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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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kbcH20

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About kbcH20

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    Anarchist
  • Birthday 11/06/1962

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    http://www.wrcra.org
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    Annapolis
  1. Astus 16.5 sails... finally!

    Well that's a bummer...
  2. which multihull jib ?

    Perhaps consider jibs from a NACRA 5.8 or 6.0 North American (NA) rig. With the bow foils the jibs tack lower than the usual beach cat. May still not be enough but it's probably the best shot.
  3. Astus 16.5 sails... finally!

    why not run the tiller under the cross beam? From the pics it doesn't look like you would lose much at all in range of steering.
  4. I demand an answer!

    So, in keeping with the thread - these two cases to me show that the genny is poor choice for upwind work when based against the maxi blades. Probably no real news there. But Lola definitely had a better main than mine - my dacron main has lots of years and miles on it, the shape is a mess and I probably won't be able to replace it until I blow it up as well. But the boat seems to have a sweet spot at around 40 degrees (apparent) off the wind, and I sometimes do better driving from the cockpit going upwind than I do from the float (the float is a nicer ride for sure) which is not what you'll hear from most either IMO.
  5. I demand an answer!

    Yup! On the way to Baltimore we were hanging with you but decided to tuck in a reef - the jib exploded right after the reef and you were gone! We did still manage a 3rd place out of that one. You were nice enough to feed us shrimp scampi and loan us your blade. We re-payed that debt by feeding you dark and stormies and Malomar cookies until the wee hours as a prep for the next day's racing. Of course, there was this other time (Oxford/Hammond) where I borrowed a jib from you but you still had the choice between using your other blade and genny, with you going with the genny. During the Hammond we did our usual horrible barfing up at the start (put the boat in irons without the jib up at a real bad moment) finding ourselves pretty far back from you but then ultimately this happened in the Chopttank: This is the year we got to the front of the multi B fleet (and all but one of the multi A fleet) as the wind dropped out. We doggedly kept on but the time limit expired with a pretty short distance left to the finish. We had long discussions later about when to quit a race... ;-) As you can see we are pretty proud of ourselves when we do well against Lola! Not just kicking Wess here, this thread is about upwind sailing...
  6. I demand an answer!

