit crucial details of action or inaction from noon on Friday until 16:00 on Monday when the report that contact had been lost was finally made.
  7. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    During that 72hrs he had no reason. Then with an overdue arrival, he did make a report. It was the responsibility of the skipper and crew to gather their weather information and take decisions relating to storm tactics and/or making a distress call. Satphone/ VHF/ HFSSB/a cheapie MW.LW Sony radio/ Barometer. They are all tools for any experienced crew to make their decisions. If he received no communication from them then there was little for him to do. No authorities will devote resources to looking for a boat whose satphone or radio may simply be on the blink. The real issue lay with the EPIRB being unregistered and no sailing plan being on file. I cannot see what anything that might have been said in that satphone call could have changed things. You keep saying there is a TRUTH that Jerry is hiding. What could it possibly be? The report, while bearing no name or signature, was in fact written by Jerry Rollin. In that report he states; "One of our group sent out a bulletin that the yacht was overdue, and that contact had been lost." The report does not indicate when contact was lost. We know that Jerry Rollin communicated with the Europa at noon on Friday and we can also see from his report, that he refers to himself in relation to the SatPhone call as "One of our group". We know that at the time Jerry Rollin communicated with Europa at noon on Friday, the weather information available to him, showed that the the storm had already crossed Luzon into the Lingayan Gulf just south of Vigan, the Europa's destination. Yet Jerry Rollin makes no mention in his report of any further communication scheduled. Are we to believe that with a rapidly developing storm in front of 'Europa' and with the next weather bulletin available before 18:00 on Friday, that no further communication was scheduled after noon on Friday? The answer to that question will reveal when it was established that communication had been lost with Europa. If the loss of communication was simply put down to "a dodgy SatPhone", then why not simply say so? Looking at the weather at 18:00 on Friday we can see that Europa was facing a potentially dangerous situation. By Saturday morning the weather chart showed that a typhoon had crossed very close to Europa's intended course. Was no attempt to communicate made on Saturday? Many of you, with or without a dog in this fight, can speculate, pontificate, obfuscate or simply post insults however, there is clearly one person, Jerry Rollin, who can answer the simple questions unequivocally.
  8. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    Looks like Ye don't wanna miss out on yum-cha with her friends. I guess the standard Mardep marine accident conclusions just eouldnt fit for this case and they would actually have to investigate something and draw conclusions. Fyi- I have read a few dozen accident reports from mardep, which are usually about vessel collision and the results are invariably the same. "In light of these findings all coxswains are advised to; 1. Maintain an adequate lookout 2. Always take early and obvious action to avoid collision 3. Maintain speed appropriate for conditions" There is plenty of info available to issue SOME report and Some Conclusions. But since the canned answer doesn't fit this situation and would require actual work and original thought (something Hk govt types are especially not good at) they are not even going to even look at it. Crap, I could call or email the guy who comissioned the vessel right now.(not that He would actually discuss with me these details,but he would if mardep came knocking) He would have ordered whatever equipment robin had specced and even has written records of what was installed and every detail of the boat and what was done including problems the yard had with comissionong it and the ser# of whatever they installed. He would know if the epirb was registered and what sea trial was done - (I know the HK company and at a minimum it would have had a full speed engine run for several hours and taken out for a sail prior to delivery to the customer) They have been comissionong Benes and other yachts since the mid '80s and have done TONS of em. Shit, the GM of Bene is friends with the owner of that company. Mardep could collect all this info and publish some conclusions that could easily help inform the community on the details. But that would be too much like work. And NOBODY, certainly no govt drone, would rather work than go for yum-cha. Can't argue there though I would point out that, other than the weather, the only detailed information that has been forthcoming has dealt with what occurred after Europa was lost. I'm sure you can understand why the manufacturer and or their agent, would be reluctant to even mention features such as "Instead of washboards, there’s a neat electric aluminum shutter to close off the companionway."
  9. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    While I'm sure many here have already read it, it may be worth taking another look at the MAIB report into the loss of 'Cheeki Rafiki' http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/matthew-sheahan/the-official-maib-report-into-the-loss-of-cheeki-rafiki-has-now-been-published-by-the-maib-63786/2 An Interesting point is raised; "The MCA didn’t agree stating that; If the voyage is a relocation voyage for commercial purposes, the vessel is almost certainly not being used as a pleasure vessel.’
