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About Tcatman

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  1. this and your other comments point to the culture problem .... Page's original game plan was to show significant progress in this quad.... Not knowing the culture in the USA and the college system... I thought that was optimistic.... The bottom line... he was dumped right before the rubber hits the road... .... the issue IMO would be as you noted....Ours is a mediocre to half assed culture (if the goal was winning medals) Likewise on coaching...... god only knows if they are good enough... but certainly you need consistency to develop anyone...including the coaches themselves as coaches. Collecting pointers from rock star elite coaches is not going to work programmatically. When the opportunity to get paid big bucks on a gran prix campaign shows up.... off the coaches go.... You point to the results from the last two rounds of youth worlds... I agree... that this performance was a programmatic jump forwards in results. I though Page was seeing results.... now did any of these sailors project to be better then very very good world class racers.... to actual podium finishers.... I don't know... Of course, the worry was the transition through college.. when the rest of the world is going for it but in the USA.... we can only loosely be seen as developing our talent.... Was there push back from parents and the powers that be that Page's demands were too onerous? So... as long as the USA is happy to pay for a team with no chance of winning.... a small group of sailors who go for it every quad. They will be thrilled to take the money and play the USA game and be an Olympian. As a fan....all we have to root for is hope for lightning in a bottle.... Paine pulled one out on the last quad.... Sadly, Not much of a fan experience hoping for a miracle. You wind up just cheering the damn flag on the boat every 4 years. God only knows where the leadership points to next... I honestly don't know what they can try.... Do you have any thoughts that are not more shuffling of deck chairs on the titanic?
  2. Oh!... goodie... another reboot on our 8 year cycle for no forward progress ...... The circle the wagons, everything is GREAT, is a common theme..... In this system, you simply can not rock the boat and complain because your financial support will melt away. We don't need the gossip and drama unless there is some major screw-up that needs to be rooted out by making it public. ... My hunch... nothing obviously wrong here.. SO.......what now? OK... I agree with your handicapping.... Three medal round appearances and Maybe a medal is another lousy result! If one reads the tea leaves... Malcom told US Sailing...NOPE.... not going to get any better then this for this quad and PROBABLY no better for the next quad... I was too optimistic and I don't see it happening with these resources and this environment! .... US Sailing.. said... well that can not be... we need a change in leadership... AGAIN! So... here are my big questions...Yes... we have a pipeline... they are working hard... and... SO... the question is... do they have the raw talent OR is the talent pool simply mediocre.... and the results now and in the future are predictable. The flip side of that coin is... OK... is our coaching pool simply mediocre and just cant get US sailors up into medal contention or at least the medal round.. After 8 years... the results suggest ordinary talent leads to ordinary results. What does the future look like (realistically)? Would you care to offer an opinion on the US talent pool 6 to 3? Is there anyone that causes others to sit up and take notice... (a Lebron james if you will). How much hope should we allow our selves? My sense in multihulls is ... meh... (in theory Bora should have been able to be in the mix in quad 2 but injury and events conspired... so they started over and Gibbs has done at least as well as Guliari did last quad. beyond this... more like the spirit is willing .... So, in the USA... the emperor's s clothes are always fabulous... No one inside the USA system will publicly state their hard nosed opinion because jobs don't go to the naysayers.. The sailing press also needs access and so you won't get any hard nose reporting from them either. It sucks to be a fan! It seems to be crystal clear where we stand....What does the future look like? and Who might be able / willing to offer some insight into our prospects?
  3. Who looks like they have a shot at a medal? How much can you expect 6 months of training to make in climbing the world pecking order these days? What was the impact of the enormous leadership shakeup with Malcom Page leaving or being forced out ? Who is running the show now and what changes have they made? Any chance we make the medal round in all disciplines? The PR propaganda about all of this upset from US Sailing is .... unbelievable!
