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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Solen

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About Solen

  • Rank
    Anarchist

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  • Location
    Lake Superior
  • Interests
    Sailing, tweaking, fixing, sailing.
  1. What about free standing rigs?

    too complicated but it looks so right! http://tugster.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/aaaawr.jpg
  2. What about free standing rigs?

    This is practical... http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/14259440/sn/798809228/name/n_a
  3. What about free standing rigs?

    What I heard from the Freedom sailor side is exactly what DDW mentions about complexity. The wishbone wraparound sails were great when you needed 100% but hard to reef and not well suited for the new more durable but also stiffer sail cloth. The world does go around, even for those who wish to stop it ;-) maybe someone will invent flexible sailcloth that is dimensionally stable so we can try those things again.
  4. What about free standing rigs?

    I found an article that show that metal wire stays are so passe that is would be embarrassing to be seen using them: http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/03_synthetic_fiber_ropes.pdf from the University-National Oceanographic Laboratory System RI - they have other interesting papers. I also saw some posts on a 4x4 bulletin board that mentioned that getting hit by a broken metal winch cable was pretty ugly, whereas the synthetic lines merely gave you a lashing (lashings and pain make you a better sailor, right?)
  5. What about free standing rigs?

    The concept is covered by Sailing Theory and Practice by C.A. Marchaj-published by Dodd, Mead and Co - I do not have the book (yet). There is a posting here on the subject: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/rotating-wing-mast-theoretical-discussion-14714.html I tried it on my Freedom 21 which you see in the picture I posted above. My first try was best because the sail would "fall out" in line with the backside of the mast. As I tried to rig better control lines the sail pulled more behind the mast and the benefits were reduced. This was disappointing but it is consistent with theory. I think simplicity is essential for success so the Van der Stadt method is fine for expensive boats but overkill for affordable production boats - the benefits are real but I only think they are sufficiently important on a cat-rig or racing sloop ti build is as complicated as that. I have been toying with a design for a triangular mast where the sail track and boom move from side to side so here it is: For the heck of it I included a public domain copyright statement - does that make me an anarchist? A sliding sail track would work on small boats - a forward hinged sail track would probably be necessary on big boats to manage the forces
  6. What about free standing rigs?

    DSS like stability systems have been in widespread use for years on motor vessels. I first saw it in the '60 on large car ferries where it helped by keeping the passengers from puking all over. The Costa Concordia has it - maybe that's what the captain tore off to get enough impact to overwhelm the bulkheads? http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/14/article-2086527-0F75B20E00000578-975_964x494.jpg Some years ago we sailed in 25-30 kt and pretty big waves. I was with a friend on his Cal 30-3 and another friend was on his Westerly 29' Konsort DUO - it was impossible for us to go as fast or point as high as the Westerly, one keel was pointed straight down and the other showed it shoulder occasionally acting much like a stabilizer http://falmouth.boat...%20Boatshed.com Comparing the Konsort Duo with the Quant28 you will see that on the Westerly one keel is pretty much pointed straight down at normal heeling angles while the "upper" keel is more likely to be in the water than on a Quant28 http://www.boatdesig...50-port-aft.jpg - both are fighting the extra wetted surface. It would be great to see something more practical come from all of this. Maybe twin keels weighed with a heavy liquid (Mercury?) that could be pumped to the windward side when needed.
  7. What about free standing rigs?

    BV you are right I know little about racing, I usually sail alone. In the Apostle Islands on Lake Superior where I sail now the racers actually hold "drifting contests" every year by scheduling their race-week during July when the wind is feeble, that hasn't help me understand any better. On a positive note here's an example of a more "modern" suit for a Freedom 33 cat ketch. <a href='http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/14259440/sn/798809228/name/n_a' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://xa.yimg.com/k...809228/name/n_a</a> here's another (earlier) more radical English built Freedom 35 cat ketch - I seem to remember it was implemented by a Dutch sailmaker/rigger. <a href='http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EHxCT4ecEOpLf9E7femTRPSqkUo7IaM1wgQQLV5vqL0mZyihrZ6EN1J8iJeig1ktAOScqQQFDbQodJjm-iUY5yznqFkTz0gSQg/Sail%20plan%20F35%20G10%20type%20Rev%2001.ppt' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://f1.grp.yahoof...%20Rev%2001.ppt</a> I hope the links work......
  8. What about free standing rigs?

    If this is still about unstayed rigs let me add a few diversions, in no particular order. The disadvantage of the unstayed rig is NOT weight - it is excess bending - which when compensated for with a large diameter tube equals weigh. The corresponding disadvantage of a stayed rig is windage from mast AND wires, the power of which you hear in any marina when the wind pipes up. The advantage of unstayed rigs is that you can give the sail the shape you want, including a big powerful roach AND the right twist on both points of sail. The corresponding disadvantage of a stayed rig is that you end up with most of the sailarea on the deck and little pointy pieces at the top (researchers says the crab claw is the most efficient). Another advantage of the unstayed rig is that you can turn turn the sail in the direction you want and use lift on a almost all points of sail. This is impossible on a stayed rig which is why they invented beer can races that mostly go upwind so no one will notice this. The (first) disadvantage of the cat-rig on an unstayed mast is not lack of weatherliness, it is that the mast is in the way of the front edge of the sail. You need a clean edge to get upwind not necessarily a backstay . The stayed rig can carry a headsail on a wire that helps guide the wind around a less efficient mailsail hiding behind a "not quite so big" mast (that still sucks). The second (rig independent) disadvantage of the cat-rig is that the center of effort changes with trim - this means you have to have the courage to give it a decent rudder - if you don't it will round up (Duh!) This does not have anything to do with stays and a lot to do with where you place the sticks (as Tanton has demonstrated and explained). However with stays you have to put the stick in the middle of the boat in order to be able to hold it up (middle of the boats, pointy inefficient upside down sails, whistling at night ....... ) These factors make unstayed rigs impractical and unsuitable for people who are not comfortable with anything outside the norm - and this particularly applies to people who are uncomfortable experiment with new and old technologies - or beer can racers who have to live by "The Mans" rules. There are fortunately many cool things the rest of us can play with: An old trick previously known as Gaf-Rings move the sail back from the mast and opens a slot that research has demonstrated increases sail efficiency - this help improve the efficiency of the sail behind the mast. Gaf-Rings slide real nice on unstayed masts - even all the way to the top! Others have used different spacer of modern materials. It works. The Van der Stadt boom is an example of how you can move the sail curve to the lee of the mast - doing so improves sail efficiency significantly. This can be done with or w/o stays. It works. A proper sail with full battens can provide a huge roach which can be nicely twisted in or out at will with the properly rigged boom or wishbone. It works. Unstayed masts can be flexible which means they wont break when you fall off the waves - and they bend in gusts although I am not convinced it spills as much air as it keeps them from breaking. It works. Mast shape, bend and curve is totally free-style with unstayed masts as long as it holds up and stays up. I really want to try this. Solen, I confess, I sailed a quick little freestanding mast cat rigged boat for 20+ years, and whenever I made an update, she rewarded me instantly.