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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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About Otterbox

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    Dinghy sailing
  1. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Well at least they are talking, if the report is correct Anyone from ILCA at that meeting?
  2. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    I think the amount to work done by the builders has been largely unrecognized. I heard that the Australian builder PSA was the main sponsor of the Laser Masters Worlds and the Youth Worlds in Brisbane last year for instance. Yet now they cant build boats because of the ISAF and ILCA plaque decisions. Kirby looks to have his ducks in line, while ISAF and ILCA do seem to be struggling, its obvious they need to be meeting with Kirby ASAP
  3. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Generally insurance companies are able to walk away from any situation where people are doing anything they have been warned is illegal. It does seem like a significant personal risk.
  4. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Be interesting to be a fly on the wall at the next ILCA meeting. There are some rumours, I´ve heard from the UK scene, that not all the Council believes they have been well served by Jeff Martin One wonders what will happen if the ILCA gets a damages bill they cannot pay? Will the ILCA go into liquidation? What happens? Has anyone read the fine print? Will individual councillors who persist with what seems like some serious risk taking be liable?
  5. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Have you guys seen the latest on www.kirbytorch.com A serious blowtorch methinks!!
  6. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Regardless of their cries of, everything everything we´ve done is to ensure ongoing supply of boats, ISAf AND llCA have it seems stopped Laser production cold. Is there any disagreement that its time ISAF and ILCA sat down with Bruce Kirby and his Incs, whoever they maybe to try and get this whole thing back on track?
  7. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    No conspiracy, just a strong desire to protect the job or the position as you say. Puzzled by Tracy Usher tho.. , had a few beers with him once over here, at a Masters event, he seems intelligent and has a Phd to prove it but he seems to have been suckered by the promised of rivers of gold from Farzad Rastegar, for ILCA, when the most cursory glance at the size of the industry shows you it is just not there.
  8. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Gantt/Bruce Thanks for you posting. You´ve reminded me of what I wrote last year and yes its very much the case.. I just don't see evidence of logical thinking in the ILCA. Or alternatively someone who has been a long time in the organisation has been misleading the World Council and continues to do so. Be interesting to see what happens within that group. When you look at the obvious error made by the ILCA lawyer with the expired patents on the toy boat etc. it suggests ILCA and ISAF are keener to use an opinion from their lawyers that suits their purpose, rather than one that will stand the test of time and likely the Court system. Additionally it seems the ILCA and ISAF thought Kirby´s lawyer Whitmyer was just another hired gun, not realising he is a long time sailor, a former Optimist NA Class President as well as running a serious Intellectual Property Rights legal firm. Seems like its time that ISAF should sit down with Bruce and Whitmyer and actually see what they might be facing in Court and talk about alternatives, rather than just take a giant legal risk.
  9. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Gantt/Bruce Just found your second analysis dating back to the Fundamental Rule on the SailingForum. Can you please post it here too?
  10. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Absolutely agree. If you go back to what BK was saying about the IPR rights, when he was called ILCA fundamental rule briefing notes bullshit, he has been proven right all the way along. How ISAF can possibly explain themselves from this position "On March 25th Legal Counsel for ISAF Jon Napier wrote to Jeff Martin the Executive Secretary of ILCA requesting that ILCA cease to issue ISAF plaques to LaserPerformance (Europe) Limited and Quarter Moon Inc. (the 'Builders') with immediate effect. The reason for this decision is that ISAF has concluded, based on the correspondence and court papers received from Bruce Kirby’s attorneys, that the Builders are no longer licensed by Bruce Kirby and/or Bruce Kirby Inc. to build the Laser class boat (as required by the 1983 ISAF Agreement and the 1992 Plaque Agreement)." To move from that plainly factual conclusion to their very shaky, oh the 1983 agreement was invalidated because of the appointment of Torch builder’s decision, when there is NOT A WORD in that agreement (that anyone can find) which would prevent Kirby from building the boat under another name seems like a step onto the wild side. It looks very much like ISAF is going to realise soon having reached the first conclusion, which was plainly the right one, their sudden reversal is just not going to have legs in court and with big doubts over the Laser Trademarks now, they have plainly backed the wrong horse. At Event level and Race Management level, there is constant talk about Risk Management. Surely Napier, who is now the newly appointed ISAF Competition Manager and ISAF Boss Jerome Pels need to look hard at the risks arising from the ongoing support of LPE, when they are already on record having agreed that Kirby´s position on LPE was right. Neither LPE, ILCA or ISAF have been able to mount any public defence of their positions with any credibility at all. (as Gouvernail details) Right now it looks like ISAF´s bank accounts are on a hiding to nothing and that does not seem like sensible Risk Management. Any PRO of a major regatta who exposed the event to such risks would be rapidly cast loose and surely the ISAF Competition Manager, (and the ISAF in house legal counsel ) knows that.