  4. umm ... This point is the deal breaker for Wess..... Yes... the class charges a class fee for the class legal equipment like the sail because this is the class membership approved mechanism to fund and ensure integrity in the competition. For the elite sailors and all full out competitors competitive integrity IS the most important function of the class association. Either you manage the integrity of the competition OR the cheaters will find an angle and undermine the game. The class long ago approved the Olympic status and so rigor of managing the integrity of the competition went through the roof. (The cheaters don't go away when the prize is now priceless) The costs to ensure the level playing field beyond the handwave called SMOD were measurable. The fact that this cost is forced on a user/non class member is the Choice issue for Wes. Wes argues in true libertarian fashion that NO>>>> he does not have choice. In his view... choice should be BOTH low membership fees...and NO surcharges on the spare parts sold. In his view, He is being forced by outside forces to pay a surcharge AND were it left to the marketplace of old... the SMOD business, aka a privately owned monopoly, would not buckle under the domination of the World Sailing Organization/IOC. The rules, regulations and FRAND rules that manage the integrity of the competition steal value from the business owner and the consumer. The good ol days of Laser Class standards and builder good will were good enough for the level of competition and he opposes the changes.. This POV is fair enough BUT the class members continually choose to upgrade the laser game and choose to REMAIN Olympic. Wes's charge of bad faith actors and big goverment like strong arm bs is not accurate or a fair description. When libertarians are confronted with the actual real world... the unbridaled choice of the individual usually gives way to the collective action of the class towards a shared objective.. The fact is that people "most invested" in the class voted to pursue the shared objective of the highest level of integrity in competition. They voted on the best way to fund the equipment integrity of competition. The costs were put on the business owner and the consumer BY THE RACING SAILOR GROUP. In the good ol days, the bits supplied by the dealer were by definition class legal and then class membership was nominal and likely repurposed into the keg of beer that season. Today. you have a problem when the club sailor shows up at his club and the standard entry form you sign declares that you will certify that your boat is class legal and that you are a class member. NOW the club sailor with non approved bits and no current class membership is going to sign off on a white lie and in order to play a game.... he drops a bit of his integrity in the process. In a sport that depends on self policing...the structure the laser class has built has a cost. Mambo noted how the Viper class manages this... They DON"T require class membership to play. They don't divide the sailors into class/non class...or. us/them ....or the kiss of death... Legal vs Illegal racers. . they don't create second class sailors. They don't label sailors as using ILLEGAL stuff.... (no matter the definition and language used.... the sailor hears "cheater"). They managed the integrity of their competition by other mechanisms. Wes would be better off arguing the class rules should be officially suspended for club level racing and non championship level weekend regattas world wide. The old wink wink ah....look the other way treatment has a cost. Half assed is not a winning strategy. If you get the structure of the game clearly spelled out then you actually create a free choice for the club laser sailor that he can make with complete integrity for himself and the larger community in the game of laser racing. If they come to share the value of rigorous equipment control then they will purchase the legal stuff and join the class and comply with the entry requirement that they are in good faith... class legal for the higher level regatta..
  5. Ok.... you crushed that answer.... . Providing the tools to grow the fleet at the local level is THE compelling reason a club sailor would join. The second element that came though and I want to comment on is that your viper notion of CLASS is expansive and treats the dues paying member as a valued member of the Viper club. (small c.... in the sense of a a club of viper lovers) The bottom up nature that you reinvent each year adds incredible value to the notion of Membership. Class membership is not a duty that you are fulfilling because you have to... Class /club membership in Viper is something that you truly belong to.... not just a member with the card in your pocket.. Final point....I get a strong sense of how your rule set was designed to honor the integrity of the competition. Somehow... I don't think your racers worry about any issues in this area... The laser experience is a real