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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.


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  1. What a silly thing to say on an online forum! Each of us reading this knows that they, and only they, know what is the perfect boat for Dave. Everyone else, including Dave, is just plain wrong.
  2. Given I work as a civil and structural engineer in teh UK, I can confidently state that nothin in teh above response is correct. There is no UK 'building control' which holds structural drawings for all buildings. If you're lucky the owner of the building may have some drawings, but probably not. Some councils have a central depository of drawings of buildings they own, but again its hit and miss what they have and whats been lost. If someone does have drawings, they are invariably the property of the owner of that building, to do with as they please. As standard in UK (and every other part of the world I've worked in) for building and structural design contracts the finished design becomes wholly the property of the client. They archive old submissions of structural calculations for building controls (https://www.istructe.org/getattachment/cfd44f46-987b-4013-9f30-750e4a19fd47/Building-Control.pdf - guidance from Istructr-E on this). Some of these include detailed drawings, especially older ones, I once found some gems really neatly drawn by hand. If you ask nicely, they will let you access the drawings, I've never managed to make a copy though. In most places where I have worked, there was a disclaimer at the bottom of the drawings saying no copying without permission otherwise copyright infringement. At least this is how it was working in the late noughties when I was there. You were very lucky in the local authorities you dealt with. Very few (and none I've yet worked with) archive anything beyond the statutory minimum time. And what they do have rarely includes full structural drawings - as you'll see from the IStructE guidance this level of detail doesn't need to be provided for building regs approval - depending on the complexity of the building, you can get away with a few pages of calculations and some hand sketches. You just need to provide sufficient information to prove sufficiency of design. But the lack of copying is nothing to do with authority from the designer, as the IP doesn't belong to them. You need the permission of the owner of the building at that time. If you have that, they'll happily provide you with copies (at a cost, of course)
  3. Given I work as a civil and structural engineer in teh UK, I can confidently state that nothin in teh above response is correct. There is no UK 'building control' which holds structural drawings for all buildings. If you're lucky the owner of the building may have some drawings, but probably not. Some councils have a central depository of drawings of buildings they own, but again its hit and miss what they have and whats been lost. If someone does have drawings, they are invariably the property of the owner of that building, to do with as they please. As standard in UK (and every other part of the world I've worked in) for building and structural design contracts the finished design becomes wholly the property of the client.
  4. What a bunch of negative comments, on a forum claiming 'anarchy' and where you all moan about average white blobs and all boats looking the same . . . Trunk cutting through the accommodation - its a 56 foot yacht with relatively high freeboard, so I'll image it will be below the sole. Rattling in its trunk at anchor? Modern roller systems are pretty good at stopping that. And when not in use it fully retracts into the case - so its not being pushed around by the watter, so what's causing it to move around and rattle? Uncomfortable motion? Well any lightweight, fast boat isn't exactly comfortable. But the DSS allows a narrower waterline as you're less reliant on form stability, which should help, plus the fin may act as a good damper. Certainly the reviews of DSS in Yachting World etc. all seem to comment on the DSS improving comfort. Anyway, I thought the consensus here is that most people are wimps who just sail from marina to marina in nice weather, so who cares about comfort in rough seas? No, I've nothing to do with the company, never sailed a DSS equipped boat and it may well be a rubbish boat. But based on what experienced sailors who've sailed DSS equiped boats have to say maybe this is something to keep an eye on, maybe even raise a modicum of excitement?
  5. Bob, Sorry, I've been separated from my computer for a while and only just checking back in. Did you get a chance to scan the accommodation drawing for Loon? I got the 'Bluewaters Cruisers' book in my Christmas stocking after you mentioned it here. Some very nice designs of yours I'd not seen before. You're just going to have to do another book, to include all those drawings you didn't fit into the first!
  6. While there is thread drift about Loon, do you have an accommodation plan handy? I've admired photos of Loon for years, as well as the drawings you've posted here, but don't think I've ever seen anything hinting at how the interior is arranged. Until seeing this construction plan I'd not realised the engine was so far forwards so now even more intrigued regarding the interior.
