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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About Tcatman

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  1. A race boat has as much value as the races that you want to compete in. The proper question is.... Does the class provide that value with the number and quality of events as a function of the time and money you have to spend AND can you physically handle the challenge. My observation is that the events are fewer and attract fewer competitors and essentially the same event as 10 years ago. YMMV as to the value relationship. Beyond the event schedule... you also have other issues ... for example... training time ((for instance... the time it takes to go foiling) and physicality limitations. (go around the front of the mast in 15 may be a no go for some)... The A class finally managed some of the issues by approving a non foiling championship trophy.. My point... You have to look at the entire picture and market the entire experience to maintain interest and sustain the class. The best example would be the Hobie 16 class.... the boat does not change... but they managed the value proposition brilliantly for years. The N17 class can ignore the normal value issues because being the Olympic class boat makes it essential for those elite sailors.... For the rest of the world.... maybe not so much.
  2. Eh... don't conflate customer service with design and execution for creating an Olympic Class boat. Nacra did a good job of managing the previous FUBAR of a substandard carbon stick requiring a new stick design and build. Getting credit for fixing a fail in the design of a major component. does not speak well of your ability to execute the design and build problem. You will NEVER get public criticism of Nacra or World Sailing from ANY of the N17 competitors. they are completely dependent on Nacra for equipment and service and have limited amounts of time to make or break an olympic dream.. They get absolutely nothing for complaining about the design, build quality, etc etc and perhaps future grief in voicing honest criticism. The original version of N17 was constantly photographed popping wheelies at stupid times and the spin was...." Oh this is OK... it is an appropriately challenging boat for the Olympics". Their lack of candor was noteworthy at the time. Bundy made a very mild criticism /comment about T foil rudders being needed to cure the stability issue and Nacra responded that Hey... they had that solution but it was not their fault.... see World Sailing. Only a Bundy could voice any credible critique of Nacra and this was as far as he would publicly go. Indeed... you prove my point that active olympic class sailors could not and WOULD NOT make public statements about N17 issues and risk the negative consequences. you write. QED.... you don't bite the hand of the builder who supplies you with the ticket for your dreams with PUBLIC criticism.. (Hope you don't get them in trouble with Nacra) World Sailing sold the MNA's on the idea that the Technical Committee had the expertise to evaluate the new design and to trust them to execute the introduction of a new olympic design.... Melvin had designed the perfect boat for a Mixed discipline and had nailed the sweet spot for crew weights. essential to growing the discipline to more MNA participation.. He had a very impressive technical brief... yada yada yada... End result... The mast FUBAR was an obvious fail. MORE, Build and Design issues would be a final strike at the technical committee.. It could not happen. So... there were NO design and build problems..... So...as with all such organizations...the members of the tech committee rotated out of responsibility and the disaster's mother melted away leaving only the bastard N17 to be fixed by another round of technical committee members. The N17 story is not a fairy tale of the little boy yelling Momma.... the emperor has no clothes.... Nope its one of complicity. So far... no happy end to the tale. IMO, everyone who pays attention to the Olympic niche of the sport wants a brilliant boat that allows for the best sailors to win the medals on as level a playing field as you can get.. The problem is getting the incentives properly aligned with the interest of the competitors (who have to pay the bills). Sadly, the current structure means that the competitors have to keep their mouth shut and proper leadership will never be realized among the competitors in this system.. World Sailing is equally complicit in the BS and most concerned with covering their ass again. Props to Macca for telling his version of how it is. (His points seem valid to me). For the rank and file supporters of the Olympic movement.... our job is to lean on our MNA's and get them to stand up get the discipline a worthy boat to race.
  3. A class You make an interesting point about Moth versus the N17 Cat.... complicated comparison since two man boats are just different then the single handers. The A class survives all but the Hobie 14 in the single handed cat space. The market will deliver boats to these sailors. Glad to see the A class finally got it right.
  4. Sam... You skipped over the fundamental problem with the N17. All of the events are MIXED. I can't see the class organizing an OPEN North American championship.... the rec team that gets a used N17 will need a set of events to play with it. I can't see how that works. A Class Sailor .. Re Tornado sailors.... a long slow death... true for all of us by the way AND they are not likely to get another boat. Nor are the Hobie 16, F16 or Nacra 20 guys either. RE lousy sailing performance by the Flying Phantom and the Nacra 20fcs. I will take your word for it... BUT these two classes have events and a reason for existing.... that is what makes them viable for the Open sailors who really really want to fly a boat in an organized racing circuit... You make a great point about the role that a manufacturer formula rule had in shaping the optimization of the boats in a basic direction. In principle, I agree but I can't overlook two core problems. A formula rule in an era where a single development can obsolete the entire fleet overnight is really a development class. And these classes have a finite popularity. Perhaps one of the new designs will be a true winner ... but I think the design space is too broad and so a formula rule is still premature. THere is not a lot of