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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

JimC

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About JimC

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    Anarchist
  • Birthday January 1

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    http://www.devboats.co.uk
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  • Location
    South East England
  • Interests
    Dinghies, especially box rule classes.

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  1. New 1975 FD

    I fear it would be something of a challenge to find a museum that wanted to buy it.
  2. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    I have read https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/ISCA_President_Letter_Nov-07-17.pdf several times and see no great emphasis on the need not to sign up to ISCO. The other weak point for ISCA is what exactly do they do if LP make an insignificant change to the spec that pus the boats out of class. Say that Sunfish built after xx.xx.2018 aren't really Sunfish? Good luck with that. I hope ISCA prevail. If they work their arses off and avoid getting into the legal system any further than cease and desist letters then I think there's a small chance they can. But if ILCO can claim significant uptake among Sunfish sailors they are finished. There will always be enough people who will 'compromise' that some sort of Sunfish organisation will continue. It may be a greatly inferior organisation, but most people won't care. We had an example recently in the UK. A site owner effectively closed down a long established sailing club by making it impossible for them to operate as a proper sailing club. Within days there was a new body with a significant, if smaller membership, operating in accordance with the new conditions the developer wanted to unilaterally impose.
  3. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    The key thing ISCA have to do, and which I don't see them doing, is to encourage their membership *not* to sign up to ISCO. If ISCO can demonstrate a membership as large as ISCAs then the game is effectively over. Nothing else really matters nearly as much. Because if LP can demonstrate that ISCO represents more Sunfish sailors than ISCA then World sailing has little choice but to recognise them. And LP will be doing everthing they can to inflate that membership figure. Every Sunfish sailor who says, well of course I support ISCA, but if I sign up free to ISCO as well I also get this benefit or this freebie is ensuring LP wins. Don't be mistaken, any contact with LP about Sunfish will get you signed up as an ISCO member. I bet all the ISCA officers and volunteers that LP have on any mailing lists are already on the ISCO membership list.
  4. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    I agree, but for different reasons. It can put people's backs up to see in print rumours about what they are supposed to be thinking, and ISCA need all the friends they can get in order to counter LPs money.I think I'd have been happier to see "naturally we are in deep discussion with our friends and representatives at World Sailing, and as soon as we have any news we will bring it to you."
  5. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    If they are careful not to use LPs trademarks in any manner they are not allowed to, and careful not to represent themselves as being supported by or associated with LP in any way, its hard to see what action LP could take against them. Trademark law is well established, it shouldn't be too hard to set the boundaries.
  6. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    So am I. Bloody near identical acronyms. Especially with LP involved as well. Replace Ls with Ss. Except where you shouldn't.
  7. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Not true. They apply to all races under World sailing rules. However if you break the class rules all that happens is that the boat ceases to be a Sunfish, which is no problem if the NOR has no problem with accepting entries from "not-quite-sunfish". However if you claim the boat is a Sunfish when its not, in any race, then technically we are into RRS69 territory. Ultimately I still think its down to the sailors. If they sign up to the ILCO in such numbers that the ILCO represents more sailors than the ILCA then I think WS/ISAF will have little choice but to change which class association they recognise. There is a para or two in the regs about responsibilities of the CA which may give some kind of justification for saying the ILCA had not met their responsibilities. If the ILCA continues to represent the vast majority of Sunfish sailors, and together with WS/ISAF alter class rules to remove all use of genuine LP trademarks, then I would think the ILCA/WS would be at liberty to introduce new builders for the newly renamed class.
  8. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Trouble is if ISCO can demonstrate more signed up members than ISCA it will be hard for WS to resist the proposition. Which of course is why LP are offering free membership. Ultimately its going to be down to the sailors.
  9. VPP for dinghies and skiffs

