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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.


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About Skol

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  • Birthday 01/01/1974

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  • Location
    Brest, Bretagne
  • Interests
    foredeck overboard expert. PBR can spinnaker pole construction. bailing water.
  1. Lark, my boat experience is all in-water, so I don't have direct experience for you. What I know is that the stuff that's marketed as "dux" is a lot more stiff than regular amsteel. it's not as stiff as wire but it shouldn't snag because of kinking while laying untensioned. A bonus for regular Amsteel I think would be keeping it neatly coiled on deck while the stick is down. I'm a little OCD so maybe that's just me. the WLL for amsteel, dux, and dyneema branded ropes are all so high that I wouldn't give a second thought to UV exposure and the 5 yrs of hard use. My first handling of amsteel was with jeeps and land rovers. winching 5k of truck through hub-deep mud filled with roots and rocks is a lot scarier to me than popping a shroud. broken winch cables have been known to slice through people. when synthetic pops it just falls to the ground. the couple times I've seen it fail there was damage to rig or tree from stored energy in kinetic straps, not the rope itself.
  2. Tempest, your rigger's prices seem super competitive (good) to me, and it makes me happy to see you addressing this now. The advantage to this route is that it gets done and gets you on the water sooner. The advantage to synthetic route is elitism and a stiffer boat for roughly the same cost. If you decide to convert in a couple years all those SS turnbuckles are still a good, reusable. investment. After you get the rigging and the spreaders done, I'd splash it. New sails will improve the boat 100%, but without a baseline to compare them with it won't be obvious on your first boat, never mind a new-to-you boat. run whatcha got, chill some cold ones and get 'er splashed!
  3. thanks Nick for chiming in. I'm still a bit bummed with the changes but will look out for ProAm. Keep up the good fight. VOR is the pinnacle of offshore yacht racing and I hate to see it lose ground to trendy bullshit. I'm also a biz guy so I understand the whys.
  4. Who gives a shit about AC cup lite at VOR? Ridiculous! The point of the the inshore races was to give people a chance to see the same boats being raced on the ocean legs. The design looks like a hideous insect, not a boat. It's like a Prius version of a boat, when crowds are expecting a Fisker. VOR has been reduced to another boring ass OD boat race with Olympic athletes for crew. Who cares.
  5. keep digging on the forums and you'll understand the issues a bit better. the rigging you've got is dead as a door nail for sure. So - 5mm Sk75 dyneema is a bit over $1 /ft and plenty UV resistant for a trailered boat. this stuff is what the fishing industry uses offshore in conditions we can't even dream of in our worst nightmares if we tried. 30 ft stick comes out to roughly 175ft total for lowers, uppers, stays. so less than 200 bucks. the big costs are hardware. Colligo Marine's prices seem to have crept up a bit since I last looked, but you'll need the spreader tangs, dead eyes, and new turnbuckles (which you'll want same as wire, anyway). So it comes down to the swaging costs + material from the rigger compared to the sexy hard parts from colligo. I wouldn't trust swaged terminals of my own doing, and the sta-loc bits are $$$. a feller with a SJ 24 came to the same conclusions as I did - more on his blog here: http://restore24.blogspot.fr/2013/04/colligo-dux-standing-rigging.html he made his own hw parts and the cost came out to be less than wire. not many folks have gone this route because it seems like a break from the tried and true, but I think the synthetic is better in every way. I recall reading somewhere that losing 1lb aloft is like adding 6lbs in the keel. you're getting back a lot of righting moment which means a stiffer boat. re: spreaders - you're not looking to go offshore or do a lot of racing, so normal spreader replacement kit and riveted brackets will work fine. I don't see a dimple like I had on mine. new hw here will likely still set you back ~200 - 400. EYO is the best place to find exact details. on the round vs. foil spreader debate, I'd go with what's economical for your purposes (round). I agree with Jim - that bulkhead doesn't look so good as the core is clearly delaminated at the top. You've got your work cut out for you there. I'd worry about the gelcoat and cosmetic stuff last. The bow looks about like mine did, right down to the ugly anchor setup. Lots of good info to be had online for using West system to fill and redrill holes. But don't remove a single screw until you're ready to do the whole job! If you caulk the crap out of it you can keep enough water out for this season to delay it until next year (epoxy likes heat to cure). Not sure about the deck on the 23. My 27 was balsa. also I agree 100% with Lark about the bottom. no need for ablative paint on a trailer boat. sand the bottom, fair it, then roll 'n tip with a hard paint for easy cleaning.