evidence either way on this... but if Nacra has orders for 150 N17s.... Do you think that DNA and Exploder will deliver 150 A class next year? I don't. Second point.... the power of agreement IE the world wide support for the F18 class rule has a so so record in the states. The adoption of the F18 formula was slow compared with the rest of the world. The surviving P19 and N5.8 sailors moved out of cats altogether... the Nacra 20 class survives in pockets. The end result was a national fleet of about 150 or so teams in several big boat classes declined to about 50 or 60 SS teams on F18s. There is a life cycle effect to consider.... where the core of existing fleets say "AH.... not up for another round of boats and certainly not a round of development class..... I'm good enough. I will sail recreationally and stop the weekend regatta circui"t. The key of course is new blood joining the discipline however counting on junior sailors on N15s to sustain the move into a foiling adult boat seems unlikely. I hope we do get some leadership .... minimizing the churn of sailors into fleets and out again after expectations not being met is not good for growth in our small niche of the sporting world.
  5. Hopefully the F18 class will go to school on the A Class experience. Rule 8 was written to explicitly prevent the A class from flying and it failed spectacularly!. Faced with the reality of flying boats.... the class forecast the predictable future of rapid adoption of the new technology and the A class would march onwards. The reality is that sailors see flying boats as different beasts and not the same beast that just improved when moving from wood to carbon (or any of the revolutions )in the A development class. (perhaps that is why they voted for rule 8 to STOP flying boats) Bottom line... they just voted 7 or 8 years after they should have to sanction a non flying classic world championship. Basically two different beasts on the water meeting the needs of two different populations of sailors. That is the take home point.... there are different populations of cat racers. The unique class structure of the N17 class of light crew weights 310 or so, and Mixed competition at the world/national level will limit its appeal to the larger weekend racer market interested in full flying boats. The sensible future would be to leave the F18 class alone and let the Tornado class serve the population of sailors who want a 20 footer and the F16 and Hobie 16 classes for the smaller boats. The Flying Phantom seems to meet the niche for flying 18 footers in Open competition while the Nacra FCS20 captures those that want a bigger boat in Open. Trying to forecast or create a formula rule for flying classes seems premature. Critical mass is essential and there is not enough interest among the rank and file to organize a Flying box rule set at any level ... much less recruit builders to work within the box (like Tornado's, F18s, F16s and A class). It is always a chicken or egg problem. What events do you want to compete versus what's the right boat for you right now.
  6. That is likely because few people can relate to a Tornado or 49er I think this is irrelevant. World Sailing understands that the Olympic TV viewer is watching for a reality show. They want to watch individuals from their country.... (or the media images shaped by the Olympic marketing machine) live or die on the ONE CHANCE for greatness. Win or be eliminated adds the drama. Sailing tries to twist the racing game into this reality show format with the fleet races leading to a cut and a high stakes medal round. The sailing reality tv show game is better but not revolutionary. The fundamental issue is how to capture the decisive moments of high drama... In sailing... you can't see the wind.... so you are forced to record the mistakes. Second point.... for a TV reality show.... you need to constantly reset the action. Each point in tennis is a new challenge.... each pitch in baseball is a chance for a game changing home run, each turnover in football resets the action.. The viewer knows the structure. Sailing does not enjoy a structure that continually resets the competition in such an easy to digest manner. As for the New N17.... World Sailing and Nacra control the rule set and the source of ALL of the gear. Nacra wants to make money while World Sailing wants to guarantee "fairness" They would LIKE the boat to work properly but its not the major objective of either organization. The first try was half assed... ( Mind you.... It took 4 years for the sailors to public state... this boat sucked!) . the second try may not prove to be much better. Having had a tiny tiny role in the initial US process.... the mention of Morelli and Melvin were the magic solution to all things technical and all members of the technical committee were convinced that they could partner and deliver a great sailing boat. History shows that much more is needed. Compare the current NACRA/World Sailing class structure to the last olympic cat class, the Tornado, now celebrating 50 years of competition this year. The class rules allowed the boat to evolve within its box and optimize its performance,with multiple builders, vendors, etc etc.. Nobody argues that the Tornado was not and is not a modern and highly refined machine BECAUSE of this process. However, from ISAF's point of view.... that space for evolution and technical improvement created an unfair playing field and so good riddance from the Olympics. As a sailor.... I would choose the structure that drives the evolution towards a great boat without roadblocks from World Sailing and the builder. Its about the Process! The sailors had so little confidence in the NACRA/World Sailing management that almost half the class would have been happy with t foil rudders. Bottom line... we are where we are in 2017 because of the fundamental choice in what we wanted and how we implemented Olympic equipment selection. Nothing can change until we address the underlying philosophy.
  7. eh.... start off discussion on Steve Clarke's point up the thread about A class rule 8... aka ... The original sin! Time will tell if the Z's are the solution for weekend sailors. the N17s want the difficulty factor..if they are "challenging" that is a feature... not a bug after all it's Olympic and this is one point of view about Olympic boats. Till then... a class for true believers on the edge..
  8. Basic A-Class Questions

