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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.


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About erikM

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  • Birthday 01/21/1952

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  • Location
    Marseilles ( France)
  • Interests
    Any recommendation fora light weight sailor on A class catamaran would be appreciated.
  1. We are a group of French A class sailors. We recognize that the A class is a development class and therefore we find fully legitimate the desire of those who want to develop as a foliling class. Nevertheless it is, for us, obvious that the performance of foiling boats is a large improvement over the performance of the older designed floating boats and even more so now that foiling upwind is possible. Competition between these 2 types of boat has become meaningless. We also believe that foiling boats require physical, technical and financial capacities that are out of reach for most of us. Consequently, inspired by our Italian friends and fully in line with the French sailing federation, we have decided to create a new French classic A class : ACCF (A-cat Classic France) This new association is meant to be complementary to the actual AFCCA, specially for newcomers, and we would be ready to rejoin IACA if and when they decide to create the 2 appropriate sub-divisions
  2. I have the same platform, and laser leveled the foils, with the hull set level to it's average waterline from my average sailing position (upwind) . I got around 15mm IIRC . Your mileage may vary...greatly.Due to some of the stuff Simon said as well as inconsistencies in manufacturing. My rudders are drilled different to each other, for example. Odds are pretty good I'm heavier (215 ilbs.) than you also. Thanks for your answers. I am well aware of the impact of the helmsman’s position on the A.O.A. But the importance and variety of problem parameters do not take away the importance of selecting good base position for the daggerboard. How can one know that he is not sailing with a negative A.O.A, which I believe should be avoided by all means? If the A.O.A were to be zero, may I assume that there is no lift at all despite the fact that the board is curved and that it is behaving in fact as a straight board?
  3. I’d like to ask you guys a simple question and maybe trivial for some of you. I have a 2012 DNA with C boards (model 2). I’d like to determine the position of the C board in the slider that corresponds to a zero A.O.A. (preferably expressed in terms of mm of space at the back of the slider). Can I further assume that at a zero angle of attack there is no lift at all despite the fact that the board is curved?
  4. I am wondering how you could know that as the vote was just over 2 hours ago in Punta Ala. Insider's knowledge?
  5. That’s great ! The poor will float and the rich will fly. As the flyers are also likely to be very agile it will be easy for the ladies to detect the most attractive mates, who, according to Darwin, should then be able to reproduce more easily. An ingenious way to improve mankind… and keep the class prosperous.
  6. Don’t forget sub-divisions too! Some are floaters and no rule 8ers, etc… The main characteristic of our trendsetters being: Often mistaken, but never in doubt!
  7. You are right, and I regret it too, but it is the price to pay in a development class where some are more interested in finding the little trick that will give them a speed advantage over their competitors, rather than improving their technique and tactics, that for me are the core of competitive sailing.
  8. But at what cost? Practicality Cost The word optimum, by definition should encompass all parameters including costs and practicality. If indeed in the beginning R/D leads to costly and/or unpractical solutions either they will be considered acceptable or they will be abandoned and R/D will find other solutions. By the way some could already find the present foiling state of the art, costly and unpractical.
  9. In basic optimization theory though, removing an active constraint (e.g. rule n°8) can only lead to an improved optimum!
  10. Just to put some detail to this. There are a number of issues that mean that non rule 8 compliant boards will add significant costs to our sailing. First, as pointed out, because of the span and the way it acts as a lever, the whole board has to be significantly stronger. However, the shape of the board also contributes to this. If you end up with an L or V board, the problem of strength is at the sharp turn between the vertical and horizontal parts. You cannot simply make the section thicker. The combination of these 2 problems means that you have a couple of options. You can overcome them by using a lot more material, but this leads to heavy foils, maybe something like double the weight of existing foils which are already heavier than straight or C foils. This is a real problem because most builders are only just building to minimum weight. Without making the platforms lighter, you could easily add 5kgs to the weight of the boat and maybe even more. The way of avoiding that is to use high modulus carbon and advanced construction techniques. Either way, you are going to add significant costs. Last year, I got some quotes on this and I would estimate that well made L/V/up-tip foils that are strong enough and light enough will end up adding between $4000 and $6000 to the cost of our boats. You can buy a complete rule 8 legal conversion kit for $4000 (rudders, stocks, fittings, centreboards, cases and sliders). One quote I got from a supplier with a proven track record for non compliant rudders and centreboards was over $8000. If you are happy for your boards to add 5+kgs to the weight of your boat you can probably bring the total cost down to $2-3000 more than compliant foils. Then we need to make the boats lighter, which costs more money for the same strength and in the end, you pay extra anyway. Rule 8 has had a lot of negative press, but people have missed the good side of it. First, it has defined a "box" for us to play in which will prevent too many different development paths that will lead to lots of cost. There is a reason why the America's Cup also have rules regarding the foils - it keeps costs down. Second, it makes the boats practical. Insert from below really does create a boat that is far harder to launch and recover as a single hander. Enough people have tried it for this to be well known. It's fine on flat water and moderate breeze, but in waves or higher winds the risks of bottoming out the boards is high. Rule 8 also sets limits on how big/long the boards are and this has very significant cost implications. So, by accident, rule 8 actually isn't as bad as people think it is. What i find most puzzling is why people believe that getting rid of rule 8 will actually make such a big difference. Let's get 1 thing clear - getting rid of rule 8 will not lead to foiling upwind. To start with, look at the Flying Phantom and Nacra F20. They do not foil upwind when racing, because the VMG of