Tcatman

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About Tcatman

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  1. Tcatman

    How to score one class with two divisions?

    Yup.... lots of paper... (you can set it up with sailwave and alias and scoring systems etc etc) Every interaction on the water between two boats considers the impact on the overall and the fleet score... So you have to know the scoresheet. How you value and calculate each interaction changes in race 1 compared to race 10. It can be as complicated as you care for or not complicated at all. As a scorekeeper.... I have a lot of experience scoring a handicap fleet overall and then calculating a one design score for a small subset of boats. (Basically Fleet Scoring) You get a lot of feedback.... (that I don't think got redirected to their competitors on the water). So, when the one design competition was more valuable then the overall competition... I got gripes... about... the competition as not being a lot of fun... blah blah... ratings... blah blah... and turnout gradually went down. In hind sight... I should have told the one design guys they were not a fleet... just a division within handicap and not rescored them as a fleet.... When one of the fleets gets small....the competition is gone and participation craters.... rarely are the two fleets equal in number and talent! I did not understand the impact on competition of my practice and the software makes it sooo easy to do. (FYI, the worlds will score two fleets on two separate courses to preserve the competition) Eventually I scored some big opti events and finally understood the wisdom of Opt, Red White and Blue scoring.. I agree with lamorak about the final outcomes.. I know most final results would not have changed (nature of the pecking order) ... BUT... the structure of the competition would be fair and all boats racing each other all the time would be the optimal competitive structure for the game. (to be fair... I really don't know if it makes a difference in the long run) I also get the fleet option as a sailor. ... my bias would also be for two 25 boat one design fleets because that is how I have raced all my life.. There is one additional factor that you understand scoring optis... Watching kids cry at seeing a score of 30 overall in a 100 boat fleet and the happiness over the 4th place in their 10 boat white division was an eye opener about competition and perception... (parents were even worse!) So... the popularity of low numbers (4th with a score of 250) in your final scorecard is another human factor. Nobody wants to go home and say... i scored 10 25s for 250 points and WON! Nevertheless..... one vote for the opti scoring system. Even if the impact is marginal or unmeasurable...it seems to have the most integrity. I would love to hear from a judge if one class two fleet scoring creates issues in say rewarding redress for assisting a boat in another fleet? YMMV
  2. Tcatman

    How to score one class with two divisions?

    Good point on a fluke result... The same argument could be made on the impact of a DSQ in a 100 boat fleet versus a 50 boat fleet. I started out strongly favoring separate scoring because of the large impact of an outlier in the scoring that you note. I thought the two fleets made for a better game. Today, I favor the Opti solution. IMO, the downside of just the possibility that the game is somehow... no matter how small is "unfair" is much worse then the down side of dealing with an out of the blue fluke result. A wiff of unfairness or bias undermines support for the game.... the crux of the matter is your point. ... "doubtful and easily evident"... assumes that in any routine event... the issue is raised, facts are found, and guilty beyond reasonable doubt actually happens.. At the amateur level... I doubt this happens... more likely... you take your toy and go home. .... I think human nature can manage... "damn!... something strange happened." With... Ok. that is sailboat racing. I also get the "more interesting fleet management" point... I just don't think the upside outweighs the down side. Thanks for the thoughts. ( I am testing my thinking on the matter)
  3. The A class is a development class with a single measurement rule. Foiling technology has advanced so much that half the A class fleet will foil while the other half are conventional cats. Essentially, the sailors want to think of this as one class with two divisions. There is a large skill set needed to foil the boat around the course effectively. so the two division are thoroughly mixed on the race course. The recent NA's scored the entire fleet. one through approx 50 and awarded trophies then each division one through approx 25 and awarded trophies. The Opti class scores the opti fleet overall and awards trophies and then scores three divisions sorted by age (red, white, and blue) and awards trophies. They keep the overall scoring when determining your division score.... (eg the white fleet winner would have all first place white fleet scores of 5, 10 and 15 for a total score of 30... tops in white fleet.) The A class NAs re-scores each division.... 1 to 25... essentially each division is scored as its own fleet. (resulting in final positions possibly changing from the overall score) It seems to me that the Opti system maintains the integrity of competition for all the boats in the fleet. Their can be NO issues, between two boats interacting on the course with one saying to the other... Hey... let my pass... you are not racing me in my "division" Or.... let me pass..... I can slow down your competitor in your division.... If you let a pass go through... you hurt your final score overall and within your division... so the game is fair. Comments? Second question, Given that you are going to rescore the two divisions for trophies... How should judging protests factor in penalties and redress? Since times are not collected...how fair is it to award redress taking into account the overall finish and the division finish. (Seems like it could be a real challenge to be fair). Comments?
  4. look up the hobie high points standings. that will give you an accurate report on hobie class activity within your travel range. A class and F18 activity might not be centralized in one spot.. Houston Yacht club would be a good place to check out for cats. Also check out the fleets running the great texas 300 race.
  5. Tcatman