    I've used it to evaluate downwind options in my IC. Given a short track and reasonably frequent gybing the immediate true wind was fairly obvious, which also gave the angle, and speed changes give an idea of gust or no. I felt I had enough data to establish I was getting the best vmg for a downwind track with the jib poled out to windward and reverse flow on the jib. Both sails setting cleanly the same side was clearly sailing too far, and a conventional stalled out goosewinged jib was too slow. Obviously you could learn much more with a much more structured session than I was doing. A boat on boat two boat tuning session is better if you have no instrumentation I think, but for those who can't organise that I felt I had enough to be reasonable confident about the best downwind configuration.
  10. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Trademark law primarily I *think* you'll find. The ISAF submissions in the topic I posted earlier seem to be all about trademarks.
  11. ISAF Antitrust Regulation?

    You really need to read all the proposals plus have a lot of other background to understand what's going on I think. I don't know enough. The Russian Yachting Federation is listed in many of the proposals, and while I doubt they care much about EU regulations, I imagine they do care about predatory multinationals excluding their citizens from being able to make a fair living. The main NAs behind it see to be eastern and southen europe by the looks, it doesn't seem to be coming from the EU core. The list of NAs who've put their name to one of the proposals is Hungarian Yachting Association, Czech Sailing Association, Real Federación Española de Vela, Hellenic Sailing Federation, Federação Portuguesa de Vela, Russian Yachting Federation, Slovak Sailing Union, Turkish Sailing Federation.
  12. VPP for dinghies and skiffs

    Where on earth did the RS200 plot come from? I find it hard to believe.
  13. Just been reviewing the ISAF submissions for the Annual conference. There are a good number about proposed anti-monopoly and Antitrust regulations. Seems EU law is becoming an issue. Here's an example. Its all very interesting in light of Laser/Sunfish/LPE...
  14. VPP for dinghies and skiffs

    I'm afraid I am less than convinced by any of those posted curves. They all look as if they are based on rather simplistic VPPs Julian's crumpets would be safe from them I think. I don't think they have had an awful lot of checking against real world data. But it is interesting getting GPS action replay and the like to do the sort of plots Julian has posted for us. I've found my perception of speed on different points of sailing doesn't match actual speed nearly as well as I would have thought. ----------------------------------- Going back to plots for less extreme boats, what you tend to see is an apple shape. The greatest speed is not that far below a beam reach, and reduces steadily but slightly as you go lower. A *really* simplistic VPP that utterly ignores drag looks like below. You get more and more speed as you get to maximum apparent wind, which i this case is 20-25 degrees off a beam reach, and then the speed drops away drastically. Now the major point of this is that although the max vmg is at the lowest point on the graph, There's actually quite a wide range where the speeds are fairly similar - say 155-135 on this wholly theoretical and quite useless-in-real-life plot, and across that range speed is diminishing drastically as you go deeper, but the shorter distance sailed makes up for it. In UK parlance this is called soaking, and its a question of working out the best speed and direction at any instant, quite possibly with the crew or helm stuck in the middle of the boat. This theoretical plot is for a single or two sail boat, but the same principles apply for a slowish asymettric or a spinnaker boat, although there would be a speed lobe for the spinnaker, which at the shy end is flat because the kite is oversheeted and won't deliver much net power. Where it gets really irritating is on the very slow asymettric boats, where the speed lobe from the asymettric is actually off to one side, and you get better vmg on deep legs by taking the kite down and sailing two sail, although even then it usually pays not to sail an exact 180 degree run. Of course given a light enough wind it pays to take the kite down on runs on just about any boat, but outside Brit ponds I suspect few actually go out in conditions so light a kite will only fill on a beam reach... A pole kite theoretical, and practically will have a much wider speed lobe at the deep end. But even then it will usually be better to sail an angle of some sort, the individual class and weather will depend weather that 170 degrees or 135...
  15. VPP for dinghies and skiffs

    Where it gets interesting is a boat without such an extreme spike as say a 49er. I may have a go at drawing something up tomorrow.