• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

ftbinc

Members
  • Content count

    201
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About ftbinc

  • Rank
    Anarchist

Profile Information

  • Location
    Chciago
  1. Rules and protest question

    NO THE COLREGS DO NOT APPLY, whether there is a protest hearing or not. If there is no protest hearing, the insurer or if necessary the court should apply the RRS. Allen, First thing you need to decide is whether you want a written protest decision to support your insurance/damages claim. It is probably to your advantage to get one, but you should consult your insurance broker or insurer. If you want a protest decision, I suggest that if the Organising Authority or Race Committee has indicated to you that they do not intend to hold a protest hearing, you write to them, pointing out that: their SI purporting to deny the right of appeal is invalid because rule 70 which provide the right of appeal is a rule which rule 86.1( a ) specifically prohibits being changed by SI or otherwise; you request that they arrange a protest hearing of your protest promptly; if no protest hearing is held you are entitled to appeal under rule 70.1( b ), and if that happens you will consider doing so. Then, if no hearing is concluded within 30 days of when you delivered your written protest, submit an appeal to the YRA immediately. You should expect to win such an appeal, in which case, the Appeals Committee can return the protest to be heard by a protest committee appointed by the OA/RC, or the Appeals Committee may itself appoint a protest committee to hear it (rule 71.2). Brass: I meant to say, if the RRS's did not apply then Colregs would apply. I mis-spoke when I said if there was no protest hearing, What I should have said was if the OA does not include something like "that the race will be governed by the rules as defined in The Racing Rules of Sailing" in the NORs or the SI, then it would be covered by ColRegs... my error. Thanks for catching it.
  2. Rules and protest question

    Hi Allen: Tried to PM you , but i couldn't. Again, If they choose to follow the RRS, then the OA agrees to be governed by them as well - Rule 3 of RRS 3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees (a) to be governed by the rules; ( to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules; IF they refuse to hold a Protest hearing then I would believe the whole thing goes under ColRegs - I would hire an attorney and make sure you get fees as part of the settlement. Running down a smaller boat should never be OK or without major consequences. Fortunately, no one was hurt or killed this time. Sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport. -p
  3. Rules and protest question

    I am assuming the SSIs stated the race would be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing RRS. If they DID NOT, then only ColRegs would apply (See Rule 13) and they are really fucked, since they basically ran you down. If they invoke the RRS, then they must follow rule 70 and the US Sailing Prescription below. 6.7.1 directlly contridicts the RRS and US Prescriptions. They can only deny your right to appeal if they have permission 1st from the National authority (US Sailing) SECTION D APPEALS 70 APPEALS AND REQUESTS TO A NATIONAL AUTHORITY 70.1 (a) Provided that the right of appeal has not been denied under rule 70.5, a party to a hearing may appeal a protest committee’s decision or its procedures, but not the facts found. ( A boat may appeal when she is denied a hearing required by rule 63.1. There shall be no appeal from the decisions of an international jury constituted in compliance with Appendix N. Furthermore, if the notice of race and the sailing instructions so state, the right of appeal may be denied provided that (a) it is essential to determine promptly the result of a race that will qualify a boat to compete in a later stage of an event or a subsequent event (a national authority may prescribe that its approval is required for such a procedure); ( a national authority so approves for a particular event open only to entrants under its own jurisdiction; or © a national authority after consultation with the ISAF so approves for a particular event, provided the protest committee is constituted as required by Appendix N, except that only two members of the protest committee need be International Judges. From USS prescriptions: Rule 70.5(a) After rule 70.5(a) add US Sailing prescribes that its approval is required. Go to ussailing.org/racingrules/documents and click the ‘No Appeal’ link for more information or to obtain approval. So this is one of the rules that changing in this manner (No appeal) is highly restricted. I would go right to USS and appeal - the SI of 6.7.1 will not be honored (and they should be ashamed of themselves for trying.) Good luck. Preserve your right to appeal!!!
  4. Chicago Area III

    The SIs for the rally say 10:55. Much different than the NORs and past years I noticed. Wondered why the big discrepancy, but it makes getting it together in the AM easy...
  5. Rules and protest question

    Allen - Please read case 87 As pointed out in this case, you are not required to take action until you realize the other boat is not taking action...By your own admission, when you saw the other boat, you stayed up to avoid and did not change course, feeling this was your best chance to avoid a collision. Use the case as your defense on why you should be exonerated for breaking rule 14. It is clear from the photos that you did not break 15 or 16 (or 13 for that matter) Read the How to Prepare a Protest and a Defense above - and talk about boat speed, distance and time. Good luck, CASE 87 Definitions, Keep Clear Rule 10, On Opposite Tacks Rule 14(a), Avoiding Contact A right-of-way boat need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear. Summary of the Facts The angle of the starting line made it only just possible for a close-hauled boat on starboard tack to cross the line, and most boats approached on port tack. However, S approached on starboard tack from the right-hand end, continually hailing ‘Starboard’ to port-tack boats as they approached. P1 and P2 bore off below S. P3, however, made no attempt to avoid S and struck her amidships at right angles, causing considerable damage. The protest committee disqualified both boats, P3 under rule 10 and S under rule 14. S appealed. 172 Decision Rule 10 required P3 to keep clear of S. Rule 14 required each boat to avoid contact with the other boat if reasonably possible. In P3’s case, rule 14’s requirement to avoid contact with S was consistent with the broader requirement of rule 10 that she allow S to ‘sail her course with no need to take avoiding action’ (see the definition Keep Clear). P3 broke both rule 10 and rule 14. In S’s case, while rule 10 required P3 to keep clear of her, at the same time S was required by rule 14 to avoid contact if it was ‘reasonably possible’ to do so. However, rule 14(a) allowed S to sail her course in the expectation that P3 would keep clear as required, until such time as it became clear that P3 would not do so. In this case, the diagram shows that P3 could readily have borne off and avoided S from a position very close to S. For that reason, the time between the moment it became clear that P3 would not keep clear and the time of the collision was a very brief interval, so brief that it was impossible for S to avoid contact. Therefore, S did not break rule 14. S’s appeal is upheld, and she is to be reinstated.
  6. Rules Question - an odd Rule 18 situation

