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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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  1. Hurricane Harvey - watch out, Texas

    Friend of mine was talking with his cousin north of Corpus. Had 2800 head of cattle. Only has two left. I think this is just the tip of that sad story. Human suffering is tremendous, but there is also going to be a lot more to it with lose of livestock.
  2. Craigslist Finds

    Blasting around on a very breezy day might prove fun. Put foils on it and that might really bring some interest. My son was just enthralled by the boat years ago and all he wanted to do was give it a try. He was young(11) and had been sailing Optis and wanted to try other boats. He had his chance one day in medium breeze (10-15) and his little sister was in her Opti and she had no problem keeping up with him all day long. He was very disappointed and never got on the Bic again. Just had no interest in sailing the boat. Again just one kids perspective. I think there is a place for the class and it should be encouraged for kids looking for that sailing format. That is the great aspect of our sport that it has something for everyone.
  3. Very well stated and applies to much more than just a melges 24. Buyer beware! The marine industry is unique. People have no hesitation paying professional for their services in other aspects of their lives. Will be in Corpus Christi in June. Looking forward to a trip to Texas! Hope there will be some breeze!
  4. Laser 4.7 in North America

    Utilizing the non-class legal laser equipment is a start to get kids on the water within a budget. The equipment is similar to the class stuff, but as mentioned above you could be disallowed from attending Laser class sanctioned events. And understandably rightly so. if your goal is to get the kids on the water sailing then it is absolutely the right path as the cost is significantly reduced. When my kids did a run in the lasers we regularly used a lot of non class equipment, especially sails to fun sail and practice with. We did have full class legal equipment that we would use for the sanctioned events and basically lived in the garage except for the couple events a year we did. the US Sailing Jr Olympic festivals in Florida do not enforce the class regulations for class approved parts and are happy the kids participate to build the fleet numbers. It should be noted though that most of the top kids attending these events are using all class equipment as they are usually sailing on a national level as well as the local Florida winter events. Also the class equipment is probably faster than the bargain stuff, but there is probably an argument to be made there by some reading this!
  5. Laser 4.7 in North America

    Sorry if i missed something. I had no idea the laser 4.7 was in competition against the Opti for sailors. In Florida it is very common for kids aging out or sizing out of the Opti to give the 4.7 a go. Especially at the Junior Olympic Regattas. It does not seem to be in competition with the Opti. While not a perfect platform it is an opportunity for kids to move into a one design singlehanded platform after the Opti when the Laser Radial may be still out of reach. The Open Bic does a similar thing, but for a different mind set of sailor.
  6. Regatta venues

    I am sure YSFIRC is a tremendous asset to the community and youth sailing in the area. I wish them all the success in the world on holding a great event. But advertising the event being held at a waste treatment plant just caught me in a big laugh after a long day. I am sure the locals all know the sailing location, but look at it from a non local point of view, the headline provides a bit of humor.
  7. Regatta venues

    NOTICE OF RACE First Annual Fall 420 Regatta 17 17th Street, Vero Beach, FL 32960 (located at the wastewater treatment plant) November 19, 2016 Was just looking through regatta network at various upcoming events nation wide to see what was going on and who was sailing. This little gem just made me laugh so hard. A truly well meaning fall 420 regatta being held at the local waste water treatment plant. Just what parents want to see at the top of the NOR. One must assume the event is being held adjacent to the plant and sailed on the Indian River as stated, but my goodness what a headline to get your attention. Sure made me laugh after a tough day at the office.
  8. I420 vs.Club 420

    Contact one of the three builders. They are working with programs all the time to upgrade fleets. As programs purchase new fleets the builders help them sell the older boats to other programs getting started. The two primary builders are Zim Sailing and Sturgis boats. Laser Performance is the other builder. Google them for contact info. Agree Sail 1design is a good clearinghouse for the class as well. They have both individual and fleets for sale.
  9. I420 vs.Club 420