    What you want is an F16.... sail it uni in breeze... sail it uni with a chute in conditions you like.... add the jib when you get a friend. Bit heavier then an A class but more robust on a beach. Sounds like one design racing or development is not at the top of you must have lists....
  9. Are Anarchists intellectually lazy ??????

    It was a Great read! The feedback on the article probably represents the proportion of builders/designers playing in the A cat field versus the sailors who have the toy and choose to go racing.
  10. Laser 4.7 vs Laser Radial Portsmouth Rating???

    So can you point to any US regatta where times were collected with at least a couple of boats in the three classes were raced AND verify that the boats were race ready (good sails and foils) by accomplished helms? I doubt you can.... So what to do.... The only thing that matters is the fun factor for the sailors on race day.... One day ... someday... to determine the best sailing performance won't cut it... The PN committee should NOT make matters worse and run the calculation with the garbage already in the system. Far better to take the UK table and recenter around the US standard of the thistle. Call the system US dinghy PHRF Time on time handicap. ITS a club decision.... the OA can publish their handicap table, explain how they get the ratings and make it so in their NOR .... and nobody can challenge them. This is not a laser class issue....It is not a US Sailing issue either. (they can't fix the problem of no valid data) Its an individual sailor concern... would I have fun competing in this handicap race... Yeah or Nay.
  11. High wind sailing is about depowering your rig. flattening your sail and twisting off the top so that you can blow off power. The few times, I set up a getaway for rec sailors.... I did not think it would depower effectively. Usually, the owners regulate themselves by not sailing in much breeze. You should check this out before purchasing. I am not an expert or sailor of this design. .... The other key feature is how much weight you need to right the boat.... assuming you dump it and don't allow the boat to blow away from you. Final point... make sure you can climb onto the boat from the water..... You might look into a Dart 18 (if you can find one on the west coast) It will sail well single handed in breeze with just the pin head main.... and it has less sail area then most 16 footers. Like the Getaway... its a skeg design. Also check out a new build.. the small Nacra rec boat... 4.50 I think.
  12. What's happened to the C&C 30?

    hmm... might start at the bottom and figure out a way to get more woman helms. Plenty of woman are competitive in golf and tennis as life time sports, so the issue is not competition per se... Sking is probably more recreational then competitive... and they have lots of woman on the slopes. Being the helm gives you a sense of control and gets you to invest in the sport and then into building a team and so on and so on. IMO, a major hurdle is the need to be mechanically handy to keep the boat race ready as an individual owner. I bet a club setting that maintained a club fleet would be the optimal way to get woman taking on driving their own boats.
  13. 2016 Olympic Games