    Hervey Bay A Class Worlds

    Ahh.... class culture.... VS the way its supposed to work. When I got my boat, I was educated by senior class members that in the A Class... they don't protest... everyone does the right thing on the water... IF... a protest MIGHT seem to be pending... they urged an unofficial mediation process.. It was supposed to be SO much nicer to race then the other classes ie T's and Hobie fleets. Hell... the notion of getting a judge lined up for an event was not common. Does it work?... Hell no! I watched a colleague have an epic highly public melt down at Isleomorada after repeated fouls went uncorrected. So, The culture is what it is. IMO, I if you aren't going to self police your own fleet.... Chances are... you are not going after a foul in another fleet... Your point is well made....and represents a clear universal culture... The A class reality that I experienced was a lot more clubby. I characterized the psychology as... "I am not going to be an asshole....." YMMV. To your point about a smart judge figuring out the proper solution for redress... Absolutely... I was Just proposing some alternatives that would minimize the number of issues and mitigate the noise that follows redress decisions in the fleet. For two divisions sharing the same start and course, IMO, its best that all boats be racing each other. Human nature impacts the perception of the stakes here between the NA's (pre Worlds) and one of 20 classes at the XXX annual regatta week. Indeed, the speed differences are their major concern... 30 knots per boat on a crowded race course with vast skill differences is a big change to the cross or DUCK DUCK DUCK conversation ... All the more so on a single hander where the dialog is between you and that little voice in your head...
  6. Tcatman

    Hervey Bay A Class Worlds

    Thanks for the info... Two fleets on two courses manages the integrity of the competition nicely. A good decision. If you go with one course... How do you manage protests between the two fleets? While the racing rules of sailing will resolve all the issues ... It seems like you are being an asshole for protesting some one in another fleet.... the scoring redress awarded is likely to be contentious no matter how hard you try to be fair. If you are running one course.... Have you considered one fleet, two divisions.... scored like the Opti class with Red, White and Blue divisions (USA version) The advantage is that all competitors on the course are racing one another (1 through 100) and protests and redress effect the entire fleet. (Basically you keep your finish position as your score and then calculate throwouts, ocs, etc) The psychology is better as well.... you don't have... the HEY... we are not racing each other... don't be a dick, let me pass.. interaction. No matter how that interaction plays out... there is an impact on the rest of the competitors as well as how you sail against the fleet. TIA
  7. Tcatman

    Hervey Bay A Class Worlds

    Are the Worlds scoring two fleets independently with a single start like the Aussie NA's?
  8. Tcatman

    RS Cat 14 Question

    Center traveler.... sheet main hard and get speed up... going to weather...... Don't tack from reach to reach. Put helm over... leave jib sheeted to backwind... when boat is head to wind... uncleat and ease main sheet about 6 inches. and cleat. complete tack... release jib and sheet in jib then main. Gybing in breeze going slow will kill you. Dart 18's and Dart 20's aka Stampedes circa late 80s No US importer after that. Perhaps Canada has a few.... boat was designed well after dart 18s, 20s , TSX (20 with a chute) or a Hawk... (early F18) Hobie Getaway is a 16 foot rotomolded Hobie for rec sailors... simple boat that has a forward tramp as well. lots of volume for lots of weight. Hobie 17 is a single handed race boat. Hobie 17 sports add a jib for a rec market... BUT not enough hull volume to carry much weight.... not a great option for 2 or 3 adults. Good luck.
  9. Second what rawhide said.. Good luck.... I think you have the right approach with the club scene focus. Hopefully, the US Sailors will see the value of building a club racing scene... even if it might cost some opportunities on the travel OD circuit to build this.
  10. Tcatman

