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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About yarboat

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  • Location
    San Francisco Bay
  • Interests
    sailing - rigging - deliveries - bay and ocean racing/cruising - navigation - astronomy
  1. News from SF Embarcadero...

    Good summary ... and partly this was because I didn't have to listen to GJ reading his own words. I do hope I will never have to do so again .... please??
  2. Artemis?

    Monster Mash
  3. Artemis?

    1. Fast is fun, but so are lots of other things. I always enjoyed the old boats, and I will enjoy any new boats - because actually its not the fast that attracts me to this game but everything around it. I am quite happy for them to continue in cats, but only with decent numbers, match racing and leading edge design and technology. I don't see where the need for people to be at risk as a central aspect of the sport comes into this. 2. Insinuating... You are just blathering so I'm not going to bother to respond So the AC, VOR, Hydroptere, all other forms of off-shore sailing, NASCAR, F1, boxing, wrestling, Alpine Skiing, etc... should all be stopped based on your conception of moral hazard? And comparing an AC72 to Russian roulette is a piss poor analogy. WetHog You will find that in all those sports (apart from boxing probably) the occurrence of deaths was not treated lightly and romanticised as a necessary aspect of people taking part, and major changes occurred to ensure that the cause of death was identified and removed. Here the cause of death is the boat itself (yeah blah blah structural failure etc - the boat itself is too complex, fragile and difficult to sail). Russian roulette was an illustration not an analogy. I used it to help you understand that you don't escape moral responsibility for someone else's actions simply because they accept the conditions you offer. I don't think that the AC is Russian roulette, but I would have to say that if AR go out again it wouldn't be dissimilar. AR's boat was dangerous based on numerous structural issues that led to a catostrophic failure, but the other 5 AC72s have been sound for the most part. So what is dangerous about the design besides speed? WetHog Let's see .... just off the top of my head Excepting the Artemis incident as you point out; Because the sheer height and mass of the wing on a 45 or 72 gives it inherent energy potential, gravity makes it more dangerous. Each capsize replay of an AC45 and the OR72 pitchpole I've watched on video looked plenty dangerous - especially to anyone in the vicinity. I'd hate to imagine any of these cats losing rudder control near a group of us spectators on shore. Perhaps the capsized crew members themselves are actually at a lesser risk of being hit by their own wing ... and mostly at risk of falling the 10 to 20 feet (or more?) onto their own capsized wing as has been mentioned many times. It's interesting to again note that each capsize so far seemed to execute rather slowly (almost in slow motion I would say) ... which could conceivably allow a bit of maneuvering room should two boats be close to one another at the time. However, they would have to be as lucky as Spithill was during the AC45 capsize shortly after an ACWS start which very nearly smashed the OR wing into another AC45 last fall. In any case, if I were sailing in the vicinity (say within 40 meters/ 130 feet) of a capsizing AC72 and be unlucky enough to be hit by a falling wing, well ... at best, it would be extremely dicey. Due to the slowness that the wings seem to fall (I admit here the relative slowness of the arc of a falling 130 foot wing is not a reassuring statistic ... even to think about!), perhaps it would not be quite as dangerous as many non-sailors (and many monohull sailors) would at first assume ... but could very well be deadly. In fact, deadly and at least injurious a good percentage of the time ... given the water element involved, confusion, disorientation and the spaghetti bowl of lines and rigging now mingling with crew, carbon bits, air bottles, PFDs, radios, etc. I myself picked up many broken pieces of the OR wing after they were washed ashore on Ocean Beach last October and there were many thin, razor sharp carbon and aluminum edges exposed. Also, a dismasting can ruin your whole day! I was going to say a "simple" dismasting. But a "diswinging" is anything but simple! I think a dismasted wing would probably be more dangerous than a typical broken mast. The sheer mass of even an AC45 wing would be devastating to anyone below it. I've been dismasted at night on a Hunter 54 off Big Sur and it was terrifying enough just to survive cutting the entire rig loose. With masthead floats and extra emergency floatation carried by the rescue teams, I think the danger of a "diswinged" 72 could be minimized inside the Bay. Very, very difficult to cut the wing loose in more than a very modest ocean swell though. I think that if the teams don't have a "quick" way of cutting the wing loose, it might be prudent to develop one. Many here I'm sure have experienced a 4 to 6 foot swell inside the Bay entrance at times. Occasionally the ocean swells can extend all the way through the race course to Alcatraz and beyond. It's now apparent that if there is any ebb at all and there is at least a 15 knot westerly during these times, I'd say it's going to make it very difficult to execute a rescue. In a monohull, there is (so far at least) somewhat less risk in the same situation. Suppose the ACRM is forced to call a race because of a 6 foot ocean swell coming well into the Bay? How do you think an AC72 would handle a big swell? Is the inertia of the wing much of a factor? I guess thwy could move the windward gate pretty far east ... but how far? The foils have been mentioned as an additional hazard. It occurs to me as you have asked "why more dangerous?" ... the curved foils pose something of a threat to someone falling overboard. Even at only 10 knots of boat speed, there is tremendous force there. Thus, I would suggest (more of a guess really) that there is a distinct danger presented by the existing foils at almost any speed over 2 or 3 knots. So yes, that is one area unrelated to "high" speed sailing that is risky on a current AC72. Those foils do look awfully sharp BTW! For that matter, having a foil hit any somewhat heavy ... mostly submerged object will be ... quite a learning experience for sure. What will happen at 40 knots? ... 20 knots? ... 10 knots? And yes, for the record I acknowledge sailing is a somewhat risky sport. As for me, that is one reason I can say I enjoy "risking it" ... in the same way that I enjoy hiking to Angels Landing at Zion National Park, etc. But I'm not going to turn down a ride on a 72 or a 45, if it is ever offered. There are always many factors and ways to entertain risk in all of life ... and none of us make it out alive. But I don't creep out about it. These craft are miraculous machines to behold! As things develop, in a few more years, we will have been damn fortunate to have watched this all unfold. Maybe Artemis have given us a door to crack open in a way? ... and each in our own way.