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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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Everything posted by JimC

  1. you make the call

    This is why a spreader mark is a good idea. It means the starboard boat is established on her course before she gets to the port tack lay line, so there is no problem with the port tack boats being unable to keep clear.
  2. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Was it? Where? As far as I know all we have seen is this document https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-november-22-2017 which specifically says " Below are several quotes from the letter" That is most definitely NOT in its entirety. The information you have posted about contract length an cancellation seems feasible, but again has not been posted on the Sunfish web site. If you are from the Sunfish CA, and wish to avoid the suspicion that you are being as economical with the truth as LP are, then you need to either post things in full or else explain what communications have been redacted and give good reasons why. You appear to have joined just to make that post, provided nothing to identify you or anything else. Why should we not assume that you are just a fantasist making up all you have said? Goodness knows the world is full of them.
  3. Aft mainsheet

    Basically the lift in the sails is also pushing the rig away from the wind, and the lift from the foils is pushing the foils towards the wind. The lever between the two causes the heeling force. The forces involved - lift from sails and foil, and righting moment from crew/hull opposing it must balance. Lift the board a bit and you have i) a shorter lever, so a bit less heeling force and ii)less board touching the water =less wetted area = less frictional drag. Its much more complicated than that due to other forms of drag, but that's a useful first pass.* easing the mainsheet doesn't really reduce drag**, but it does reduce the heeling force from the sail. On boats that reef sails reefing both shortens the leverage and reduces the force in the sail, so doubly effective. * the physics of sailing gets extremely complicated extremely quickly. Fortunately there are plenty of great sailors who only have a very rudimentary understanding of it, so don't get into it unless you think a combination of large quantities of maths , trigonometry, aerodynamics, hydrodynamics and basic physics sounds like an entertaining subject of study. ** typically drag increases, but that's a complication too far for now.
  4. Why don't more people race?

    yeah, but that's because the video is almost completely useless for trying to work out what was going on. Its taken from about the worst possible angle and the one of the boats is out of the picture for all the most important parts of the incident.
  5. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    The thing is Laser Performance do own the name Sunfish,the class sail symbol etc. AIUI the only thing they don't own is the ISCA name, and one of the mysteries is why they care.
  6. you make the call

    I suppose the real moral of this story is, "If you must set Windward/Leeward courses put a spreader mark down".
  7. you make the call

    Looking at he video again I'm interested in the other port boat port-in-the-collision was running in the wake of. On a PC I'd be wanting to talk to that boat and to quiz starboard about her course relative to that boat. Did starboard truncate her turn at the mark in order not to turn into port ahead, and then turn behind port ahead's transom, suddenly appearing to port from behind the other boat?
  8. Olympic Classes for Paris 2024

    Yeah, I think there would have to be a question mark about the financial viability of some of the big venues if the tap was turned off. I'm sure the Olympic side and the related youth stuff must provide a lot of regular income to the big venues like Weymouth/Portland, Pwllhelli and even HISC. Likely we'd lose at least some of those venues. But we didn't have any of that in the 60s and 70s and managed to run the sport well enough. Some of the medium and large clubs would probably benefit if WPNSA weren't creaming off a lot of the big Champs *provided* the volunteers were there. To my mind it would be awkward if we lost those venues, but not disastrous. But I'm not a fan of the big facilities, others may think diferently.
  9. Huh? New Sunfish Class?

    Actually I don't altogether believe either side. The ISCA press releases appear to be quoting WS very selectively, and I think they are trying to spin to their members that WS are supporting them much more vigorously than is really the case. LP are probably telling the truth when they say there is much more in the World Sailing letter than ISCA are saying, but I bet there is also stuff in there that LP don't like much either. I don't, for example, believe the statement "World Sailing will not recognise ISCO" is precisely true. If the situation came about that ISCA collapsed and represented no-one, and ISCO genuinely represented the Sunfish sailing community, I don't doubt WS would have little choice but to recognise ISCO as the Sunfish Class Association. The most disturbing part about the whole Laser mess, to my mind, was that the majority of the Laser Assn execs appeared to be firmly on the side of LP and not telling their members the whole story. In this situation the Sunfish Assn execs may be opposed to LP, but appear equally guilty of telling only half the story. I don't think its a coincidence that both the major battles in recent years involve LP, and I expect they kicked off the mess. I can see no reasonable justification for LP demanding that ISCA hand over their IP. But unless ISCA start to tell their members the whole story I will start to suspect that the argument is between the bad guys and the worse guys, not the good guys and the bad guys.
  10. you make the call

    In what rule is it relevant which boat sustains damage?
  11. you make the call

    I don't know how you guys can tell enough from that video how much both port and especially starboard changed direction. By the time you see starboard come into the frame its surely too late for port to keep clear. So if starboard had been sailing a straight course for some seconds before she comes into the frame then I'd say port is completely at fault. On the other hand if starboard comes into the frame just completing a sharp turn, and a few seconds before had been sailing way way above port, then starboard is looking at a share of the blame and RRS16 comes into play. How much the blame share would depend an awful lot on how much of a change of direction port made, and I can't really tell that from the video either.
  12. Aft mainsheet