warning for what happens when the rank and file begin to worry. Blah Blah stating... I believe all the boats are the same won't cut it now. I noted Gouv's post referencing a very talented engineer and experienced builder as being on the team and important to their next step.... Indeed.... that is what it takes to restore confidence in the integrity of the laser rule set and build.. You have to tip your hat to the rule writers who gave you such a good foundation. I was beyond impressed.... thanks for your serious reply!!! Indeed... you are NOT a typical class....and it is fantastic to know this!!! SOCK PUPPET! ... Wess's libertarian instincts would never generate this thread.... He will just bang on about the cash the elites are snatching from his wallet! for the sail. (grin)
  6. Nicely done Mambo. A very good traditional reply. However, this question still begs an explicit answer in follow up "What is the value to the club viper owner?" What should the club sailor expect from their class dues. What gets them to say... . Yeah... I find XXXX of value to me when your answer above is not compelling? Your bar tab analogy works both ways.... Why would they not look at the national dues as just a subsidy for those racers who want to go off and spend a week racing.... eg... why are they pitching in 55 bucks for the bar round at the NA's that they have no interest in attending and certainly won't be drinking at? No offense... but they don't want to pay for your bar tab... WHEN THEY ARE NOT THERE! as a matter of fact... they resent being thought of as free loaders when they simply don't want the class offer and think the 55 bucks is better served on their own sailing. Pay for your own entertainment thank you! The usual comeback is... HEY.... we are only talking about 55 bucks... you will spend more on gas to the event.... come on pay up.... ....again it begs the point.... It could be 1 dollar in fees. What is the commitment? The psychology of sorting sailors into members and non members has a cost..... (something your viper class does seem to manage by not requiring membership and NOT tagging them as free loaders) The alternative model would be a simple fee for service model. Why would they not pay for all of that service above when they DO decide to attend the NA's when they are so inclined. Do away with the notion of membership and simply call it the Class Administrative fee. (pro tip.... when the sailing class collects the majority of their membership dues at the NAs.....its a membership in name only.... it really is an administrative fee for the regatta and people don't call out the naked emperor). IMO you need a much better reason then you or any one on the forums has offered so far. Next point concerns the notion of volunteers in the sport and all that they do and juxtaposing this idea with dues/membership. Your words... . you are" funding the good work of volunteers:..... translation... you are paying below market for a service that you want? Now this is actually insulting. Volunteers for running sailboat racing are not duty bound to serve.... We have to assume they enjoy the activity and service and do so.... voluntarily (see how that works) because they enjoy doing it .... In my experience NOTHING crushes volunteers more then placing a value on their contribution.... Volunteers are PRICELESS Sailors simply could not afford the PRICE of their sport any other way. Putting any value on volunteer service with a membership fee is the road to getting the finger and a final see ya! because the pay simply sucks. When the class attempts to leverage tthe value added by their volunteers as a reason for membership... ie what they sell.. ... I think of the numerous bs scams we see every day. I will say it again... volunteers are priceless... don't leverage them and don't screw them over be seeing them as anything other then PRICELESS. Now class volunteers screw up too.... they can half ass it just as well as the pros. I lost it with my class association after they spent money on something extremely stupid and it spiraled into an absolute embarrassment. Ok... a mistake was made... BUT after two years of asking for the class accounting statements be published.... I had it. so... So not a nickle more based on my standard. (And they also could not find a compelling answer for what value they delivered to the club sailor) Final thought... most racers also take a turn at volunteering to keep the sport going and I don't see much value in comparing volunteer service as a club sailor cleaning out the junior's sail bin and chairing a jury.. The value of both efforts is priceless and there for cannot be compared. yeah I know that is human nature to compare and evaluate but I don't get how the idea that we have Lots of volunteer hours in service of the class can be used to argue or be a reason why I should join the class as a club sailor when I do the bit I can it my club level. Thanks for your thoughts
  7. Tcatman

