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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

Cavalier

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About Cavalier

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  1. The second link above is an error, here is the second link I meant to post; http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Kidnapped-German-sailors-reach-Malaysia-in-reclaimed-yacht/62402
  2. This tragic story has several chapters; http://www.thelocal.de/20090518/19345 After repairing their yacht; http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=new_post&f=1 And then today's news; http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/841698/dead-woman-found-in-sulu-after-claim-of-abu-sayyaf-abduction
  3. I installed an HFL Marriner genset with a Farymann engine in 1995. After two rebuilds and 15k+ hours running at 3000 rpm it's still running perfectly. This is a simple engine, easy to work on without special tools, and all parts are easily available. The comment "Rumours I've heard is it is can be difficult to find a mechanic who actually knows their way around one." is clearly just a rumour, I can't imagine anyone who calls himself a mechanic having difficulty with such a simple engine. With regard to "rusting out from the inside" Yes this happened to my engine and resulted in the second rebuild last year. The water jacket on the block had corroded through to the outside resulting in a water leak. I replaced the block and the head, it then made sense to replace bearings rings and seals giving me pretty much a new engine. Keep in mind this is a raw water cooled engine so 20 years before the corrosion problem occurred is more than reasonable. It's simple enough to add an aftermarket heat exchanger if this concerns you. The engine has a hand start with decompressor which when engaged allows 3 - 4 turns before disengaging. While I have never managed to hand start the engine, the decompressor does help if the battery is a bit low. All in all, I have no hesitation recommending the Farymann. pm me if you have any specific questions, also, I have the engine workshop manual as a .pdf
  4. Consider your source's time line... On 29th, this was NOT a tropical storm. It was first registered as a tropical storm and assigned a name by the PAGASA midday Thursday. http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/727015/signal-no-1-raised-over-luzon-due-to-tropical-cyclone-kabayan#ixzz3nLW6cl7I In which case, I can only assume that Guy Nowell is wrong. More likely, a friend met the crew and asked, "if they thought the thunderstorms and bad weather east of Philippines might be a problem.." Its quite a different question, right? 5. The more you look at this tragic event the less any of it adds up. What is there to add up? A terrible tragic run of mis-judgement, bad timing, underestimation and god knows what else. Again, what are you trying so hard to conclude? 6. Had I known that a yacht had left HK on October 1 bound for Subic, I can assure you, I would have done everything in my power to contact and warn them to turn back. But you didn't! Well, done. Maybe you can include on your club's website 'Cavalier's Weather Forecast Page', providing people with your good advice. 7. We are talking here about a brand new yacht that had been in the water less than 2 weeks What's your point? Without jumping to conclusions, what are you saying? 8. At least two of the 4 crew members in their mid to late 70s. This is not a Volvo 70 crewed by a dozen guys at the top of their game. What is your point? OK, their physical abilities due to age, may have reduced their capabilities, but the 'go' decision I'm sure was made thinking it wouldn't get beyond their capabilities. Duh! What are you trying to say? Are you suggesting that all off-shore sailing must only be done with 12 strapping tough gnarly yachtsmen undder the age of 40? Tell that to 90% of the cruising world, I dare you! 9. You, like most of the posters here, seem to find nothing unusual in the fact that the owner of a brand new yacht with at least 2 crew members in their mid to late 70s, would head into a tropical storm or even a tropical depression. As I repeatedly keep saying, I don't think they thought they were heading out into a tropical storm (or even depression). As your own source said, they thought they were heading out into fine conditions, and any 'tropical weather activity' would be gone by the time they got there. As I have explained, I find it feesible that they got that call wrong, and therefore you're correct, I see nothing unusual. 10. Further, you seem to find nothing strange in the fact that an experienced skipper would, with the full knowledge of his shore based team, attempt to sail above any tropical storm. Here, I would find it strange actually, if that's what they did. See my last post. In fact, I don't think they had the benefit of making that decision. Frustratingly have absolutely no evidence upon which to unravel the mystery. I have explained how the shore-based team might not have been as critical or even played a part in the weather decisions. If there was weather discussion, I have explained how the JTWC weather observations and forecasts may have confused and obscured the impending situation. 11. Falling barometer and winds veering to the east would have warned any experienced skipper and crew that they were heading into trouble. I'm sure they had an 'Oh shit!' moment at some point, but not until late on the evening of the 2nd. 12. From the decision to leave HK there appears to have been a series of inexplicable decisions leading to the catastrophic consequence. I have highlighted two, the decision to continue... Again, I wouldn't say inexplicable...wrong, but to me feesible. 