    I agree the framework is coming along .... the devil is in the details. Lets support Malcom Paige... He has made a huge change in the coaching area replacing an untouchable with himself last week... Re College sailing.... I agree... I don't expect college sailing to change equipment or focus of the game.... My idea is to add to it... by allowing funded juniors to bank scholarships and cash while sailing in Olympic and Olympic development classes (that is the kids folks!).... There would be changes for College sailing... but not to college sailing. We are talking at most 100 sailors... probably less with many team members out of college So far, the argument against my idea is.... The momentum of HATE keeping cash out of collegiate activities because of the precedent it would set for BBall football and other money makers or some antiquated sense of amateurism.. .... Well.... so be it... its a fight.. (sticking it to the NCAA is a feature... not a bug) Sailing has been trying to resolve the paid versus non paid sailor issue for ever.... Why should this area be any different.
  14. 2016 Olympic Games

    ah. sorry..... I was responding to a couple of posts. I get it ... My point was.... the system you went through is tough. You spent a lot of time an energy.... and you returned to the sport. I would characterize your history as ... "you took a break from sailing and return to competitive sailing at some level." THIS is a great outcome and speaks to a proper system at work. Many people opine that the olympic pathway burns up sailors.... Burnout is almost a certain outcome and the olympic system (of most countries) itself is at fault AND the fundamental problem/issue with many rank and file sailors is that the whole process is bad for recreational competitive racing. Somehow... we would be better off as a sport without Olympic classes as the pinnacle of the sport. The USA is trying to build pathways as well... Our collegiate sailing system is a major factor. Culture is a bit different etc... Time to go to school on the UK pathway... AND appreciate the fundamentals that makes it work.... the point that you make is that non squad members can participate is a key point. The culture has been... that sailors may toy with olympic classes... but really don't commit until they graduate from college.... The bar is now so high that this strategy won't win medals. And that is not the objective here. There is a hell of an important baby here... and we must be careful not to throw her out with the bath water. Point two... it matters to rank and file racing in non obvious ways.
  15. 2016 Olympic Games

    Wow, Thanks for sharing your story. Your journey is exactly what you want the organization of the sport to accomplish. When you wanted to.... there were opportunities to compete in sailing that you found value in. Outstanding. I think your experience answers the big question... why do we need Olympic sailing at all? I believe that fundamental to any sport is competing and winning at the very pinnacle of the game. Sailing, being an Olympic sport raises the pinnacle to be truly global. The thread pulling all of us forward as competitive sailors may seem invisible but it is essential in inspiring each competitor to take the next step and providing value to us in our efforts as we go.. In a sense, this thread is more metaphysical then actually mechanical but it is essential. GBR followed that pull for as long as it was practical as part of his country's system.. Gary Jobson framed the question as... If you are at all inspired by an Olympic level competitor, consider the impact on a kid and for that reason alone you should support the system of organized sailing. (US sailing in the states) I believe that building an olympic pathway that is fair and inclusive and successful has value to every competitive aspect in our game. Building a structure to support recreational competitive sailing is equally important. Being crystal clear on what the expectations and promises are in each game are is essential to avoid the upset.... (eg the HA!... olympic sailing is a waste of time money, its rigged, etc etc etc .... who cares...) The Olympic pathway will not fill up the ranks of recreational sailors post campaigning. . Its contribution to recreational racing is more metaphysical then mechanical. Nor will a pyramid of recreational sailors competing reliably deliver an ultimate performance at the pinnacle of the sport. GBR's experience is a great outcome. An outcome the system would love to see as many competitors take. Everyone is human and it's tough.... The fact that many olympic competitors have strong feelings or don't rejoin competitive sailing is not evidence of a problem or the wrong system. So, us rank and file sailors need to support olympic athletes and olympic sailing by making sure the Equipment they have to use is of good value and rewards superior sailing. The equipment playing field is scrupulously fair and minimizes the gamesmanship that will arise. We need to make sure that the development and selection systems are transparent and fair. We have a stewardship role here. We are supporting the essential value of that metaphysical thread that pulls towards excellence and is in some part present... even in the wed night beer can race! We might not see many sailors rejoin or join the ranks of recreational sailors... but that is not what we should expect. Stories like GBR's are evidence supporting how the system should work For the USA... we need to recognize how demanding international sailing success is and remove the barriers and hurdles for those young sailors who want to compete (the College sailing issue) and as Malcom Paige noted.... If we can't generate fans out of the legion of sailboat racers in the country... we won't be able to get support from the average john q public member. So.... fandom is important. Thanks GBR... Your experience is inspiring!