    Brexit WTF, WTF

    Nah.... not that at al!. Karl Rove on he Fox weekend show stated that Trump wants to spin the BS of NAFTA 2.0/USMCA, China cease and desist/Phase I and in 6 months... a buy our Chlorinated chicken/UK trade deal as Trump doing great things for the economy. I would think that your crowd will have no problem with cooking up something trivial that can be spun as a great victory.... Will this deal follow the pattern and do no harm?
  8. Good point... true or not... the old system had the appearance of integrity. All lasers were the same... trust us... Racers by and large thought that this was good enough. NOW... Anything that looks like a laser and jumps through the class hoops is legal... so what is the impact? IMO, the professional racer won't care.... He will acquire and train on the boat built by the provider of boats for the major competition. With Provided boats... the Olympic dog is satisfied. At the national level....with BYOB ... you will only have an issue if the black swan new boat wins the event with someone jumping up in the pecking order. The majority builder of new lasers in the NA fleet will likely have the national top sailors on them so. the black swan result is Unlikely... so not a problem. At the club level... the race result noise generated by weekend wariors is enormous and so a new boat won't do anything but generate a talking point at the bar... so not a problem without a major upset in the pecking order.. At the regional level a serious amateur racer will perk up at any new boat that shows up at a regatta and if that sailor makes a significant jump upwards in the pecking order.... questions will be raised... the result will seem significant... a data point is not evidence. No answers will exist ... bullshit will fly.. Ongoing participation because of the bullshit... ??? How do you restore the integrity of the competition? (note.... See Houston Astros's. World Series win ....the cheaters still have their rings!) Does the ILCA have the reputation left to restore the fig leaf of integrity? Other classes manage this... and they don't look like that guy you point to..... What is needed to restore the appearance of the integrity of the competition? I can't think of another racing class having gone down this exact path with builders refusing to play the game. .... anybody have a historical example in mind?
  9. Yes, they own the intellectual property of the game they have support from their membership for. if they require a red rose taped to the mast.... It's the rule... its the game..... I think the context I was asking about was the intellectual property of the boat itself. I believe Rodney March assigned the rights to the design to the T class itself. (I could be wrong here). who owns the design of the 5o5... the Viper, the Lightning.... the snipe etc. I have been told.... that the class owns these rights and this protects me as a boat owner interested in racing..... The argument was that the class leadership and its constitution controlled the game.... not the builder.... and subject to contract rules... the class could sanction other builders.... or measure boats in. good... bad ... indifferent ... was in the eye of the sailor. This sounds like what most of the disaffected laser sailors want or expected they had....minus the measurement hassle. Conversely, I know that Hobie cat owns the design for all of their cats and like other SMOD including Laser... they have a deal with the international class that controls lots of things. (a particularly contentious time in the USA involved sanctioned class events partnered with other multihulll class's.) Independent companies produced the same class of boats until Hobie consolidated under one corporate entity. Despite ups and downs over many years... this reality was good enough for serious recreational racing.... I suspect an Olympic slot for the Hobie 16 would have driven enormous changes in this reality beyond the addition of truly elite competitors and the onset of professional racing on Hobie 16s or Hobie Tigers (both submitted for selection) Sussing out responsibility for the current state of affairs between Olympic demands , builder actions, and the class association.... (not the same as the average laser sailor) is a religious argument. Providing the consideration for the role of the Olympic dog is added .... then I agree with you completely... (I sleep better knowing the class owns the IP of the boat when I choose to spend time and energy building a class of sailors on the water).... If I am in the game for a 4 year olympic quad.... who cares about this crap!. I walk away from Laser the day the competition ends.... no wonder we can't find agreement on what the facts tell us. What each of us values is completely different.
  10. Tcatman