    The fine balance of Family and Sailing

    So... keep the boat flat... don't sail in breeze where you can't keep the boat flat.... My wife KNEW I could control the boat... if she was getting wet... she would let me fly the hull to keep her dry. Find a cat that you can right by yourself... or get a righting bag and the stress level will go away.... (assuming the kids swim and wear jackets). Find a club with facilities (meaning NICE bathroom), never flip the boat with her on it, and find a beach near the club/at the club that allows you to go off and on for short sails..... epic three hour tours are for 60s tv shows in this day and age. Oh... and give up hope that one day... some day... she will like it.... Never gonna happen.... at best she tolerates...and likes the beach part of beach cat sailing. now the kids....they will have more fun getting wet then staying comfy in the day sailor with a safe picnic basket. Don't compromise....give them something to sail on the boat.... you can always power assist while they are growing...
  11. SamC.... I am not forgetting the west coast... It's the other side of the continent and I have no history with the local scene..... Given that it was the center of Hobie world back in the day (read huge travel circuit with no Yacht club participation) that leaves US Sailing which used to have a West coast OCR.... I think at Mission bay..as one of the few clubs in the country with mast up storage and a good club racing scene out west.... You are missing my point... A strong club racing scene that operates independently of and is not cannibalized by the travel fleet taking off or taking a pass on putting the boat together because they travel in two weeks is proposed as a Solution going forward... Unfortunately... its not something that cat sailors have really enjoyed over the last 40 years given our non yacht club origins. Back in the day... leaving Friday evening and returning late sunday night for a two day event was the regatta life... in 2018 even the big boats with bunks for 6 plan on one day races because of the time commitments. For boats with motors in Annapolis you can draw fleets from several clubs and marinas to the race area .... so its basically club racing.... with out a common bar scene. THAT is what we need for cats.... Beer cans on weeknights are extremely popular but the geographic reach is limited to locals near the club. So... my answer to the TIME TIME TIME problem is a local club scene that gives you 3 to 4 hours of 10 boats on the line... no matter what every sunday... The regatta circuit for racers hasn't really changed in 40 years... just sayin... there are other models. RE Hobie 16s and like boats... Yup... not really interesting to go race the spin boats... much less the fast sloops.... AND its the likely entry for a rec sailor into a racing scene. So... you need clubs that give the H16s and the like that same experience... 10 boats on the start line... week in and week out for decent racing. RE WRSC.... umm well... I waited and waited for the club to offer what I needed... that strong club race scene once a week. They insisted on strict one design and the class culture was... an email chain..that usually went out on Friday.. HEY... guess what... its a club race this sunday... who is going... 3 boats might pipe up.. ... but two have to leave early.... um... OK... but No thanks... not what I am talking about. It may be one of those... welp... you can't get there... from here situations in the states.. Nobody wants to kill off a weekend regattta circuit and getting agreement on a single club to get a critical mass of boats and a core race schedule with real commitments is not trivial. Its tough.
  12. _Alive Thanks, trying to get a sense of what club racing is all about in Oz and how that supports or is undermined by the more competitive racing in the travel circuit. IMO, a perfect CLUB racing scene would be about 20 similar boats on the beach (in your case high performance spin boats) who get 10 boats out on the water for the weekly, 4 hour race period on Saturday or Sunday, A second fleet of classic Hobies would also race on the course. It sounds like you are half way there at your club.... (assuming everyone is up for the club race). More the point... you see a path to get some of the rec sailors at the club to come out and give racing a try. Is my ideal scenario representative of a good number of clubs in Oz? The US has never had a wide spread catamaran clubs with a big club racing tradition. The handful of traditional clubs are Roten Point in Conn with Hobies, C class, Open Class, Lake Hopatcong, NJ with A class, Detroit YC (torandos once upon a time) and Miami YC (Tornado's and others). those are about it from my memory... Given the isolated pockets and large size of Oz... what's a typical travel circuit look like for an F18 racer or a H16 racer who is serious about competing? In the states, The enormous Hobie Fleets in days of old were so large they would by pass Yacht clubs and take over public parks and they ran their own show for years and years. So... not much Yacht club tradition here in any active racing classes The rec sailors would point their vehicle to the regatta site and play in C fleets.... really no different then pointing to the state park launch. Mast up storage was found on undeveloped beach front... never at yacht clubs with small boat parks. For the last 20 years or so... most racing has been about the travel circuit of 2 day regattas on the weekends. What survives today (East Coast USA) is. The Hobies have an active circuit that requires a 4 hour drive for Mid atlantic racing. The A cats have an Atlantic coast circuit of 3 events that requires an 8 hour drive or so and a winter racing Florida circuit. The F18s have a New England travel circuit that requires about a 4 hour drive or so ... Florida has a travel circuit as do the southern states. CRAM and CRAW have an active travel circuit around Lake Michigan. Basically... if you want to go racing... its the same as it was 40 years ago... you keep the boat in your back yard and rent a yacht club who is hosting a regatta. So... finding new cat racers to join fleets is rarer then hens teeth.... Perhaps a club racing circuit where you could start out and get your feet wet racing could get some rec sailors into the dark side. as you are planning would work ..... Sadly, I can think of one club that has a weekly, one day a week end Club race where you get 10 boats or so...(Lake Hopatcong for A class). Several other clubs have a local weeknight series for an hour or so race. (West River SC and Syracuse). The core problem is that you don't see ANY rec sailors joining in with the travel fleet to go racing because that is a huge jump and not much fun for them. So... just looking for a light in the tunnel based on your experience of the Oz scene! TIA
  13. _Alive You said your objective was to rebuild the T fleet at the club level ... I am curious about the balance of club racing versus the travel circuit in Oz. It sounds like you expect your T 's to sail handicap at the club level and the fun factor per buck is a winner. No pretense of building a travel circuit of T's in Oz (pay no mind to all of the tilt trailer pics)..... (Same story in England) So, do the F18s have strong local clubs and a handful of members travel.... Or do the F18 sailors just do the travel circuit and essentially rent a club for the weekend. what about the A class and Hobie 16 classes? If you live in a major Oz city... are there clubs that you can join, keep your boat rigged and go racing every other weekend or so? In the US Yacht clubs (back in the popular days of cat racing) very very few clubs were home to one design cat fleets (Detroit YC had Tornados, Roten Point YC for Hobie 21s and C class of all things.). circa 2K or so.... there was a move to join Y clubs with mast up storage and club events. Today, I can't think of a yacht club that you would point to as a Highlight for classic cat CLUB racing on the east coast. I can think of Sandy Hook BCC ( a beach cat club North New Jersey with a handful of H16 travel racers among their 100 boats with 4 to 12 sailors in three club events this year and Lake Hopatcong (A class with a handful of travel sailors) and a Sunday weekly series for 3 months come to mind. Some clubs like West River SC (MD) with a couple of A cat and F18 travel sailors have a tuesday night steeplechase type club race while Syracuse NY also have a weeknight club race for H16s. Weeknight racing is limited to racers geographically close to the club tho.... It would seem that Yacht club multihull fleets peaked a few years ago and several are just a shell of themselves. Most of the keen racers are travel racers who belong to paper yacht clubs and essentially borrow water access with their race circuit. Is the Oz culture notably different then the US in 2018 so that you see a good future for Tcat club racing?
  14. Tcatman

