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Everything posted by JimC

  1. You know it occurs to me that we might have a big shakeup in the way one design dinghies are handled in the future. The thing that might kick it off is the monopoly investigations into the Laser et al. At the moment, it seems to me that we have two basic approaches to one design, which one might call measurement led and builder led. -- Measurement led is the class association dominated model, where a relatively simple set of rules are defined on paper to a greater or lesser extent, and any boat that complies with those measurements is basically OK. Building may be open to anyone, or it may be open only to authorised builders, but the principle remains the same. The IP is generally owned by the Class Association, the designer or both. The big advantage is generally seen as competition between builders. The big disadvantage is that builders compete on performance, not price, and so the costs can escalate unbelievably. Europe Olympic masts being a case in point. Another disadvantage is that there is a tendency for classes to be dominated by the "best" builder who may attain near monopoly status. --- Builder led classes are dominated by a builder or consortium/cartel of builders, who typically specify manufacturing tolerances that are not publicly available. To comply with the rules the boat and components must have been manufactured by an authorised builder in accordance with a builders manual, and any measurement is simply to attempt to detect cheating. The big advantage is generally seem as much less variation between boats. The big disadvantage is generally seen as lack of competition between builders, and perceived poor value for money. The one thing that is common across both models is that there is never competition on price within a class. Competition on price is between classes. Another major disadvantage is that it is definitively a monopoly supplier situation. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now we have seen increasing dissatisfaction with monopoly supplier situations from the smaller nations in past ISAF minutes, and now we also have legislative pressure against monopoly supply, resulting in ISAf having to look at classes in that respect. We have also seen, with Laser Performance, problems caused when the cartel of builders fall out or the builders aims no longer coincide with the Class Association. Should we be looking for a new model? At the Women's trials that led to the 49erXX one of the options, the Arup Skiff, proposed a concept based on modern ISO9000 manufacture, where multiple builders would be permitted, but there would be very tight controls on manufacture, instead of a measurement based approach, so that components would be as identical as possible. This is exactly the sort of process that is used in industry widely, and also the sort of controls that are necessary if a monopoly builder buys in components from sub contractors. At the time it was rejected as being impractical, but my experience in the high tech industries is that legislative pressure has a wonderful habit of making the impractical practical. I wonder if something like this could be an idea whose time might come? Ask Question Print Page Email Page
  2. JimC

    The Future of One Design

    I've seen a lot through ISAF minutes, yes. I submit the major SMODs are predominantly from english speaking first world nations. The rest of the world also has plenty of fine boatbuilding companies, but they don't get a look in. But its hardly likely those of us who do live in Aus/USA/NZ/GBR will see much of a problem.
  3. JimC

    Future Olympic lightweight-female dinghy

    No reason why the Europe rules shouldn't get shaken up if the need is there. Actually there's a separate topic there...
  4. JimC

    World Sailing Vote ... Proposal M36

    No idea why the current version of the IOC is so keen on mixed events when not too many years ago they were very anti. One thing though, saying to the IOC "your requirements are BS and we're going to ignore them" might not end well.
  5. JimC

    World Sailing Vote ... Proposal M36

    The extent of the sky falling headless chickening on this amazes me... Its only a damn format change for the games, its not even going to affect the average sailor... It comes over loud and clear (and little else does) from the IOC documentation that they wanted more mixed events. So, this is what they wanted. yes, its a new format to sailing, but so were all male events, all female events and compulsory mixed events. We never had those before and largely still don't out of the games. If you look round sport in general there are a good number of events where separate individual performances add up to a combined score, both with the same individual in different formats, different individuals in the same format and even different individuals in different formats (swimming medley relay for an example of the last). Its not as if this is totally out on a limb and utterly different from anything else out there. As for some of the more extreme comments, I suppose they might schedule starts on two different courses, but bearing in mind all Olympic racing shares courses at the moment its really pretty unlikely isn't it! I would hope that over the next few months a whole bunch of varied formats get tried out to see what works. A relay might be fun, combined corrected times rather than points scores would give the opportunity for a really stellar performance by one half of the team to make up for a lack luster one by the other, points for the team could be added up before or after discards are applied... Then do we race them off the same start, different starts or what. What about tactics? If both boats are on the same course are both members of one team allowed to combine together to sail a boat from the other team right to the back of the fleet? In which case does the other boat come back to help? To be honest I doubt if the average IOC member can really tell the difference between a 470 and a 49er or even cares... Big changes in event format rather than equipment may well be what they've been agitating for. Who knows: I'm not a party to those smoke filled rooms. But for small nations I bet a change in format is a lot more palatable than throwing out all the boats and starting again. But calm down dears, its only the Olympics. It doesn't affect most of us!
  6. JimC

    World Sailing Vote ... Proposal M36

    But they haven't. They've always been different for men and womens fleets. Reason is that in a weight sensitive boat that's scored on finishing places its better to be on the fleet average (mode, not mean if you want to be picky) than it is to be some optimal weight. Seems counter intuitive, but if you sit down with a scoring program and model a series where weight is the only differentiator you'll find that's how it pans out.
  7. JimC

    by the numbers

    These mast aft rigs with A frames/bipods come up quite regularly. The usual cause is a little knowledge of aerodynamics, but not enough. read this and weep... https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/aftmast-rigs.623/
  8. JimC

    9 yrs and no more attempts??