    Olympic qualifying regattas

    NOTHING about the Olympics is about fairness.... it is entirely about medals and who gets them. Point. Qualifying the country means your country gets one of the fixed number of slots in the events. The Geographic qualifiers were put in place so that rich first world countries did not suck up those finite number of slots.....(eg all EU countries). Each country determines how they pick their sailors for the single slot they have earned. It does not have to be an open competition... Coaches could select the team for any reason.... good, bad or indifferent. There are always loop holes... When ISAF dropped the Tornado Class proscribed min Wind speed for a race for the China games.... The constraint that the class used for fairness was removed since the class had no minimum weight limit.... So... inquiring minds gossiped and wondered if you could train up a featherweight for a crew and grab a big advantage in the light air venue. did not happen... BUT a country could have taken a shot at the medal that way. The US shot the moon on their Code 0 rather then a spin and fiinshed DFL. Point being... its ONLY about medals. Nope... what is UNFAIR is for a country to qualify for the games and then refuse to pay the cash to send their team. When the game is dollars for medals..... your 11th ranked team has no shot at the medal.... why spend good money? See Aus Womans 49ner team who did not race and I think Canadians were on the fence about their N17 team before they finally sent them.
  11. Tcatman

    Brexit WTF, WTF

    Obama framed the closing argument in the last American election in our de facto Two Party system as.... you have a choice.... Chicken or Fish. Well.... we democratically chose CHICKEN but were handed a constitutional decision of FISH. Why? Because many voters ignored this reality and voted third party thinking that there was a message being sent by their vote AND they were righteously voting their conscience. Of course, there is no one who listens... much less does anything with their protest vote.... The reality is that by not voting for chicken or fish... these folks accept the winner and they need to STFU about these last 3 years (or come to terms with their actions) Obama used the word... "choice"..... not the word "decide" and while both actions result in a selection being made.... a decision means you weigh factors... kill off factors and select on the factors that remain. Nothing says... you have to like the decision being made and you can make a mistake in evaluating your options. A choice is an exercise in free will.... You consider all of the factors, weigh them, etc etc but then you set aside this process and choose freely.... because you simply choose. IMO, there is much more freedom and peace of mind when you consciously and affirmativley choose the selection.... at the end of the day.... it is what it is.... and it is what it is not... and you choose both. This sounds like you are forced to make a decision.... Consider the power and freedom available when you select by standing in the space of Choosing. Now... I have to admit.... the complexity of first past the post and your parliamentary system make it a lot more complicated!
  12. Tcatman

    Regatta Participation Vent

    You are missing the point.... It is not about how much time do you need to put on an event... The goals are ..Protect the volunteers so that they are financially covered AND feel that they are helping the game. Two. Motivate Sailors to make a commitment.... It makes a difference when you put the event on your calendar that is paid for. Three...the public list of competitors gets some positive feedback with increased turnout. .... No doubt.... you can register an entire event using paper and cash on Sat morning and have the proper papers out to the PRO with enough volunteers but that doesn't maximize the fun factor
  13. Tcatman

    Regatta Participation Vent

    Not sure if we talking about the same kind of events. I distinguish between the local travel circuit that the OP referenced... ie a max 2 to 3 hour drive which comprises his normal regatta schedule of a two day weekend 5 to 10 times a season. The entry fee is less then 100 bucks for a two person boat and an onsite registration SURCHARGE of 20 bucks is notable given the budget but not onerous to the fair weather sailor evaluating their options Friday night. This is a very different circumstance then a major event requiring time off and extending over the work week and real money and commitment to participate.,.; People are creatures of habit..... It helps enormously if the clubs in the region settle on the drop dead date and time....(as with all things sailor involved... community action is hard) but it does get all of the positive factors in building participation in alignment. I explain the need for Wed night pre registration for Sat morning as "don't be an asshole". Food has to be ordered on Thursday morning for Friday delivery for Saturday party. If you want volunteers to put on events..... then you need to make their lives stress free and honor their service. The club is doing this event once a year.... and one bad year of mismanagement.... (race screw ups or Sailors don't show up) makes it hard to keep the event successful if the volunteers feel taken advantage of. Even tho the social contract has changed over time... It is still volunteers making these weekend events happen. .... Honor their service. If you think you hired them to run your will have doomed the sport! Final point on the role of a fleet captain doing all of the one on one hand holding to get a turnout in your class (been there... done that).... Thank you!!!.... But..... You should also recognize that you are managing a small clique.... The point of the pre registered list of classes and sailors is to draw in racers who are NOT part of the clique... The basic idea of an annual invitational regatta is that it is NOT about the local club/clique but an open invitation to all to participate. The winning idea is to grow the sport of racers by drawing the recreational sailor into the game. The psychology of the invitation is important. Pre registration is all that we have these days. Hobie Alter figured the psychology out and marketed Hobie ... A fleets, B fleets and C Fleets to manage the competition levels and importantly... the NON clique nature of the weekend was essential... Hobie sailing was DIFFERENT then Yacht Club sailing. Hell.... monetizing the Hobie Lifestyle made him a fortune!
  14. Tcatman