    "Not which one is better, just how people objectively see the demographics going in these classes" Completely agree with what has been stated above! The Club420 is not going anywhere anytime soon. It is a very well established North American youth boat that is fully endorsed by US Sailing. It is also a well supported scholastic platform albeit in the scholastic configuration with out spin and trap. The class numbers are there and the 2016 Orange bowl sold out in about three hours for the 100 boat limit of entries at that event. The I420 open Orange bowl is still open for entries and should expect more than thirty entries. The club 420 is also primarily a program owned boat with basically 80% of boats owned by sailing clubs and organizations. With only around 20% of the class privately owned, this keeps the class available to a large number of sailors. My kids are part of that 20% and we own our own boat as the local club boats are just not maintained to a race condition. But the vast number of program boats open many doors for sailors nationwide. The i420 is such a completely different class. The boats share some cominality in size and shape, but as a class it is a completely different internationally sailed boat. In the US the I420 boats are all primarily privately owned except the few owned by places like Oakcliff, ODP and a few others with an extra boat to lend out or chartered. While this class is being pushed by the OPD and US Sailing as a development class it offers a higher level of sailing for sailors looking to move on to international competition. We also have an I420 and the kids really like sailing this boat a lot as it offers a lot more performance than the Club420. But the number of US competitors will never reach the numbers you get at a national Club420 event. Many of the top I420 sailors are also the top Club420 sailors as well and bounce back and forth for the various events. Much has been said about the Club420 sailboat as a sailing platform and being outdated and that is not part of this discussion. The Club 420 has a tremendous support in this country and the i420 is the largest double handed youth boat in the world to my knowledge. Please correct me if I have bad info! Being a boat owner of a C420 you have a great opportunity for some very competitive youth sailing for years to come here in the US. Enjoy it with your family. It has been a huge part of my family as it has brought us together in something we all enjoy!
  10. Opti or Bic for an 8 year old

    I am starting to think a few of you long time contributor to the discussion are a bit out of touch with the Opti calss. There also seems to be a confusion between competitive youth racing and getting kids out sailing and having a great time- Like what goes on at summer camps all over the country. On a wide variety of boats. The most important thing is to get kids out sailing. And what would be even greater is if they did it with their family instead of just getting dropped off at the local yacht club or sailing center for sailing daycare with some high school aged counselor. Although those kids can be pretty high level sailors in their own right! While the Opti class mandates a kid completes his Opti career in the year they turn 15. I have never heard of kids being forced to sail Opti's by USODA until they were 15 years old. There are so many dynamics here that generalizing the situation is just marginalizing the whole conversation. There are tremendous options to get kids on the water at all ages that both include Opti's as well as a wide variety of other boats. I think Doug pushes the Topaz as a viable alternative as kids grow for the program he is involved with. Others have pushed the Open Bic. Point is to get kids out sailing. Regional fleets are the best resource and should be utilized. In the US if kids are looking to advance through the performance and racing side of sailing at a national level then we are discussing a different topic. There are a few options depending on regional fleets, but nationally for young kids it is the Opti. There are over 250 kids sailing at the Atlantic Coast champs this upcoming weekend for a regional event. That is a strong turn out. The 2016 Orange Bowl sold out in three hours with 300 registrants. Say what you want against the Opti. It all may be very valid points, but hard to beat the class participation and strong class association world wide. As kids outgrow the Opti class before they age out there is plenty of option. Laser 4.7 is a growing fleet. The club420 is a solid and a strong class. And there are plenty of other options. If they have really outgrown the Opti by size and not attitude then a double handed boat should be a reasonable fit. In many cases I have seen the kids just want to move out of the Opti because they are bored with the level of instruction. Again the C420 class filled the fleet at 2016 Orange Bowl of 100 boats in only three hours. Even if you do not like the antiquated C420 it s by far the most popular and important youth double handed boat in the North America with huge national level events well in excess of 100 boats. That is why it is an important part of the US Sailing Junior Championships. So if you want to compete as a youth at a national level in the US in the largest classes with the strongest class associations against the best kids in the country then you sail the Opti and then move into the Club420. Then the kids wanting more move into the youth development classes such as the I420, 29er, Laser radial and other ODP platforms. It is really unfortunate that more strong foreign classes have not developed here in the US as they have in other countries. We do not have a strong RS Feva fleet like Europe that bridges the gap from small single handed boats to the 29er or i420. We do have the C420 that fills this roll to a degree. For better or worse it is what we have. And many feel it is the pathway to higher scholastic sailing in college. So to get off my soap box just get kids out sailing on whatever they enjoy sailing on whatever may be available to them locally. If it happens to be a Topaz, fantastic, get the kids out and have fun and teach them something. Teach them to enjoy sailing and make it something they will enjoy the rest of their life. If a kid is looking to move forward to another level there are so many options out there on local and national classes. But instead of spending all this energy discussing what is the best platform, why not invite a kid to go sailing with you the next time out and get them excited about our sport. I do it every weekend possible and it is very rewarding!
  11. Opti or Bic for an 8 year old