13. ...and the decision to attempt to pass above the storm. This is interesting. I can imagine the discussion on board. From a position 200 NW of the storm: Option 1. Take a downwind option. Best westward speed 8kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. No thanks. Option 2. Choose to beat to the east at 5kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. Relative progress is 17kts. In five hours you hope to be east of the storm, and things getting easier. Really Cavalier, what would you have done? Option 1? 14. Five men are dead, if there are lessons to be learned here, and assuming that readers of this thread are interested, such lessons will not be learned from discussion of EPIRB battery life. Agree with you on the EPIRBs. Now want to know what lessons you think people can learn. Come on, let's move this thread on. No more, what they did wrong - what they should've done...spell out the lessons you and others can learn. ------------------- There were definitely incorrect decisions. Many I can imagine the reasoning. Wrong, but understandable. Some inexplicable, since we don't have information to explain. There were aspects which may have hindered their ability to cope, but without knowing what they had to cope with, it is quite moot. With that agreed, where do we go from here? I'm not here to argue with you. I just think you need to stop repeating yourself (as you say yourself) and move your mind on. Turn your negativity into something positive by sharing lessons for people to take away. Good luck, DW Rereading your earlier post I have to ask what on earth you were thinking when you posted; "13. ...and the decision to attempt to pass above the storm. This is interesting. I can imagine the discussion on board. From a position 200 NW of the storm: Option 1. Take a downwind option. Best westward speed 8kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. No thanks. Option 2. Choose to beat to the east at 5kts. Storm travelling west at 12kts. Relative progress is 17kts. In five hours you hope to be east of the storm, and things getting easier. Really Cavalier, what would you have done? Option 1?" Your option 2. Are you seriously trying to suggest that any yacht, let alone a Benneteau 60 who's only sails were an in-mast furling main and a roller furling masthead genoa, should even consider attempting to sail close hauled on a port tack on the high side of a tropical storm in the northern hemisphere?
  5. During that 72hrs he had no reason. Then with an overdue arrival, he did make a report. It was the responsibility of the skipper and crew to gather their weather information and take decisions relating to storm tactics and/or making a distress call. Satphone/ VHF/ HFSSB/a cheapie MW.LW Sony radio/ Barometer. They are all tools for any experienced crew to make their decisions. If he received no communication from them then there was little for him to do. No authorities will devote resources to looking for a boat whose satphone or radio may simply be on the blink. The real issue lay with the EPIRB being unregistered and no sailing plan being on file. I cannot see what anything that might have been said in that satphone call could have changed things. You keep saying there is a TRUTH that Jerry is hiding. What could it possibly be? The report, while bearing no name or signature, was in fact written by Jerry Rollin. In that report he states; "One of our group sent out a bulletin that the yacht was overdue, and that contact had been lost." The report does not indicate when contact was lost. We know that Jerry Rollin communicated with the Europa at noon on Friday and we can also see from his report, that he refers to himself in relation to the SatPhone call as "One of our group". If the report was prepared to represent the views of a group this turn of phrase is not that untoward. If he puts Jerry Rollin there instead it makes little difference. We know that at the time Jerry Rollin communicated with Europa at noon on Friday, the weather information available to him, showed that the the storm had already crossed Luzon into the Lingayan Gulf just south of Vigan, the Europa's destination. Yet Jerry Rollin makes no mention in his report of any further communication scheduled. Are we to believe that with a rapidly developing storm in front of 'Europa' and with the next weather bulletin available before 18:00 on Friday, that no further communication was scheduled after noon on Friday? The answer to that question will reveal when it was established that communication had been lost with Europa. If the loss of communication was simply put down to "a dodgy SatPhone", then why not simply say so? Because any reason given would simply be guessing... the most accurate description is "contact had been lost". Looking at the weather at 18:00 on Friday we can see that Europa was facing a potentially dangerous situation. By Saturday morning the weather chart showed that a typhoon had crossed very close to Europa's intended course. Was no attempt to communicate made on Saturday? The report only says: Contact had been lost. It implies an attempt at some time. Many of you, with or without a dog in this fight, can speculate, pontificate, obfuscate or simply post insults however, there is clearly one person, Jerry Rollin, who can answer the