    Regatta Participation Vent

    Ah... you are basically discovering the difference between being in a club and participating in your club event as part of your club responsibilities/privilege and simply purchasing a regatta service for your personal entertainment.. Back Back Back in the day.... Clubs ran events for their members and the exclusion of others (non members) was part of the point of it all.... Membership has it's privileges was the point of creating a YACHT club in the first place ... (see blu blazer culture) Then, clubs decided to offer reciprical privileges and extended regatta services to Peer clubs.... again... part of the point was to keep things exclusive. Eventually yacht racing regional organizations were formed BY THE YACHT CLUBS and the reciprical Racing only privileges were extended to all members of yacht clubs that belonged to the organization. The CBYRA bylaws (Chesapeake Bay RSA) required that a club must host a regatta that members from other clubs would want to attend or be denied membership to the RYA or be booted out of the association.... Time marched forward and then you had far to many regattas on the schedule and not enough racers. All of the club based philosophy underlying our game has simply faded into memory. Indeed, the requirement that you belong to a member club in order to participate is now a simple fee for service/facility rental model. Bottom line, now a days.. . a racer is purchasing a regatta service from some business incorporated locally as a yacht club in order that they get a low cost liquor license. Americans get modern consumerism where the customer is king. The club prices the event for what the market will bear. Sailors assume the risk of a a bad weekend is priced into the entry fee. IMO, the ONLY solution is to use the online registration and billing services to add a 20 buck or more late fee. Cruising and One design big boat owners seem to be OK with this solution BUT, IME small boat sailors bitch the most about late fees and are radical individualists with a ... "you are not the boss of me and my laser.... attitude. ... Why should I accept any risk for a bad weather weekend canceling the racing?" My answer... SFU unless YOU are reciprocating by actually running an event that I would attend....and since 99% of the racers don't do the late fee or stay home... Final observation... after 10 years or so.... you can see a one design fleet catch on to the idea that getting a few of their stud racers registered early in the process has a way of creating a buzz and getting a better then expected attendance... old habits die slowly!
  15. Tcatman

    US Sailing OD Survey

    Another way to look at this issue is The US system (properly functioning) determines the max performance of all boats in the table. The UK system measures the performance of the fleet sailing the boats in the table. Since I value Handicap racing for the racing fun and not to have a mechanism to determine the top dinghy sailor in the country, the UK system makes the most sense. Final thought, while it may be good enough for most clubs to use a UK pn number rescaled to the USPN table for new boats. is an apples an oranges matter to us number crunchers.. If memory serves.... the RYA reworked the UK portsmouth system 15 or more years ago to meet their sailors needs.. the US system has not been rethought since it was adopted from the Dixie PN system of the 50s and the engine runs on 8 bit computers using Fortran. Since the fundamental assumptions for a properly functioning US PN calculation don't hold up, it is probably not worth any effort to update the software or wait for valid data for new boat classes. In keeping with the max performance philosophy, US sailors could build a handicap system for small boats like PHRF. This would create a table of max performance for all boats using expert small dinghy and cat PHRF panels This system could remain current. Once upon a time at Key West Race week they conducted PHRF racing using their own PHRF handicappers to have a national level handicap championship so it would be a plausible alternative for US Sailors.. So, despite the bricks thrown at PHRF Racing... some people thought it valid enough to spend big bucks going to Key West.