    Its worth adding the rider that it must also make use of the difference in velocity between the surface it rests on or in and air moving relatively to it. A glider, for example, doesn't do that, it uses gravity and air. So water and air, land and air, ice and air its all about using lift devices to extract energy from the difference in velocity of the two media.
  9. JimC

    World Sailing Vote ... Proposal M36

    Is there any such thing as a mixed team 2 person kiteboard anywhere? [Seems there is, but mainly as a vehicle for training or middle aged men to get their [hopes] up...]
  10. JimC

    Olympic classes support in the USA

    Most might be a bit of a stretch. Certainly the vast majority *of those who do major events* like nationals, regional championships and the like, but IME that's only a small percentage of active dinghy sailors. Certainly at clubs I'm a member of I see only a small minority who get regularly pack the boat up, put it on a trailer and travel. The big difference, I suppose, is the quality of facilities. The venues like Weymouth, Pwhelli, Hayling et al provide space and comfort on a scale unknown before the big grants and sponsorship came along. Is the snowflake generation prepared to rough it with minimal facilities in the way we did?
  11. Actually it quite possibly would be. Go look at the ISAF class annual reports to see which classes are built in most numbers and sailed in the most countries.
  12. JimC

    Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    That's very carefully worded - as I suppose is inevitable. Be interesting to see what happens to/on the ISCO website.
  13. Forum masturbation. If no-one else will play with you you can have a flame war with yourself.
  14. Just ignore it. Its some crap some sad newbies thought up relatively recently. Its a dichotomy in SA. In some topics you'll find some of the smartest most knowledgeable people in the sport who you can learn immense amounts from, but in other topics you'll see some of the saddest misogynist f*****s that ever put someone off a sport...
  15. A pretty good clue is on http://www.rssailing.org/, where they list their supported class associations. My guess is that if they haven't set up a CA for a type they probably don't see it as a significant class racer.
  16. JimC

    Turbo Opti

    Thing is that's 1500 straight down the pan. What's the exchange cost for Oppie -> intermediate boat? Especially as hopefully you end up with something designed for the job, not a half ass cobbled together lashup.
  17. JimC

    Square heads

    They can also do stuff with "lateral" bend we an only dream of...
  18. JimC

    Square heads

    Julian, do you think there's any difference in the way the sails depower and blade off? My guess is that what we want, ideally, is a sail where anything up to the top third of the sail will flatten off and blade out as the gust hits, but the leach of the rest of the sail will stand up so that pointing etc is unaffected. Full battens help with this of course, but in my experience the lower leech still sags to an extent. In your experience does the way the sail depowers change, and how would you think this affects usability? The other thing that puzzles me is how the current fashion in the UK for square head sails with short battens on singlehanders works, I don't pretend to understand those at all.
  19. JimC

    Remove DSQ boat from race?

    Scarcely a problem these days when so many use IT scoring programs that recalculate after every race as a matter of course. With most systems it would be considerably harder *not* to recalculate the DNCs.
  20. JimC

    Square heads

    My imaginary dream IC rig had a level deck back to the front of the sliding seat and both jib and the front part of the main deck sweeping. Unfortunately I couldn't figure out a way to implement it without hideous compromises in other areas that killed more than was cured.
  21. JimC

    Square heads

    I always felt the Park Lane boom was a bit small to get much benefit in proportion to the sail. Julian's comment about pressure differential is interesting. Its a concept I've never thought much about, but it makes complete sense that different boats vary. The question is why, and also how much do sloop rigs change things. There must be significant differences between a sloop rig where the foredeck endplates, one where the foredeck is a bit more open and the worst case, the catamarans. I wonder if Cat folks are considering whether their chute/snuffer things have potential for endplating jibs. The other thing I'd be interested to hear opinions on are the weight tradeoffs. When you look at those extreme 18 rigs it seems to me that you've got big heavy battens and stiffer and thus heavier mast up where it does most harm. Are the numbers likely to be significant? Trouble is the 18 rigs are now as rule influenced as anything on the planet, there aren't many pure design rigs left - if indeed there can be such a thing. It would be interesting if someone could figure out a way of closing the deck gap that could be opened out for manouvers/handling. After all there are classes where the one design sail no longer fits the boat due to increasing mast rake, so they have to release the kicker to tack, so presumably releasing something else to tack would be feasible...
  22. JimC

    Square heads

    My understanding is that the big challenge is the need for it to operate on either tack. These things have pros and cons, but you'll notice they are all asymmetrical. a sailboat rig needs to be symmetrical, so there has to be an almost useless drag creating plate on the wrong side as well as the useful one on the right side. Then when you add to that that most classes will require them to be measured in as sail area and factor in the effects of twist then it seems to me it will take someone very clever indeed to make it work. In addition there's much lower hanging fruit at the other end of the sail which is commonly an aero disaster area. Even that's subject to tradeoffs. Convinced about FBs evaluation of the "cuff" at the bottom of the 49er sail, I made a detachable one for the bottom of my IC rig to clean up that area and get the aero interactions. It lasted about two races. It meant that I couldn't see the jib clew, which in turn completely psyched me out about jib settings and trim, which I regard as crucial. It so distracted me from the task of sailing the boat better that it seemed to me it was doing more harm than good to my race performance. Probably that could have been addressed somehow, but I never managed to get round to doing it. Of course we're now seeing a lot of attention to that area on Moths, and previously on the Cs.
  23. JimC

    Youth evolution in sailing

    No, their parents do...
  24. JimC

    Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Its gone awfully quiet... Have they managed to patch things up?
  25. JimC

    FP Lawyer up bro

    So, were the protest committee all lawyered up and everything or was it only Mr Witt? In other words did he choose to bring a gun to a handbag fight? I suppose we've all got the right to spend $40,000 in paying lawyers to attend every misconduct hearing we might be involved in if we so desire, and it would probably be wrong to prohibit it.