    My approach is to blow up my jib and then borrow one from Wes, forcing him to use his genny. Then I let him win the start by a bunch. Then I follow him and...
  7. Sound it out - sar-cas-mmmmmmmmm Oops - was only paying attention to my B. Statement, missed all the other junk. So, the B. Statement- sarcasm. Figure out why. 1st blue comment - you actually make my point in your second sentence. Just design and build your boat. 1st red comment - sure, maybe. No, still bullshit. Interesting but meaningless. 2nd blue comment -that's just funny. Formula-18. Spec. Not the lightest you can build an 18 foot catamaran. Weight comparison meaningless. 2nd red comment - sarcasm. Not going to spell out why. 3rd red comment - um, ok. Build your boat and sail it. Build your boat and sail it. If it is the fastest and bestest all the sailors will say "yay!" After that nobody will care much if it's lighter than a Hobie-14.
  8. Wess, Wess, Wess. We need to get you out on an A-Cat. Or a couple miles of double trapped spin reach. You'll come around to my way of thinking. Trap wires on the F-27, baby, flyin' high and sipping dark and stormies. KBC - LOL, you are persistent on trying to kill me in a trapeze thing... I might have to take you up on it again. If we do go forward with the purchase of the new Outremer 45 I swear on the sail home from France, mid-Atlantic, I am going to rig something that looks like a trap, bring a harness, and take a video of us steering her like that with a tiller extension. Dark and Stormie and Mallomars (right??... my head hurts just thinking about that night). Maye that will shut you up forever on this point, LOL. Wess PS - Under 20 feet in length, I bet the cat can be built as light or lighter than any tri. Curious why you seem (??) to think otherwise in #131 above. We are talking real boats that has to hold and sail with one real person aboard and not some RC bathtub toy right? Wes - after today's frostbite we went back out for a ride. Single trap spin ride out of West River, up the shore across the mouth of the South River, dropped chute and headed out past Thomas Point light out into the Bay. Once well past the middle of the Bay, tacked back towards West River. Couple miles of smoking double trapped close reach back to Galesville. Nobody died. I told Cheri to tell you. Trapping from the Outremer across the Atlantic! Awesome! Can I come? Under 20 feet - your last sentence on that mirrors my final thought when I posted that comment. By the way - I know of a smoking deal on a foiling A-Cat. You should buy it. You would need to trap.
  9. I did so love my Hobie-14! Truly.
  10. Sound it out - sar-cas-mmmmmmmmm
  11. Wess, Wess, Wess. We need to get you out on an A-Cat. Or a couple miles of double trapped spin reach. You'll come around to my way of thinking. Trap wires on the F-27, baby, flyin' high and sipping dark and stormies.
  12. P.S. I love Weta's, would certainly consider one when Im too old to trapeze my Hobie 16 That last line about considering one when you're too old to trapeze on the H16... my H16 buddies that have tried the Weta tell me that hiking with your butt out past the rail on the Weta (as well as some of the small performance monohull dingys) requires a lot more physical effort than hanging from a trap wire. I have done both and concur. Of course, if you stay in light air you won't have to hike out that far. Now we get down to how hard does anyone plan to drive a boat and in what conditions. Winner! I crack up when people go on about wouldn't it be great to offer a boat you can go fast and wouldn't have to trapeze on. For fun I ran this topic past some of our local cat guys (one of the early talking points for the Pulse was it was a great thing for beach catters who were tired of trapping). We're mostly getting up there. Most agreed when it was time to hang up trapping on a cat it might be time to retire from sailing - nobody wanted relief from it and thought it an odd question to ask. I find it far more comfy and less painful trapping on my Nacra 20 than climbing around my F-27. The guys in the local big multihull fleet think trapping is the worst thing in the world. Mostly folks about the same age. Difference? One group has done it and the other hasn't. One group will never give it up and the other will probably never try it. There's so much apples and oranges comparison offered as proof of one thing or another on this thread. The comparisons of the Weta versus the Hobie-14 as proof of a trimaran's superiority is a great one! Late 60's boats as proof of the same is another great one. Everglades results of Scissors and Tornados as evidence of the same! All that is worthless and meaningless. Note that I'm not claiming superiority of one configuration over another. I just think the comparisons as proof on this thread are out of whack. Even Oracle vs Alinghi doesn't give proof in my mind - there was enough other things going on there that you can't isolate proof of tri vs cat IMO. Maybe have to break out the old Pro Sail 40 series tapes - designed to specs, there was at least one tri in there (no paddling through canals in everglades on the course either). But again, out of date stuff now. Saying that bigger amas sacrifice speed over low buoyancy amas because of added weight means you aren't considering what happens when you actually power up in a sea state, especially if not foiling or assisted. A little extra weight may not be a bad thing if you can power up and keep things from slapping waves and submerging. Pick your design goals, which are mostly about being the fastest mini-multi in the world because it's a tri. Then work the weight to that. Don't try to believe you'll get the fastest boat by making it fit a picked weight. For some time in various discussions including the first page of this one you find the oft repeated axiom:" you can never build a tri the