    Back in 2011 US Sailing was parading a few Bic around the country to their JO events. My son was new to the Opti and saw one of the Bics and was just blown away by it and really wanted to get out and sail it. Unfortunately there was a long que to give it a try and he did not get a chance, but was very excited about the boat. Time went by and a year later he got his chance to sail one and it fell flat. It had nothing to do with any racing as it was not available. It was just a boat at the club available to go blast around on. He tried it four or five times and it just did not get up and go. In a 15 knot Breeze it just would not get up and roll. His sister on the Opti hung right with him. In fact the Opti for him in 15-20 knots was more fun. He never got back in the Bic after that. I know th marketing group with Bic has worked very hard to present the boat as a solid alternative to the Opti for kids who want something different. I truly applaude them for this as I think there s a huge opportunity to provide an alternative to the Opti. Hopefully a boat worthy of replacing the Opti will come along soon as I think it is a time overdue. Just nothing has entered the marketplace to knock the Opti off it's pedestal. Say what you want about the Opti, but it can be sailed by a large range of sailing abilities in a wide wind range. Part of its huge appeal to coaches and programs. While it might not be the best platform out there, I am not sure what beats it for an 8 year old kid. The class structure and support worldwide is huge. Even Steam Flyer who was not much of an Opti fan has come around and become a believer in the small boat as a good teaching platform. I am not sure if you are looking to get your daughter into racing in the future, but honestly that is a somewhat separate topic. The Opti Mafia is a separate topic!
  12. Club 420's for Grown ups?

    Shediacker, Absolutely agree the "masterClub420". Fleet is an awesome concept. With so many boats sitting on dollies in the north east it seems like a perfect fit. Boats are there and kiss needs someone. To launch the concept. You Might want to contact the class and see if they might consider supporting this concept and build a program around it. No reasonable those boats should be reserved for junior sailing
  13. Club 420's for Grown ups?

