Greenflash

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  1. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    This is a good bit of boatbuilding debate, as pertinent to crash protection as Kevlar vs Carbon is. Firstly some info: Stitched fabric is a bit lighter and stiffer than woven fabrics because the woven weave absorbs slightly more resin and the "rovings/strands" of material need to go up and down through the weave, where a flat stitched fabric has strands that are completely straight. However on cruising boats we have always used a woven fabric as the first layer down on the mold because, apart from some sanding-and-painting benefits and it printing less, it holds together in a crash. If you had a small to medium sized hole in the outer skin on a stitched boat, the water will actually 'tear' the strands off and apart.. and keep going all the way down the undamaged hull - they are completely relying on inter-laminar shear, whereas a woven fabric is mechanically holding itself together. Also, from the many panels I have seen tested I am pretty sure woven generally handles impact loads better than stitched. (In other words in a bowling-ball drop test). I'll let you composite guru's comment on that. For the quoted project, the micromesh fibers assisted with infusion flows but also added strength. I don't know how they would help with 'peeling' of fibres after impact. My comments above are based solely on pure woven vs pure stitched carbon cloth. Another thing to consider
  2. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Everything you guys say is absolutely right - Kevlar is of course better than Carbon for crash resistance - they make bullet proof vests out of the stuff! Our conclusion was to use the minimum skin thickness requirement to benefit performance while understanding our heavy skins already gave us a huge margin of safety for impact strength, we then analyse what the crash event is doing. The vast majority of times it is from the front onto the bow or foils (and we discussed this in this thread before so please go back to check that out) - so we do a 4 level of safety which I will reiterate very shortly: A crash bow not integral to the hull skins and filled with pretty high density energy absorbing foam, then the actual hull closing out, then a crossbeam bulkhead a bit behind that, then the water tight aft sail locker bulkhead a few meters behind that. When I say Kevlar is going along for the ride, to be clear, it is not adding a significant value to the overall stiffness, but would add more impact resistance. We chose stiffness while being more than comfortable with impact loads due to the minimum skin requirements and 4-tier impact protection on bow and heavily reinforced daggerboard bearings etc.
  3. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Ya got me mate. They aren't the highest energy and not the final solution to this regen story but they work well, completely detachable and serviceable and don't hurt the boat if the get hit or if they break. A safe go to add on option for diesel propulsion boats.
  4. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    A number of years ago hybrid laminates were all the rage - 900grams of carbon and then 300g of kevlar or eglass. I can't dispute that the last 300g in kevlar would handle dock-rash better, but it is absolutely just going along for the ride. VPLP told us why put something in there that doesn't DO anything to the stiffness of the boat? It is like making a rope out of Dyneema and Polyester strands - the Dyneema will take all the load to failure before the PE even gets close to its max strain. So on the Gunboat 68, because in essence it is already beefed up by minimum skin thickness requirements for CE, we go full carbon because it actually does make the boat better, without taking away from the robustness in terms of impact strength.
  5. Greenflash