  7. Its commonly stated that the tumblehome was to help deflect shells up. This isn't the reason, or at least no the primary reason. The limitations of the guns at the time (and the targeting apparatus) meant that the shells likely to hit the hull would be fired at fairly short range and so would have a fairly flat trajectory. If you had, say, 2 inches of armour and vertical topsides, the shell had to penetrate 2 inches of armour. But if that armour was raked at 45 degrees, the shell had to travel further to penetrate the armour as its travelling at an angle through the armour- just over 2.8 inches. So raking the armour has the effect of increasing the thickness of the armour (from the point of view of the shell) without any weight penalty (a weight saving potentially, as for a given waterline beam you ended up with less deck, which is itself more weight). Its the same reason as armoured vehicles tend to have raked sides. The rake may help deflect the shell up, but that's not the primary reason for the rake.
  8. Probably slows it down - apparently the class rules for the Salcombe Yawl now state that the mizzen must be flown when racing, after some owners realised they did better if they didn't bother hoisting the sail.
  9. Assuming you're corssing the bar under motor, a single rudder is actually better than a twin rudder. Coming in, the waves will be overtaking you. As the wave crest comes under the stern, the water in the crest will be travelling forwards faster than the boat is (particularly if its beginning to break), so you loose water flow over the rudder and so loose steerage. If you have a single rudder and an inboard motor, the rudder is positioned in the flow of water from the prop, allowing you to maintain a modicum of steerage as the wave crest passes under the stern. You don't get that with twin rudders. Nearest we have to your bar in this part of the world is Chichester bar, which can get hairy in a southerly. Done it with young kids - as long as they're clipped on, and you're not trying to do it in stupid conditions, they think its great fun - better than a theme park!
  10. Maybe the lack of TV coverage has more do do with how well (or badly) your sailors are doing, rather than the class they're racing? Here in the UK there is always plenty of coverage of the Olympic sailing - is this because we normally win a handful of medals in the sailing?
  11. They run happily of Meths, so easy enough to get in Europe (and I imagine the rest of the world). I have one and wouldn't revert to anything else now. Fuel is maybe slightly more expensive (I've not bothered to work it out - running costs are negligible compared to other boat costs), and its slightly slower to bring stuff to the boil (but if you're in such a rush, why have a sailing boat), but its easy to use, low (almost no) maintenance and no risk of gas leaks - just store spare fuel where it can drain overboard - I converted the boat's gas locker to drained storage for meths and petrol for the outboard.
  12. The prototype sailed in the Solent for a while. There were a few good photos of her (some reposted on this forum I think) of her sailing in fairly choppy conditions.
  13. Reading some of Uffa's books, on many of these long thin boats (meter boats and the various smaller one designs) as well as the Js, it was common for any spare crew to go down below and lie on the windward bunks - given the hull shape, this actually got their weight further outboards when well healed over than they would be on the windward deck, and also removed the windage they caused. This is the same reason you also see pictures of them lying down on the windward deck - gets them almost as far to windward as sitting on the rail, but reduces the windage - on these low, narrow and heavily ballasted boat reducing the windage was considered more beneficial than getting the crew weight every last inch to windward.
  14. If you're an engineer but not a designer, you're in the wrong branch of engineering. I'm an engineer and I'm leading the design process day in, day out. Great fun.
  15. Come on you guys, lets be real here. Do you really believe that there wasn't an engineering study here? Of course there was. Loads from the keel can be carried in part by the skin, but equally it's possible to design the structure so most of the load is taken by the structural frame, with the skin doing little other than keeping the water out. Not saying the design isn't wrong. Something almost certainly went wrong with either design or construction. But after a lifetime as a marine engineer the one thing I've learned is that try as you might, occasionally mistakes happen. Most of us are lucky and our mistakes happen in a non spectacular way (and yes, that is just luck). If you're unlucky, things happen in a spectacular way, and worst case is someone dies. But any good designer who's honest with himself knows its an element of luck (plus the conservative nature of design codes) that has prevented this kind of thing happening to them, as much as technical ability. Oysters response seems spot on. Why speculate until you know all the facts? As for not expressing sympathy with the crew and owner, that will be the lawyers. Sadly in this day and age, expressing sympathy can be taken as an admission of guilt in court (if someone steps in front of your car and you hit them, don't ask if they're ok - s far as the law is concerned if you do you've as good as admitted guilt)