same length as a cat that weighs the same(or costs the same)". Thats why the history of development including Victor T, the HSP's and others is very meaningful. And why the comparison of Sew Sew with Tornado's is also meaningful -and important. The myths that are perpetuated by those without the information to know better affect development and the potential for development. If you're convinced it can't be done-because you've been a victim of this pervasive misinformation you'll probably be a lot less likely to start a project developing a tri with the specific purpose of being lighter(or as light), faster, easier, cheaper,, or more comfortable than a cat. -- Again, studying successful designs like Sew Sew, Victor T and others is important. Sew Sew is an ocean going high speed tri with small planing amas. The design is worth careful study. It's worth noting that even if a production version of a design like Sew Sew weighed twice what SewSew weighs it would still be 80lbs lighter than an F18! And two feet longer and 10' wider! Bethwaites HSP planing tri-worth study: click- Dude - you didn't highlight the part you should have. The part about "Pick your design goals, which are mostly about being the fastest mini-multi in the world because it's a tri. Then work the weight to that. Don't try to believe you'll get the fastest boat by making it fit a picked weight." Of course you can build a tri lighter than a cat at any given length. I'll say it from the highest mountain top. But the question is should you and if you did would anybody care or want to sail it and how long would it last. That's the point I'm making. And the comparisons, even given the historical perspective and up front thread comments are still crap. Stuff so outdated and mismatched it doesn't mean much. Please compare the weight of the Weta to Amaryllis. The EC is horses for courses. Paddling/rowing a Tornado in a narrow channel upwind to get to a check point might play a bit in finishing comparisons for instance. F-18s are built to a spec, so weight comparisons against a theoretical Sew Sew to prove a point are worthless. Picture of Bethwaite's planing tri - cool. I guess the reason we're not all sailing around in those is because nobody ever listened to Bethwaite. And yes over square boats can generate a lot of RM but then can also become pitch pole machines as you add power to take advantage of the RM. But again, pick your design goals and start designing/building. It you really want to prove your point design both a tri and cat and see where each takes you. That M&M racing foiler looks cool. Looks familiar. Hey, they're trapping!
  13. P.S. I love Weta's, would certainly consider one when Im too old to trapeze my Hobie 16 That last line about considering one when you're too old to trapeze on the H16... my H16 buddies that have tried the Weta tell me that hiking with your butt out past the rail on the Weta (as well as some of the small performance monohull dingys) requires a lot more physical effort than hanging from a trap wire. I have done both and concur. Of course, if you stay in light air you won't have to hike out that far. Now we get down to how hard does anyone plan to drive a boat and in what conditions. Winner! I crack up when people go on about wouldn't it be great to offer a boat you can go fast and wouldn't have to trapeze on. For fun I ran this topic past some of our local cat guys (one of the early talking points for the Pulse was it was a great thing for beach catters who were tired of trapping). We're mostly getting up there. Most agreed when it was time to hang up trapping on a cat it might be time to retire from sailing - nobody wanted relief from it and thought it an odd question to ask. I find it far more comfy and less painful trapping on my Nacra 20 than climbing around my F-27. The guys in the local big multihull fleet think trapping is the worst thing in the world. Mostly folks about the same age. Difference? One group has done it and the other hasn't. One group will never give it up and the other will probably never try it. There's so much apples and oranges comparison offered as proof of one thing or another on this thread. The comparisons of the Weta versus the Hobie-14 as proof of a trimaran's superiority is a great one! Late 60's boats as proof of the same is another great one. Everglades results of Scissors and Tornados as evidence of the same! All that is worthless and meaningless. Note that I'm not claiming superiority of one configuration over another. I just think the comparisons as proof on this thread are out of whack. Even Oracle vs Alinghi doesn't give proof in my mind - there was enough other things going on there that you can't isolate proof of tri vs cat IMO. Maybe have to break out the old Pro Sail 40 series tapes - designed to specs, there was at least one tri in there (no paddling through canals in everglades on the course either). But again, out of date stuff now. Saying that bigger amas sacrifice speed over low buoyancy amas because of added weight means you aren't considering what happens when you actually power up in a sea state, especially if not foiling or assisted. A little extra weight may not be a bad thing if you can power up and keep things from slapping waves and submerging. Pick your design goals, which are mostly about being the fastest mini-multi in the world because it's a tri. Then work the weight to that. Don't try to believe you'll get the fastest boat by making it fit a picked weight.
  14. 2016 NASS Annapolis to Oxford

    There is a beach cat class! It's a great race to work on your beach cat distance racing chops, besides being a fun race overall. As is the Hammond Memorial the next day!
  15. 2016 NASS Annapolis to Oxford

    Also, if you have a multi that's a little bigger than a beach cat there's a multihull A and B class. Bring 'em! www.chesapeakemultihulls.org