    MAGA

    I'll wade in, why not. She has so much power right now I don't think she even gets it. People are loving the young person scolding adults idea - makes us all look like fools because she is willing to say the things nobody else is willing to. She doesn't play by the rules. But - I thought her basically crying whiny speech to the UN was almost to the point of being rude, she was not showing maturity in controlling emotions. I understand she is still a child and it must be hard, but it she wants to make a real change then you need to deliver the message to the leaders of the world with maturity and not be too radical. If she is too radical and in-your-face I am pretty sure the powers that be will stop giving her a soap box to stand on. Use your power carefully and wisely Greta. Don't scowl at President Trump - engage with him - draw him in - be the better, smarter, wiser person and make the world feel DUMB for not listening to you. Don't whine and bitch!
  6. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Hi Wess It depends on the size and purpose of the boat, even in CE you get different design categories that drive structural engineering. I can tell you that our size of boats, built to CE, have to have 1200g/sm skins (that is 1.2mm) on the outside skin. I would never want to go under 1000g for real protection for a 'big' cruising boat. If your buddy has 300g skins, that will hold the boat together, but impact or dock rash strength is very little, so he better baby that boat as much as possible, because: sh!t happens and that is why CE (Really, ISO Structural Cat A) have these rulebooks, written on top of the graves of plenty of people who kept pushing the limits. It isn't a raceboat, which means the payloads are huge and the normal use cases can be wildly varying especially considering there aren't always pro sailors managing the boat... or perhaps because pro sailors do get to play on board... Safety factors are important . Case in point: many old Gunboats have completely new rig packages and much much longer daggerboards and are being sailed harder than ever. Then 3Di sails and non-stretchy running rigging came on board which recently meant the gear like mainsheet cars were blowing up. The boats are holding together though and a big part of this is due to weight-saving refits over the years - and safety factors! This isn't an ideal situation though, so that is why the Gunboat 68 was engineered for worst case daggerboard, rudder and rig loads. Someone can take Dash and turn it into Condor without worrying about the platform, bearings, etc. I look forward to seeing this consistency or dare I say "one design" proving itself valuable in the years to come!
  7. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Hey you guys ARE smoking something - love these ideas! Yeah the glue down panels I am guessing lose 10-15% compared to raised /cooled panels, but they are walk-on and super easy to install and integrate. Water cooling in roof is doable, you are on a sandwich panel one side of foam, so you'd need to prep the water grid recesses in the mold before starting the roof. These will make the roof a lot heavier not even to speak of the water cooling system weight. Then the install complexity and the risk of leaks. Is the cost and sailing performance loss worth a 10% gain on solar? I'd rather spend that on bigger more efficient alternators or hydrogenerator integration etc etc. So short answer is - yes it can be done and we absolutely can do it - but I don't think it is money and weight well spent. Back from 2 successful boatshows, couple of little awards under the belt and fantastic feedback on the Gunboat 68. I was so busy I didn't take many photos but Sailing Yacht TV did a live walkthrough in Cannes, check it out below. Reminder: This is 6802 DASH, full cruising setup.
  8. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Hi everyone, forgive me for the blatant marketing blurb, but you may find it interesting! If you'd like to see Dash or Condor they will be at boatshows next week: Dash at Cannes,France from 10 - 15 September and Condor at Newport,RI 12-15 September. For those interested you can read a little about the Dash seatrials (and first cruise!) and latest yard news here: https://mailchi.mp/gunboat/gunboat68news-sept2019?e=d35c5fd16e
  9. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Hello Lurker19, congrats for not lurking anymore! To be clear it is no secret V1.0 of Gunboat hybrid systems back in 2012 did not work very well, but that was seriously bleeding edge of the sword science project stuff. Moonwave as she is right now with a Torqeedo Hybrid system is seriously impressive. I've been on board to see it myself and we are in close touch with them. The exterior designer of Moonwave was on board a while ago for a week's cruise and apparently they didn't burn a drop of diesel. (Note - no airconditioning) You're talking about a parallel hybrid and there are many versions of this in the Automotive industry. There are also a few versions in the marine industry, most notable on bigger boats and a couple of versions for smaller boats do exist. The interesting thing with series hybrids is that you can place the power making unit/s (ICEs) anywhere and the small drive units (Electric motors) in optimal places. Risk is if the electrical bits stop working you are screwed. So proven reliability is key. So to answer your question number 1 and 2: Naturally we are very interested in this technology, the platform is very good for it because it offers extremely interesting REGENERATION potential. Light boat with a powerful rig. Bottom line is that until very recently these systems were heavier, much more expensive, not reliable and the regeneration when sailing simply didn't work. I won't get into the details, but it is quite difficult to create hardware and especially software to handle the constantly changing power input (wind and sails) while managing your drag (props, hull) all on a "roadway" that is FLUID. Our mission is to create fast family friendly CRUISING boats first, that work reliably... and then you can take them racing if you want. The hybrid technology is just about ready to fit into this mission statement. Finger is still on the pulse is all I can say. Simple answer is that if you had one reef in the main, you have a "cruising rig". Think about it more as having the horsepower available when you need it in light air. Condor's boards are both Symmetric. I think we explained that in our daggerboard article, but there are certain angles that make the Asymmetric worth it, but then you need to tack the boards every time. For Condor's race+cruise program they chose the simpler option as the gain was not worth the hassle. Same thing applies, in heavy seas where you want to reduce power and stop yourself being tripped up by the board/s, just pull them up. You just have more available for extra lift, when required. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY
  10. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    How are you mpenman? Condor's crew are top notch, the boat still looks like new! Lots of attention to detail. The rig subject is one I can't get into too much detail, it is a long story, but we've never been married to one supplier. We see Hall and Lorima, with the right project management, as on par with one another. They have their strengths and weaknesses. The decision is partly client, cost, delivery driven - it is all in the melting pot. Rig world is a surprisingly fast changing sector of the industry. What I can confirm is 6802 (Dash) and 6803 have Lorima rigs. Just to stem any concerns, we did not switch because of any negative technical reasons, Hall built a fantastic product for Condor that is performing as designed and was on target weight. Who knows, Hall may be doing another Gunboat 68 rig soon.
  11. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    This one was a push, but 1 month after launch, Dash is in Sardinia and on day 1 in the Med they caught a 50kg Tuna. Almost like a little gift to the owners as a nod to their fully cruising program! They put the biggest Yeti cooler I've ever seen in the forward cockpit Cannes boatshow on the 10th September. Best seatrials I've had on any boat, platform is rock solid. First Lorima rig just- well it just works! Usual teething leaks in plumbing and dings in furniture, but we can see our quality compounding and the experience of the team showing.
  12. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions here, but in the interest of being factual I’d like to clarify a few things: In 2012 a Gunboat 60 was selling for $2.5-2.7 Mil with aircon, sails, genset, exworks Xiamen, China. (Source: I was the PM) A HH55 does not have the same internal volume and so far nobody knows if it is 95% of the performance of a GB68 in the real world, but it was designed as an owner operator boat and of course, it all depends on weight and conditions. Ask the question: if HH6603 Nala is 95% the performance of GB6801 Condor, then why or how would HH align their smaller owner operator to match their big sister? (Source: I was the PM) A TS is a cool boat, hell, I would have one – but bear in mind it addresses a different type of client, one that is happy with less comfort and aesthetics inside in favor of weight savings and price point. It is not a fair comparison. I’m OK with dome nuts sticking out of the roll-on coated ceiling above my head, but most Gunboat clients aren’t. (Source: Been on board the TS5) 5X’s are great, I sail on them regularly and work with the engineers daily. A stock 5X has fantastic value for money performance on a boat designed to do family cruising. The single boat referred to here is Mach Schnell in the hands of ex Elvis boat captain (Since then, they have actually bought Elvis), it was optimized and did well in heavier air races, against centerboard/non optimized GB60’s, correct. The boat felt the punishment though as it wasn’t really designed for being pushed to the limit like that – like putting running backstays onto padeyes that were designed to handle a spinnaker sheet. (Source: Gunboat is owned by GLY, who also own Outremer) Paradox, Finn and Extreme H20 are all highly customized and high performance boats with the trimarans being full custom one-offs and not part of a fleet or support network. Can be perfect for the right owner for sure, but be real about the vessel you buy. (Source: know all 3 boats and the people who designed and built them, sailed on Extreme) For some more info and our views on the very first Gunboat 68 racing from the people on the racecourse – check out https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/209648-gunboat-68-race-results/ Look, I think that we can make any claim here, it is the internet after all! What I would recommend to anyone in this sector of the market is to know that it is all relative. You can take many of these platforms and make it go fast, but then you may not have the luxury factor or the creature comforts you want or have as much fun cruising or being part of a great community. It is all in the melting pot and the big challenge with these boats, having managed a bunch of projects now (MC^2 60, GB60, HH66,HH55, GB68) is finding the right balance. And when you get it right for 80% of your target market you still lose some clients who want to get out of that envelope. That’s life. I think it’s great that there are so many options out there now, but do your research, there’s a lot of misinformation out there. Meanwhile, I've been quite busy out here in France, Gunboat 6802 DASH launched last week and we had her flying along at 20 knots on the second day of seatrials! All good.
  13. Greenflash