  10. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    In order for the authorities to give any response priority, they have to be first informed. Europa did not have access to weather information once they left Hong Kong and were out of 4G range just past the Limas. They were totally dependant on their shore based contact to provide them with any necessary weather update. The weather chart issued at 08:00 on Friday and available at noon, the time of the last contact, clearly showed that Europa was most definitely not heading in a safe direction relative to the storm. The 08:00 weather chart showed sustained winds in front of Europa of 30 knots, meaning they could expect gusts to 50 knots. The same chart showed sustained winds in the vicinity of Subic Bay to be 10 knots. As I have already posted, I and several other yachts at the SBYC were recording gusts to 35 knots at noon on Friday. Given that we were on the south or navigable side of the storm, it was abundantly clear that the storm had intensified in the four hours since the 08:00 chart was issued. The next weather chart, issued at 14:00 and available by 18:00 confirmed that the storm was indeed intensifying and posed a very serious threat to Europa. This is still 72 hours before the alarm was raised. The US Navy provided me with the complete set of weather charts from 08:00 on Thursday, showing precisely what was available to the skipper and crew before they departed and to the shore based contact through to Sunday. Anyone looking at the weather chart issued at 02:00 on Saturday and available by 06:00, would have been left in no doubt that even if Europa had been able to maintain her expected course, which was clearly shown to be impossible, the yacht and crew would have been in very serious trouble . Therefore, why was the alarm not raised on Saturday morning at the absolute latest? That is still be some 56 hours before the actual alarm was raised. A report of contact with a yacht being lost in the vicinity would have immediately tied to the unidentified EPIRB, as indeed it was on Monday evening after the alarm was finally raised. I would emphasise, these are the actual weather charts that were available at the time.
  11. "To avoid criticism say nothing do nothing be nothing" - Aristotle

  12. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    The new evidence you're asking for is contained in the report written by Jerry Rollin and posted by George Hackett. Prior to that report there was no mention of the fact that "our group" had lost contact with the yacht. Having lost contact with a yacht that was known to be in close proximity to a typhoon, why did it take more than 72 hours to raise the alarm?
  13. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    People come to terms with a tragedy involving the loss of friends or family by understanding precisely what happened. In cases such as this, it's certainly not for you to decide what facts should be "fudged". The "our group" referred to in the report, comprises a number of people not just Jerry Rollin. Jerry Rollin is however, the only member of "our group" so far identified due to the fact that he put himself forward in the TV interview. We now know that Jerry Rollin did discuss the weather situation with Europa during the Sat Phone call on Friday. Again why not include what was discussed in the report to friends and family? We now also know from the report, that there were attempts to contact Europa after noon on Friday, so why not include this important fact in the report to friends and family? While the weather situation at noon on Friday was clear to me, it may not have been clear to Jerry Rollin at that time. If that's indeed the case, why not come out and say so in the report? At some point after noon on Friday, both the actual weather situation and the fact that communication had been lost, became known to members of "our group". Why then did it take more than 72 hours to raise the alarm? This is a tragedy that should never have occurred. If the omissions from the report to friends and family trying to come to terms with their loss were unintentional, that can be easily remedied. if however, such omissions were intentional, that is frankly despicable.
  14. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    Now that WD has brought us back to the Sat Phone call, albeit in a roundabout way, it may be worth another look at Jerry Rollin's report posted by George Hackett: "2 October, Friday around 1100h UTC+8 The Europa crew called one of us in the Philippines, by satellite telephone, to report that they were 210 nautical miles out of Hong Kong, and headed for the Northern Philippines at 9 knots. It appears they knew of the forecast track of the storm, and were taking a much more Northerly route to avoid it. At the time of the call, they were not in distress, and seemed quite confident of their route. Note that 9 knots is nearly the top speed of the Europa, and this would not be easy to maintain— or advisable to— if conditions were at all rough. The center of the storm, at the time of the call, was just past Bolinao, Pangasinan." Given that "one of us" is in fact Jerry Rollin and given that Jerry Rollin is himself the author of the report, it is now established that Jerry Rollin did indeed discuss the weather with the crew of Europa during the phone call at 11:00 on Friday. Surprisingly, the next action reported by Rollin of he or any member of the group referred to in his report, is more than 72 hours later 5 October, Monday One of our group sent out a bulletin that the yacht was overdue, and that contact had been lost. This reached the HKMRCC, and the connection was finally made that the EPIRB belonged to the Europa. However, by the time this was discovered, it was too late in the day to send out a flight. By reporting that "contact had been lost" with Europa, we now know that there were further attempts to contact Europa after the Sat Phone call on Friday. These attempts have not been included in the report. Given the fact that by Saturday the weather situation in the area Europa was traversing was well known to anyone who cared to look, it simply beggars belief that neither Jerry Rollin nor indeed any other member of "our group", would raise the alarm for more than 72 hours.
  15. Missing yacht from RHKYC

    Regarding " Writing to the MarDep MAI? WTF! Sad person..." Are we to understand that it is your position that any person who communicates with the official government body tasked with conducting an investigation into the apparent sinking of a yacht with the loss of five lives is a sad person? Surely that would be a better description for any person who, believing they had information which may be of help to such an investigation, did not communicate it. Obviously you contacted the Mar Dep as well, did you forget your earlier posts on the subject? With regard to the email I posted, I guess you're being obtuse when you suggest that an email addressed to the Manila Yacht Club, which has some 500 members, is "personally addressed email". Anyway, it clearly bothered you so much that you felt the need to reposted it in your quote.