  6. I like your thinkin', and I've had the same path of thought, roughly. I've had a GOB, classic wood boats, and now want to build a modern boat in wood. I know your waters (Seattleite for 15 yrs), and I think you'll be fine with the vessel you describe. the big deal there of course is keeping out of the way of the ferries, and having enough power to keep ch16 open and the ability to burn good navigation lights. Going down the coast on her bottom could be feasible, but you'll trailer it back home. You know the best way from San Diego or SF back to Seattle is through Hawaii. For a good idea of a southward coastal journey, lookup the blog for "Cruising Lealea", a retired couple that cruise an intrepid Albin Vega 27 GOB. They have a good log too of the voyage from Hawaii -> PNW, and are posting regularly about a years long refit of the AV 27. The waters around here seem no less epic. The Iroise on an angry day is something to behold. Celtic sea to the north, bay of Biscay to the south. There are a lot of fair weather days for light and moderate wind sailing, and wx is fairly predictable so small craft can be deployed with common sense. I like the woods designed tris and will probably go that route to try something new (and fast).
  7. The floating equivalent of a Victorian folly. This is what happens when somebody with too much money decides to build around their "requirements".
  8. yeah - I think I get it. don't be fooled by craigslist prices on GOB (good old boats). A 4k boat is a 15k - 20k investment to do what you want to do. I've been down this road once and will never do it again. If you're not OD racing, I am now of the opinion that it's easier and more cost effective to build or have someone else build the hull of the exact boat you want. Sure, you can do some fine bay sailing for less money on a GOB but it's not going to be in a condition that you could trust your life with it in adverse conditions. Once you've rehabilitated the mast, replaced all the rigging (and I mean *all* of the rigging), refastened and/or beefed up the chainplates, fixed the soft spots in the deck, and rebedded and/or replaced all the deck hardware - congratulations. you've just built a new boat. EPIRBs, exposure suits, AIS, SSB, and other necessary equipment for offshore passage making doesn't give a shit about what boat it's on. All that stuff adds up. back to boats - certainly I'm not of the opinion that safety or seaworthiness is a function of waterline length, but speed is. At some point you need to go upwind, and sometimes you need waterline to make speed against both current and wind alike. Historically speaking, ~20ft seems to be a practical limit for WLL on an engineless boat, with much more from the overhangs when stretched out on her beam. The old square meter designs, J-boats, 5.5 class, Folkboat (already mentioned), and lots of other traditional boats with a full keel, fine entry and narrow beams really excel beating to windward without beating the shit out of the crew. You can semi-sail a cork with a spinnaker around the globe if you time your legs with trades and currents - everything depends on what kind of passages you want to make and where. A lot of lightweight boats are built to go fast downhill and that's fine sailing inside of established cruising areas with a modicum of common sense. For big crossings, a lot of those small boat guys are selling their boats after arriving some weeks to a new destination (esp. the E-W Hawaii runs) because they can't handle the local conditions when they get there. When coastal sailing in high latitudes, or island hopping the wrong direction at the edge of the wrong time of the year, your life is going to be in the hands of upwind ability while being reefed and under shortened sail. If there's nowhere to run, you could just as easily die of fatigue trying to beat up wind. So pay attention to waterline and the ability to get off a lee shore, coral heads, and whatever else might be waiting for you out there with it's claws out in the dark. closing thought - I truly believe the newer design features that incorporate sealed flotation compartments, water ballast in combination with leaded drop keels, and crush boxes in the bow are all inherently safer than anything found on a GOB, including the ones I speak fondly of. Don't fool yourself. A turtled Cal 20 is going to the bottom.
  9. I think the OP is more interested in engineless to keep it simple and avoid the hassle of auxiliary power. I could be wrong there, but I like the concept. Speaking of - a buddy of mine fabricated some beefy oarlocks into the cockpit of his engineless Pearson Triton(!). Each oar is about 3 meters long IIRC. For getting in and out of marina slips (he's on the outside dock of a very wide channel, so not much interference - get the bow pointed at the slip, row like hell and let momentum do the rest), dodging rocks on low wind/high current days, or rowing maybe 200 yards down a channel it's great. Echo'ing someone else's comment above about rowing a displacement boat, any more than that is an unsustainable effort. I highly recommend looking at a yuloh to scull the boat from the stern instead of oars. You can scull the boat pretty well while standing up and be facing forward, and it's more practical for powering in and around marinas since the oars aren't interfering with anything abeam of the boat. There's a great race during one of the maritime festivals here in Brittany where people race ~20ft workboats around a little course in L'Aber W'rach marina. Properly motivated those little boats were leaving a nice wake, and I think the women's race was quicker!