floating is better. There are a number of reasons why that is, but they miss the point, namely that they choose not to foil upwind. The other big reason why A's will have an issue foiling upwind is because the boat is too narrow and the rig too high - we are down on righting moment compared with other cat foilers and the CoE is too high. Some believe that foiling will improve with lower rigs, which it might, but it still doesn't change the righting moment factor. And this has been proven because somebody has already made a far wider A. There is also a belief that it will make foiling easier. This does have some merit, but everything is relative. And the biggest reasons why current boats don't foil very well are that they are not set up right and people do not sail them flat enough. Look at the many photos - those foiling properly are dead flat, those not foiling properly are always heeled. As for set up, just look at what Matt Struble did. He started with the set up of one of the better foilers but quickly identified changes needed to be made. So, in terms of the current boats, the more people learn and understand foiling, the easier it will be, something we saw in the Moths. The other big misconception is that easier to foil equates to faster. For some who are struggling on the current foils, this might be so, but for the front guys, they are foiling very nicely with the current "difficult" boards. It has been shown in a number of situations that there is a inverse relationship between ease of flight and speed. In some cases, the speed comes at too higha price and the boat is too difficult to sail, but don't think that by dropping rule 8 we are going to get boats that are a lot easier to foil than the current boats. Dropping rule 8 will probably mean we end up with different foils than we have today, but how much better will they be? I see no evidence that suggests they will be so much better as to justify the costs and inconvenience. I used to think the opposite, until people began experimenting, but I believe that there is enough real world experience out there that means we shouldn't be changing the rules, even on a trial basis. If people believe otherwise, simply do what others have done and build something and go trial it against your friends to prove the concept. Only then ask if you may join in real A Class events. The present situation is unsatisfactory. First the competition between foilers and floaters is not fair and second it is dangerous (foilers downwind on the wire cannot manoeuver as fast as floaters). The obvious solution is to have 2 series: 1 floating and 1 foiling (not only through abolition of rule n°8 but also allowing foiling upwind).
  11. Erik You are getting things pretty distorted. This is not about the A's being a development class. It is about changing the rules. If the rule changes are done correctly, i have no issue, but for one country to unilaterally fuck the class is wrong. It is also nothing like the situation facing "floaters" because they are not facing a rule change. All the development done so far has been done within a set of rules and while some cry because they thought that foiling was banned, the fact is that it isn't. And you also fail to understand that foiling is not a small group of sailors trying to do something that has an impact on the majority. Foilers or those who support foiling A's are now the majority within the class. I agree that what our American colleagues are doing is a breach against the rules but for me foiling itself is also a breach against the intention of rule n°8. So as we are not playing a gentleman’s game why not be the slyest? And maybe foilers are a majority in your ball park but certainly not around me.
  12. This controversy reminds me of the quarrel between ancients and moderns in 17th century France. One thinks he is a modern and one morning wakes up as an ancient. Welcome to my club. And Simon as I was once told: This is a development class, if you don’t like it sail a HC16. You say : “Worse, a small group of sailors have taken it on themselves to do something that will have a major impact on all A Class sailors” So now you truly understand how floaters feel.
  13. Simple answer says it depends what you mean by "scientific rigor". The problem in sailing is you cannot get the same person sailing 2 different boats against himself at the same time! However, sailing in a training group, we have seen a lot of evidence that C foils are quicker around a course, by some margin. Upwind, there seems to be little difference in all conditions. It is downhill, once you are sailing wild, that the difference is very noticeable. Once you add winglets to the rudders, it gets bigger still, although to be fair, I cannot say what effect adding winglets to a straight foil boat would have, but the combination of wingets and C foils can be driven a lot harder downhill by trapezing than you can do on a straight foil boat. Other evidence comes from comparative performance against other classes. A good benchmark is Stevie Brewin's performances at Kurnell. When i started in the class, Stevie was sailing a straight board Tool and while he won on handicap against the F18's, he couldn't beat them around the course. Last year, in the big handicap event and sailing off the same handicap as the F18's, Stevie won on the water. That was sailing off a handicap of 67.5. That tells me that the boats are now significantly quicker and looking at the past handicaps and results, I would say that a C foil boat with winglets on the rudders are about 2 - 2.5 minutes quicker in a 40 minute race than the old straight board boats. Of course, that isn't very scientific but I believe that it gives us a fair indication of order of magnitude. And as for the new foils - J, Z and whatever else comes along - I believe we are talking about an even bigger jump. I believe in the power of statistical analysis. However sailing speed is a function of so many parameters that I don’t believe that statistics could find a decent correlation between speed and dagger boards curvature radius (considering also the scarcity of data points). I would believe in sophisticated simulation models such as the ones probably used by AC syndicates. I would also believe in practical tests such as switching boards on the water with a reference boat nearby, provided that the results are repetitive. I am also of the intuitive opinion that upwind, C boards do not really help. They probably help downwind but from what you say “C foils can be driven a lot harder downhill by trapezing than you can do on a straight foil boat.” I get the impression that the advantage is only there, say above 12 knots of wind. But I ‘d agree with you that J or Z boards (when foiling) would give a much bigger jump.
  14. I see from the figures presented in the cat yardsticks document that C dagger boards for A cats are supposed to be significantly superior than straight boards. Is there any evidence of this? Upwind and downwind, light and heavy winds. By evidence, I mean results of tests being carried out with some “scientific rigor”, not just gut feelings or following the trend in fashion.