    Its certainly Physics, but that's really not a good description of what's going on. A boat doesn't really slip sideways at all. It certainly does't drift sideways in the way you describe. Well, not unless the foils are stalled out and doing nothing much. What has traditionally been called leeway, and thought of as a boat slipping sideways is really nothing of the sort. A conventional boat has a symmettrical lifting surface in the water, and because its symmetrical it must run at an angle of attack to the oncoming water to generate lift. This angle of attack means that the boat must sail with the waterflow at a slight angle to the centreline. No angle, no lift, no can sail. The amount of lift must balance the forces produced by the rig. so if you have a generous sized efficient foil the angle of attack is very small. If you reduce the foil size drastically a point is reached where the remaining foil has to start working very hard, and the angle of attack must be increased noticeably to generate the same lift. To maintain the same course through the water the bow must point closer to the wind than before. Superficially it seems as if the boat is now going sideways, but its not. If you could rotate the daggerboard relative to the hull you'd find you were on the same course as before. What does make a certain amount if difference is heeling moment. If you have say 3ft of daggerboard under the hull the lift averages out say 18inches below the hull. If you have 1ft of daggerboard then the the lift averages out 6 inches below the hull. So if the centre of lift from the sails is ten feet above the deck then the lever between sail lift and foil lift goes down to 10ft 6 from 11ft 6, which does make a bit of difference.
  13. Olympic Classes for Paris 2024

    Interesting. There are aspects of that which do not go down well with me at all. Clearly they are trying to avoid all the horse trading that traditionally goes on at the Nov conference when events are selected and usually things change at the last minute.
  14. Olympic Classes for Paris 2024

    But why should the rest of the world care that you seppos have *****ed up the sport in your own country with your emphasis on rich men, lead mines and college owned barges? Its all pretty comical, because back in the so called good days the sport was dominated by "amateur" US sailors subsidised out of your college system, and the rest of the world was at a huge disadvantage. In spite of the Pom/Aus dominance there are still medals to far more and more disparate countries than there ever used to be.
  15. What, the rich men deciding they don't like paying their taxes, and conning the poor people into fighting a war and getting killed in order to make them even richer? How history repeats itself!
  16. Actually we do. For historical reasons its held under International Canoe federation rules not IYRU/ISAF/WS/whatever they're called this year rules. Their rules are different, and if not enough different nationalities turn up we're not allowed to declare a world champion. The two authorities isn't a major problem for us because there's a well understood demarcation, but if it were put to any stress it would probably be a mess. At the moment ICF is pretty hands off because the sailors founded it and we don't give them any trouble so they worry about the paddlers, and ISAF is very hands off because we have nothing to do with them directly, just deal with the clubs. However if we were not Canoes, and were not affiliated to the Canoe federation, I imagine we would have a world of trouble if we wanted to call ourselves International and hold world championships. But Canoe sailing is a recognised discipline of the Canoe authorities, and has been since before what became the IYRU had any interest in small boats.
  17. Aft mainsheet

    It doesn't make a huge amount of difference either way. Some of the faster boats sail with the board down all the time as does, of course, every keelboat. I wouldn't worry about the subject IIWY. Daggerboards are lifted in strong winds more because the boat doesn't need so much foil in the water travelling fast, so lifting it makes it a fraction faster. If a daggerboard is too small the main effect are problems tacking and at low speed.
  18. We shall see. I have every confidence that a decision like this can have no end of thoroughly undesirable unintended consequences. It does, for instance, pull the rug right from under the feet of the Sunfish CA in their fight to prevent Laser Performance creating a puppet CA, since it seems the puppet organisation will now be allowed to call their event the Sunfish World Championships too, so we'll have two Sunfish Worlds.
  19. Misogyny in sailing?

    I well remember deciding I had better step in on a major flame war on an anonymous work forum and looking up (as I told senior management I couldn't do) exactly who the participants were in order to have a discreet word, and discovering to my (then) surprise that both sides of the flame war were being conducted by the same person. Nowadays I wouldn't be surprised...
  20. Prohibited events are very unusual (apart from Kite sailing where they've got **** fights between different organisations) I loathe world sailings no worlds unless you are an official Int class policy, but reluctantly concede its better than the sort of mess with competing world authorities like boxing. If this sticks it could be a gift for Rastregar in the Laser Performance attempted destruction of the Sunfish CA. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2017EligibilityCodeRegulation19-[21689].pdf
  21. I wouldn't go as far as to say they are redundant between each other. Each has valuable material that's unique to it. There is overlap because, well, there has to be unless you are writing volume 1, volume 2, volume 3. I'd say Fast Handling technique is the slim version with all the latest information, but because its the slim version its much more tightly focussed on technique and much less on the deep stuff. HP1 is the one with all the weather.
  22. If no boats are in the zone, RRS18 doesn't apply. I'm still not entirely clear what you are unsure about, or indeed what rights you are talking about. You enter the zone, RRS18 switches on, you leave the zone, it switches off unless there are other boats in the zone. If its a beat to windward and boats are on opposite tacks RRS18 doesn't apply. P/S always applies. Tacking in the zone doesn't make much difference. Are you thinking something on the lines of "boat tacking in the zone loses all rights? 't ain't so. Its just that if you do tack in the zone, and there's another boat that entered the zone on starboard, then you mustn't cause that boat to luff above close hauled, and if they gain an overlap inside you, even 6 inches from the mark, you must let them through.
  23. What rights are you talking about? Your part 1 rights (p/s etc) are the same in the zone or out, but part 3 ( eg mark rounding ) rules add restrictions and requirements.
  24. Misogyny in sailing?

    Imagine a sailing club bar where someone yells show us your GFS tits when you walk in, and there are random porn pics on the walls and scattered round the tables. Doesn't stop there being serious conversations with good people going on at some of the tables, but in general what sort of place is it?
  25. Misogyny in sailing?

    No its not, its just some crap a bunch of newbies made up. There was nothing like that on the real SA forum.