    Wrong. Read the definition of Fetching. Fetching A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack. A boat that is fetching can be overstood and reaching in, coming in close hauled, or pinching up to, but not past head to wind: she is still fetching the mark if she can pass to windward of it without changing tack. thank-you... btw , 20' boats almost all the time here.. fbinc, so 60' zone.. so not including the situation of laying the mark.. a boat fetching the mark after overstanding can have a boat port tack below it and now the boat fetching must give mark room.. only time a foul occurs is when the port tacker gets in the way and the fetching boat avoids by diving below or going above close hauled... is that correct? No it is not correct. A boat that tacks in the zone while another boat is fetching the mark can never gain mark-room. Rule 18.3 only gives mark-room to the fetching boat, and rule 18.3 switches off rule 18.2 so what rule can you protest with, if the now leward boat tries to force themselves in claiming mark room? I'm not seeing anything, posted so far, that prohibits the leward boat, besides everyone saying they don't get mark room. that's the quandry, what can you take to the room? The defense, if you see the port boat coming, is to point down at them, accelerate (Requires the trimmers to be on the ball) get the inside overlap and claim mark room under 18.3 and ROW under 11. If you miss the mark, they are clearly in violation of 18.3. OR make sure they force you above close hauled (If the jib starts to luff even a little ...)Tactically, you have to hunt for the violation - if you do the natural thing, which is to stay "Up", they can slip in and get away with it. However, at the bar, you run the risk of being accused of being "overly aggressive" .
  7. Rules Question - an odd Rule 18 situation

    Dreaded: Rules 10 and 13 still apply - a boat lee bowing in the zone runs the risk of breaking either of these rules - from a practical standpoint, how close would a lee bow have to be to be in the zone? pretty darn close. If the SB LL boat has to avoid before the tacking boat is on a close hauled course she gets tossed under 13. If she was trying to "shoot the mark" she might never have gone down to close hauled... If the SB LL boat has to go above Close hauled to avoided her (Honoring rule 11 and 14) the tacking boat then breaks 18, so the margin for error on the port tack boat, tacking in the zone is very small. If the tack was close, but ahead of the SB LL boat and the SB LL puts her helm down and gets an inside overlap, 18.3 starts to apply. When the SB LL doesn't make the mark or hits the mark the tacking boat gets tossed... The SB LL boat will probably win in the protest room as long as there is no contact with damage or injury...
  8. Useful and displayable items: Really miss the NOOD and Verve shirts for entire crew (useful and rewarded entire crew for the effort) with the finish place on them. Sailbags... I still use the sailcloth bag I won in 2005. Others bags given to crew members... Brag flags
  9. Chicago<>Port Huron Super Mac History?

    1985 was a fast Chicago to Sarnia race. We finished around 7-8:00 PM on Tuesday in an NM45 Limit Up 32542, owned at the time by Marshall Wright - ColYC. I believe we were 4th in the section. Other boats that raced that year: Heritage, FUJIMO 2; Stars and Stripes, Magic (Who had some customs trouble.) Several people ended up in the hospital from having too much fun in Port Huron. (We had two hospitalized.) The race was downwind to just about the bridge (3/4 OZ spin and blooper until the reef) when a quick rain storm came through. We were close reaching as we finished at MAC and re-set the spin and blooper down Lake Huron. Finished, checked in at SYC, without docking then continued to the river where the drinking commenced. I'm sure I have a rag somewhere that has the race on it...
  10. Chicago Area III

    Mac will require crotch strap or thigh straps on PDFs. They listed this last year as a requirement coming this year. . .
  11. Chicago Area III

    But, was she a virgin? Non-virgins might have angered the Orr gods...
  12. Chicago Area III

    If you re-cast the results in phrf, the top spots stay the same. Those boats that race one design should do better - they are constantly getting feedback on how to make their boats go fast, compared to other like boats. This makes for better racers. The top of the fleet may stay the same or close (In this case boats 1 and 2 change places, but 6th, 7th and 8th under PHRF were 19th 25 and 12th under ORR - it is in the mid fleet, normally handicapped boats, where the largest affect is felt. It would be great if CYA would make an ORR Division and a PHRF division and allow the owners to vote with their feet. (But then CYC would miss out on all the ORR royalties when no one gets an ORR cert because of the cost...(Follow the money)
  13. Chicago Area III

    Looks like someone on port of PHRF heard the same rumor about a PHRF overlay
  14. Chicago Area III

    Too bad - ORR sucks unless you are a Sidney 38, or a Mumm 36, vintage boat...
  15. Chicago Area III

    Just heard a rumor about this year's mac race - something about an LMPHRF section/overlay on the race. Anybody hear anything?