simple questions unequivocally. So we have established that Jerry's crimes are to have not put his name in a group report and to have failed to give a clear indication as to whether a scheduled call was arranged? Yes that lacks accuracy to my way of thinking too. I assume Jerry's roll in preparing a report and assisting authorities was not in any official government role or paid for service by the crew? In any event many of George Hackett's posts and a few of yours are bordering on a hysterical hatred for Jerry Rollin. He may well be a con man and poor of character, but there is nothing about this tragedy that Jerry Rollin has contributed to adversely. First, I would repeat, Jerry Rollin's name comes up here because he put his name forward when he appeared by phone in a TV report. There are others in "our group" who may also have been aware of the situation and who have not come forward. I did not suggest that the reason for contact being lost was a dodgy SatPhone, I was quoting from another post. The important when was it established that contact had been lost? You have said "During that 72hrs he had no reason. Then with an overdue arrival, he did make a report." We know that at the time of the SatPhone call 'Europa' was some 220nm out of HK and heading for Vigan. That left them with about 220 miles to go, we can therefore assume an ETA off the coast of Vigan Saturday afternoon or evening. Even if Jerry Rollin and the other members of "our group" were at that stage assuming that the SatPhone had failed, any reasonable person among them would have expected cel phone communication by late Saturday or early Sunday at the very latest. That is still more than 36 hours before the report was made.
  6. The 72 hrs has been argued round and around. There would have been many emergency calls being attended to at the time; it was a hurricane at sea. No contact from a yacht not overdue, yes even despite the weather, is no grounds for activating a search. The decision as to what constitutes "grounds for activating a search" is made by the Hong Kong Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre and is based on information received. We know that the Hong Kong Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre received an unidentified EPIRB signal at approximately 03:00 on Saturday. A report of contact having been lost with the yacht Europa would have enabled the Hong Kong Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre to immediately make the connection with the unidentified EPIRB and make an informed decision as to whether or not to initiate a search. Let us be clear, Jerry Rollin volunteered himself to "keep an eye on them". For reasons so far known only to him, he failed to keep an eye on them. Both the TV interview and the unsigned report focus on his actions during the subsequent search and recovery operation but notably, omit crucial details of action or inaction from noon on Friday until 16:00 on Monday when the report that contact had been lost was finally made.
  7. During that 72hrs he had no reason. Then with an overdue arrival, he did make a report. It was the responsibility of the skipper and crew to gather their weather information and take decisions relating to storm tactics and/or making a distress call. Satphone/ VHF/ HFSSB/a cheapie MW.LW Sony radio/ Barometer. They are all tools for any experienced crew to make their decisions. If he received no communication from them then there was little for him to do. No authorities will devote resources to looking for a boat whose satphone or radio may simply be on the blink. The real issue lay with the EPIRB being unregistered and no sailing plan being on file. I cannot see what anything that might have been said in that satphone call could have changed things. You keep saying there is a TRUTH that Jerry is hiding. What could it possibly be? The report, while bearing no name or signature, was in fact written by Jerry Rollin. In that report he states; "One of our group sent out a bulletin that the yacht was overdue, and that contact had been lost." The report does not indicate when contact was lost. We know that Jerry Rollin communicated with the Europa at noon on Friday and we can also see from his report, that he refers to himself in relation to the SatPhone call as "One of our group". We know that at the time Jerry Rollin communicated with Europa at noon on Friday, the weather information available to him, showed that the the storm had already crossed Luzon into the Lingayan Gulf just south of Vigan, the Europa's destination. Yet Jerry Rollin makes no mention in his report of any further communication scheduled. Are we to believe that with a rapidly developing storm in front of 'Europa' and with the next weather bulletin available before 18:00 on Friday, that no further communication was scheduled after noon on Friday? The answer to that question will reveal when it was established that communication had been lost with Europa. If the loss of communication was simply put down to "a dodgy SatPhone", then why not simply say so? Looking at the weather at 18:00 on Friday we can see that Europa was facing a potentially dangerous situation. By Saturday morning the weather chart showed that a typhoon had crossed very close to Europa's intended course. Was no attempt to communicate made on Saturday? Many of you, with or without a dog in this fight, can speculate, pontificate, obfuscate or simply post insults however, there is clearly one person, Jerry Rollin, who can answer the simple questions unequivocally.