  10. From the same site: http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/20mk3/ checks off all the OP's boxes including oars. How blue is blue water? If a guy can paddle a standup dinghy across the Atlantic surely this thing can make it, too. Add up the cost of a complete cal 20 refit including acquisition, then price the build kit on this thing. No contest, and this looks like a much better designed boat for short handed sailing.
  11. He's gonna get bored of Pond sailing real quick when he's got the strait of Georgia in his back yard And Hell yeah! Synthetic is so much nicer than wire and I think splicing rope for DIY guys is better than swaging terminals. Once you add up all the hard parts for terminals and bottle screws or turnbuckles for wire, changing over to synthetic just isn't that much more expensive on a small boat. Also - soft sail hanks on a synthetic forestay will make handling genoas a lot easier. Lastly, since this is a ramp launched boat it's going to be easier with synthetic. Fair bottom, good rigging, a strong spar and spreaders, and crisp sails are the important parts. Strip everything inside to the hull, replace any thruhulls with marlon and worry about the rest over the winter.
  12. so do 26' westerly centaurs, but I don't think you could accuse them of racing I have never seen the EC22 until this thread. what a cool boat.
  13. Since you're an SA'er first and we love to spend other people's money, it's time to talk about what kind of rigging. On your E-23 you can probably easily shave 20-30lbs of weight aloft if you go synthetic on the standing rigging: colligo dux, new england ropes HSR heat set stuff, or since this is a trailer sailer, regular dyneema would be just fine assuming the shrouds and stays are stored out of the sun. Rig a ground anchor somewhere and use your diesel truck to pre-stretch the shrouds and set your splices. ditto on all the halyards.upgrade the sheaves for rope (as they are surely v-sheaves for wire), and use soft shackles on everything - no hard parts. L-36.com has loads of good info here. few other items - Ericson glassed the chainplates into the hull. It's rare for them to pull out but not unheard of. People have different philosophies on repair. my vote is for a hole through the hull and chainplate, SS thru-bolt + loads of exoxy. Some swap over to external chainplates but this kills your sheeting angles on the jib, and you need all the help you can get. Since you're single and don't have kids, I'd seal off the stanchion holes and ditch the lifelines unless you plan racing, in which case rip it all out and reseal it anyway with epoxy, then drill new holes and use G10 backing plates where you're able. synthetic on the lifelines is also nicer than the plastic covered wire. at the bow, you're going to want to carefully un-fuck any and everything that's been bolted to it - nav lights, ill-advised anchor fittings, cleats, and the pulpit. pull it all out, dig out the core a bit in the holes and epoxy the shit out of everything, then redrill and re-install. it's a biggish job but straight forward.
  14. and lots more doing fair-weather the beam-reach / downhill runs to hawaii from california in small boats. but crossing the pacific and atlantic with best known seafaring routes to western minds is not a tour of the great capes and all her seas. I think transat and transpac crossings, while not to be taken lightly, can maybe give some a sense of overconfidence. To date I still have crossed neither, and not sure when or if I ever will. I really like small boats but I don't have a death wish. I've talked to guys who had their asses handed to them in the indian ocean on 39 ft cruisers, having dealt with cracks in the keel from rigging strain, multiple knockdowns, broken steering etc - all the fun stuff. or there's stories like the crew who got knocked into davey jones locker from a 100ft rogue wave off the e. coast of africa. 2 lost at sea, 2 hobbled into port. bad shit happens to great sailors and the best of boats. again - I don't think the ability to handle the transat means much.
  15. Ericson are indeed the champagne of 70's production plastic classics, some with more cork damage than others. Much has been written about plastic liner boats, most rooted in misinformation and contempt. My first sailboat was an ericson 27 and I loved it, but I didn't have the cash to finish a refit before having to move. Some of my plight is recorded here in SA and on EYO under the same user name. The spar repair kit was about 700 usd including new spreaders and brackets, iirc. What happens is that one or both of the cast metal spreader brackets develops a crack and breaks, giving the spreader room to wiggle under load. As a result a dimple forms in the mast. Check yours - you might be lucky and not need it but it's a known weak point. Once the stick and rigging are upgraded, fear no winds nor seas. The bulbous and odd shapes of the ericson boats love breeze - and a lot of it. They are tender when first meeting the wind but stiffen up as it piles on. The rudder will lose grip before you can dunk the rail. Also - the slug keel will point higher than you might guess. Not fast boats but not complete slugs, either, and every one I've helmed up to 35 are a real joy to sail. Looking forward to your progress.