    Wow Foxxy - for such a mild mannered person I respect you have really taken this to be a c420 Vs I420 conversation. Could not be further from the fact. Your sailing center has a good number of C420 boats available and I am sure there is a well rounded group who get out and sail the boats outside the high school program. Hopefully there is a group of sailors looking to sail beyond the colliagiate level and actually try out the spinnaker and trapeze. In the US the C420 is by far the most important double handed youth boat on our country. Who cares if the world sailing supports it. It is what works for us here in the US and is a fantastic class for our youth as no other class has been able to do what the C420 class has been able to provide. You would be surprised at the level of support I have for this class. Looking back at the original topic it was about all people getting out to sail the C420. And I think this should be promoted as there are so many boats available around the country. Maybe you could work with your sailing center to help support getting more sailors out on the fleet of boats. The C420 is a very strong class and will continue to grow and build their ranks as they have a very strong class association, support from US Sailng and so many programs nationwide. At least 80% of boats are program owned and these programs do a fantastic job of supporting events in the country. I disagree with Foxxy on this being a C420"vs I420 situation and I was very surprised to see such a response non related to the topic. Must be something deep seeded in your thoughts, many of the kids sailing the I420 all came out f the C420 and this is a great building platform for kids moving to another level. But if you look at the kids sailing both classes you will see it basically consists of the top sailors in both classes. This whole issue of the I420 vs the C420 for growing the classes could not be further from the reality. It is only shortsightedness to think the two classes are in competition for participants at events. They would do a whole lot better to support each other for the benefit of both classes. This is what is happening among the sailors anyway regardless of the adults standing in the way. If you had done a little research you would know that more than two thirds of the I420 skippers at youth champs all own their own I420. Some of the local kids who filled the fleet used a few of the local boats, but the charter boats were used by kids unable to transport their own boat to the event. Wasn't this the case for a kid sailing from your sailing center? Also in response to your challenge of the fleet it is showing signs of growing based on the participation. 2014 ACC Champs 18 boats Nationals 26 boats NA's 14 boats 2015 ACC champs 29 boats Nationals 36 boats NA 's 22 boats 2016 NA's 36 boats ACC champs. - Oct Nationals - December US Sailing Youth Champs 32 boats If you took away all the program boats from the C420 class you would have about the same size fleets. As there are basically no I420 program boats the fleet is completely owner supported. Very few people step in to charter boats for events unless they are unable to bring their own boats and the charter suppliers want you to bring your own sails. I420" charters with sails are very expensive so very few do it. Most charters all bring their own sails as they are boat owners. Your youth ISAF champ event that you hosted a couple years ago was a nations qualifying event for an international youth event. Hence while there was only a few US entries at the event as they had already qualified and selected a delegate. I never undersood why that event was held in Florida. It was not an open regatta to the area sailors that is why no one sailed at the event. Do not confuse the issue of how to promote getting people out to sail the Club420 on a recreational level. In terms of the sour grapes with US Sailing and World Sailing and their support of the I420 vs the C420 you should take this up with them. I do not have a dog in that fight and just work with the situation presented and navigate the waters to best support kids. With all your strong postive attributes and hard work supporting youth sailing as a PRO and Judge, I would think you would be a bit more open minded to promoting youth sailing at all levels regardless of the class as it benefits all youth in our sport! Now go and promote getting all people out sailing the Club 420 and use all those boats sitting on dollies at the sailing programs around the country!
  14. Club 420's for Grown ups?

    The topic was relating to "adults" sailing the Club420. As Foxxy stated the class by-laws say that you age out the year of your 22nd birthday. At least to race in sanctioned class events. That being said many adults utilize program boats around the country for fun racing such as Wednesday nights and other fun events in both the club and collegiate confirgurations. While many people can have their opinions of boats, there sure are a lot of them out there so why not go sail them and have some fun. I am in agreement regarding the state of the US 470 fleet. How many boats are attending the national champs next weekend. Probably less than ten and they are mostly boats out of Oakcliff with teams just starting out. Question is will this class survive till the next Olympics? Outside the US it is a very strong class so there is a chance. I disagree with Foxxy in terms of the I420. This class is making a comeback at US events by steadily increasing the participation. Looking at the year to year numbers at national and world qualifying events the class is posting solid numbers. Although it will never reach the size of the Club420 fleets in the US due to the vast number of C420 boats in the sailing programs nation wide and available to the kids for events. Very few I420's are program owned so it is difficult for many kids jump into the class when they are coming out of program owned C420's, but the individual ownership and purchase of new I420 has been increasing and the US fielded their largest ever delegation to the 2016 European events in a very long time. Part of this is due in part to the focus by the US Sailing ODP and Pipeline program. With the I420 Worlds coming to Newport in 2018 I would expect to see this class continue to grow. With a number of new boats being purchased this opens up opportunities for new sailors interested in the class to pick up good boats at reasonable prices and be involved. Say what you want about the boat, but look world wide and see how big an International class this is. Very few classes come close for a double handed dinghy on an international level!
  15. 2016 Olympic Games

    Tcatman, While I hate continuing to derail this thread regarding the Olympics, I think you have summed up the position of our youth sailing better than anyone else so far. I am way more involved in this than I ever thought I would be with kids looking to grow in the sport at a national level, I think your points are right on the mark on so many levels. If we are ever to build a high level competitive class of sailors across a spectrum of international youth classes we need to change some cultures and thinking within those cultures. This has already started at some levels and having attended an ODP clinic with the kids I was amazed at the level of support, coaching, and infrastructure brought to these clinics. There were the best coaches, the best equipment, and no expenses spared. It was honestly a bit humbling being there for the kids. But boy did it light a fire under them to grow in the sport!