  11. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Yes, its interesting, we are a long way away from the US sailing scene here in the UK but has anyone there ever heard of Karaya (Jersy) or Velum active with the Laser brands before this court case. If what Kirby´s attorney alleges is true, (and Pam´s research in the Improper Course blog was already pointing in that direction) , then it would seem pretty open and shut that LPE wont be selling Lasers any more in the USA and where does that leave ISAF and the ILCA? Or will we next hear they are going to be Issuing non Kirby Laser plaques to Laser non trademark owners too. After all only a few small class rules changes again!! Lets face it, both of those groups have the same perfect legal defence, they are happy to break the law if it means that boat supply continues.. That is OK is it not? Surely Jon Napier, the ISAF in-house legal counsel will be able to confirm that ISAF is way way above the law. BTW Does anyone know if the same trademark usage and protection applies in Europe and the UK??
  12. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Look at what just popped up http://www.marinebusiness-world.com/Kirby-files-to-cancel-Laser-Trademark-and-Sunburst-Logo-for-Boats/109354 Another new development in the widening legal dispute between Bruce Kirby, the designer of the world´s best known sailing boat, the Laser dinghy and one of the Laser builders LaserPerformance (LPE) the builder and supplier of Lasers into UK, Europe and North America, because of non-payment of design royalties. Bruce Kirby Inc. today filed a petition to cancel US trademark registrations directed to both the word LASER and the Sunburst logo for boats. According to US Trademark Office records, these US registrations are owned by Karaya (Jersey) Limited based in St. Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands. Grounds for the petitions are abandonment and failure to exercise control over the goods made and sold under the marks.
  13. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    Resins vary country to country, even if they are supposed to be identical, so single factory production will ensure uniformity. When I was a kid, I had a fishing reel Made in USA. It was not made in America but in a town in Japan that changed its name to USA, part of their plan to overcome the stigma of Japanese made product. The law was changed to prevent that but we know Japanese production continued to improve. I am sure that Chinese production strictly to the LCM would give us good boats and bitching about 2% and ignoring 20% potential saving seems pretty daft to me.
  14. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    If one factory, with certified materials built to the Kirby LCM I dont believe there would be a quality issue. Over the last four decades a lot has changed in manufacturing. McConaghy built boats out of China are considered to be of very very good quality for instance. Dont imagine for a minute that there are not currently problems with resin grade differences. Do you think PSJ building say 100 boats a year has the same resin as Banbury building 1000?
  15. Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

    From what has been established Kirby was getting 2% on the boat and zero on the sails, so Wess continuing the line about huge mark ups is just deliberate misinformation. Actually I think one of the major issues facing the Laser class is the building of boats in the wrong places. In 1970 building boats in Japan, the UK, North America and Australia was fine but these days they should be being built in China, in one well run factory. I bet if that happened we`d see the same full event and class support around the world AND a 20% reduction in cost and a uniformity of quality, rather than having boats built in Australia obviously superior to those built here in UK. Before every starts going off about British built or Australian being better than Chinese built, if the production processes are set up exactly the same and close supervision say from the PSA guys,, there will be greater uniformity in resins and more labour put into each boat if they are built in China and we´d all see cheaper boats and at this point I don´t care if they are called Lasers or Torches.