  8. Looks like Ye don't wanna miss out on yum-cha with her friends. I guess the standard Mardep marine accident conclusions just eouldnt fit for this case and they would actually have to investigate something and draw conclusions. Fyi- I have read a few dozen accident reports from mardep, which are usually about vessel collision and the results are invariably the same. "In light of these findings all coxswains are advised to; 1. Maintain an adequate lookout 2. Always take early and obvious action to avoid collision 3. Maintain speed appropriate for conditions" There is plenty of info available to issue SOME report and Some Conclusions. But since the canned answer doesn't fit this situation and would require actual work and original thought (something Hk govt types are especially not good at) they are not even going to even look at it. Crap, I could call or email the guy who comissioned the vessel right now.(not that He would actually discuss with me these details,but he would if mardep came knocking) He would have ordered whatever equipment robin had specced and even has written records of what was installed and every detail of the boat and what was done including problems the yard had with comissionong it and the ser# of whatever they installed. He would know if the epirb was registered and what sea trial was done - (I know the HK company and at a minimum it would have had a full speed engine run for several hours and taken out for a sail prior to delivery to the customer) They have been comissionong Benes and other yachts since the mid '80s and have done TONS of em. Shit, the GM of Bene is friends with the owner of that company. Mardep could collect all this info and publish some conclusions that could easily help inform the community on the details. But that would be too much like work. And NOBODY, certainly no govt drone, would rather work than go for yum-cha. Can't argue there though I would point out that, other than the weather, the only detailed information that has been forthcoming has dealt with what occurred after Europa was lost. I'm sure you can understand why the manufacturer and or their agent, would be reluctant to even mention features such as "Instead of washboards, there’s a neat electric aluminum shutter to close off the companionway."
  9. While I'm sure many here have already read it, it may be worth taking another look at the MAIB report into the loss of 'Cheeki Rafiki' http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/matthew-sheahan/the-official-maib-report-into-the-loss-of-cheeki-rafiki-has-now-been-published-by-the-maib-63786/2 An Interesting point is raised; "The MCA didn’t agree stating that; If the voyage is a relocation voyage for commercial purposes, the vessel is almost certainly not being used as a pleasure vessel.’
  10. In order for the authorities to give any response priority, they have to be first informed. Europa did not have access to weather information once they left Hong Kong and were out of 4G range just past the Limas. They were totally dependant on their shore based contact to provide them with any necessary weather update. The weather chart issued at 08:00 on Friday and available at noon, the time of the last contact, clearly showed that Europa was most definitely not heading in a safe direction relative to the storm. The 08:00 weather chart showed sustained winds in front of Europa of 30 knots, meaning they could expect gusts to 50 knots. The same chart showed sustained winds in the vicinity of Subic Bay to be 10 knots. As I have already posted, I and several other yachts at the SBYC were recording gusts to 35 knots at noon on Friday. Given that we were on the south or navigable side of the storm, it was abundantly clear that the storm had intensified in the four hours since the 08:00 chart was issued. The next weather chart, issued at 14:00 and available by 18:00 confirmed that the storm was indeed intensifying and posed a very serious threat to Europa. This is still 72 hours before the alarm was raised. The US Navy provided me with the complete set of weather charts from 08:00 on Thursday, showing precisely what was available to the skipper and crew before they departed and to the shore based contact through to Sunday. Anyone looking at the weather chart issued at 02:00 on Saturday and available by 06:00, would have been left in no doubt that even if Europa had been able to maintain her expected course, which was clearly shown to be impossible, the yacht and crew would have been in very serious trouble . Therefore, why was the alarm not raised on Saturday morning at the absolute latest? That is still be some 56 hours before the actual alarm was raised. A report of contact with a yacht being lost in the vicinity would have immediately tied to the unidentified EPIRB, as indeed it was on Monday evening after the alarm was finally raised. I would emphasise, these are the actual weather charts that were available at the time.
  11. The new evidence you're asking for is contained in the report written by Jerry Rollin and posted by George Hackett. Prior to that report there was no mention of the fact that "our group" had lost contact with the yacht. Having lost contact with a yacht that was known to be in close proximity to a typhoon, why did it take more than 72 hours to raise the alarm?