    A Class Worlds - Classic Division

    As I said..... the US created the intergalactic class at the national level. I found real value in the International Hobie Class association way of running things and made the case. Obviously different then your way. Anyway... the US foolishness wore me out... the regatta scheduled dropped to three regional events and my patience for half assed organization is minimal these days.... too many other boats to sail.
  15. Tcatman

    A Class Worlds - Classic Division

    Acat... you are correct.... we agree on the big picture here.. We disagree on the leadership from the world association. I would reference the IHCA which published and distributed an official set of rules at every local run hobie regatta run throughout the USA. There is great value in standardization.... If the local OA wanted to make changes... they just posted a change notice (usually about marks). The IHCA made a point that the standard rules established expectations for a Points regatta and a sailor could just show up without having to figure out a quirky idiosyncratic attempt by the PRO who is running his first regatta in years using the same paperwork they had 4 years ago. Mind you... as a US sailor... I suffered trying to wrap my head around such things as the A class Intergalactic division along the way. and yet... it seems to not be standardized. .... It seems that A class sailors don't spend a lot time on this organization and race management / competition thing. You highlighted the problem.... Somebody... (national, local, club, or a Pissed off asshole sailor) should do it... and of course... that means nobody.. based on one's interpretation of the class guidelines... . an OA could simply run two classes sharing a start line....Or run two classes and two starts. ... or run one class with scoring divisions. Again... you need a published consensus for the fleet as well as the OA. My solution... Write up the basic NOR and SI's, get the IHCA stamp of approval and allow that "Somebody" to forward the text for inclusion in the race documents.... I assume that they can forward an attachment... The happy result is that it creates an expectation of what to expect at the regatta and make it easy for the OA to meet the needs of the class they invite. Much easier to warn an OA that changes may have unintended consequences.. so think any changes through....... Take our guidelines and write a NOR and SIs. is extra work for no reason. Last point on expectations... I was always besieged by the larger (stature) A class sailors who got Pissed off... when the breeze came up.. and a large chunk of the fleet chose to DNS and so the Race Committee runs a token heavy air race for a fraction of the fleet and comes in off the water. They want me to do something... especially when the published scoring system decided to score DNS's as finishers plus one... not Entrants plus one. OOPS! Again... its much cleaner if the expectations for wind ranges, number of races, scoring, divisions, etc etc are down in writing and reinforced by the class fleet captain of the day. Nothing has to be binding... just a coherent rule set that works together and serves as guidance! YMMV.