    Honeycomb too delicate for cruising?

    I haven't worked with Honeycomb for a while now, but the pressure on top of each cell (on top of the laminate) is just taken by the cell walls in compression, what you can to avoid is edge loading/side pressure or the whole thing will concertina on you. That is why they always edge the sheets with either (or both) a hard mold/wood edge or by filling it with resin/core bond. I think you can also get away with it using a long core chamfer down to zero. We once did the edging and chamfers for a monohull raceboat nomex hull core with corecell foam, to be safe.
  14. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68 Race Results????

    Solid finish yesterday with Condor coming in first elapsed and on corrected(?) Congrats to FLOW who won the regatta over VaiVai in the very last race!
  15. Greenflash

    Gunboat 68 Race Results????

    Hi everyone! I’m not racing (we’re putting GB6802 in the water next week – all hands on deck at the factory!) but I am watching it closely of course. I’d like to give some perspective the way I see it, not making any excuses and there is certainly room for improvement, just the analysis of good and bad takeaways from the racing so far. I won’t comment on the rating, it is obviously a work in progress, but can comment on the elapsed times. I put the elapsed finishes below, 4 x 2nd and Friday 2 x 1st place finishes for Condor: Takeaways thus far: Condor have a super crew for the regatta and have been working to get the mix of standard crew and new race crew as well as new boat in tune to perform in its debut race. It’s going to take a bit of time to get this in all in sync, I think that’s to be expected. They have been improving through the week in certain modes especially downwind – Thursday’s finish in light to moderate winds saw Nala, Condor and Flow within 60 seconds over the line after over 2 hours on the water – both Nala and Flow are lighter and well optimized boats so we see this as positive so early on. It’s been mostly light air so far and weight definitely matters most – Condor has a regatta rig but is also geared for cruising with lots of equipment. The race team are happy that the boat is so turn-key for racing and it is all working with a nearly empty worklist – more beer time! We’ve been honest from the start that the brief for GB68-01 Condor was never to be the fastest Gunboat, it was to be in competition with Nala and Flow. VPP always showed that with its global cruising configuration in light air, weight and transom immersion will be detrimental to Condor as opposed to the lighter boats with rocker and transoms out. Below photo shows for the upwind leg on Race 2, when the wind picked up a bit, they put a mile on the fleet upwind and also got those 2 bullets on the windier Friday. If we go back to the Gunboat 68 Project design brief: we would deliver a platform that could be turned into the fleet racing leader or the most luxurious cruisy Gunboat out there, without changing the structure and fundamentals of the boat. If an owner who is ultimately prioritizing racing comes to us the platform could be at the starting line 2-3 Tons lighter with the exact same structure. Thank you for the interest and feedback, our product development team already have a list of things to investigate from lessons learnt during this first race!