  12. People come to terms with a tragedy involving the loss of friends or family by understanding precisely what happened. In cases such as this, it's certainly not for you to decide what facts should be "fudged". The "our group" referred to in the report, comprises a number of people not just Jerry Rollin. Jerry Rollin is however, the only member of "our group" so far identified due to the fact that he put himself forward in the TV interview. We now know that Jerry Rollin did discuss the weather situation with Europa during the Sat Phone call on Friday. Again why not include what was discussed in the report to friends and family? We now also know from the report, that there were attempts to contact Europa after noon on Friday, so why not include this important fact in the report to friends and family? While the weather situation at noon on Friday was clear to me, it may not have been clear to Jerry Rollin at that time. If that's indeed the case, why not come out and say so in the report? At some point after noon on Friday, both the actual weather situation and the fact that communication had been lost, became known to members of "our group". Why then did it take more than 72 hours to raise the alarm? This is a tragedy that should never have occurred. If the omissions from the report to friends and family trying to come to terms with their loss were unintentional, that can be easily remedied. if however, such omissions were intentional, that is frankly despicable.
  13. Now that WD has brought us back to the Sat Phone call, albeit in a roundabout way, it may be worth another look at Jerry Rollin's report posted by George Hackett: "2 October, Friday around 1100h UTC+8 The Europa crew called one of us in the Philippines, by satellite telephone, to report that they were 210 nautical miles out of Hong Kong, and headed for the Northern Philippines at 9 knots. It appears they knew of the forecast track of the storm, and were taking a much more Northerly route to avoid it. At the time of the call, they were not in distress, and seemed quite confident of their route. Note that 9 knots is nearly the top speed of the Europa, and this would not be easy to maintain— or advisable to— if conditions were at all rough. The center of the storm, at the time of the call, was just past Bolinao, Pangasinan." Given that "one of us" is in fact Jerry Rollin and given that Jerry Rollin is himself the author of the report, it is now established that Jerry Rollin did indeed discuss the weather with the crew of Europa during the phone call at 11:00 on Friday. Surprisingly, the next action reported by Rollin of he or any member of the group referred to in his report, is more than 72 hours later 5 October, Monday One of our group sent out a bulletin that the yacht was overdue, and that contact had been lost. This reached the HKMRCC, and the connection was finally made that the EPIRB belonged to the Europa. However, by the time this was discovered, it was too late in the day to send out a flight. By reporting that "contact had been lost" with Europa, we now know that there were further attempts to contact Europa after the Sat Phone call on Friday. These attempts have not been included in the report. Given the fact that by Saturday the weather situation in the area Europa was traversing was well known to anyone who cared to look, it simply beggars belief that neither Jerry Rollin nor indeed any other member of "our group", would raise the alarm for more than 72 hours.
  14. Regarding " Writing to the MarDep MAI? WTF! Sad person..." Are we to understand that it is your position that any person who communicates with the official government body tasked with conducting an investigation into the apparent sinking of a yacht with the loss of five lives is a sad person? Surely that would be a better description for any person who, believing they had information which may be of help to such an investigation, did not communicate it. Obviously you contacted the Mar Dep as well, did you forget your earlier posts on the subject? With regard to the email I posted, I guess you're being obtuse when you suggest that an email addressed to the Manila Yacht Club, which has some 500 members, is "personally addressed email". Anyway, it clearly bothered you so much that you felt the need to reposted it in your quote.
  15. And here, email received from the Marine Accident Investigation Section Marine Department of HKSAR. Missing of “UNMAMED” (COO 141839) Hong Kong licensed yacht at South China Sea in Oct. 2015 To: Manila Yacht Club Dear Sir, Good day. Thank you very much for your assistance to the Marine Safety Investigation of the captioned incident. Please be informed that due to no solid evidence of the sinking yacht/missing crew was found, and we have insufficient evidence to conduct a meaningful investigation into this accident. Therefore we will not compile an investigation report at the present stage. This case will be re-opened if new evidence / further information is received. Best regards Ye Guorong Surveyor of Ships Marine Accident Investigation Section Marine Department of HKSAR Fax: +852 - 2543 0805 Tel: +852 - 2852 4511