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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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Everything posted by JimC

  1. Its an interesting one. I was tangentially involved in an issue at another class that was having measurement problems, and a culture of not observing a similar provision had grown up in the class, and that seemed to me a factor in some of the problems they were having. There are pros and cons with having a 'no changes, authorised builder and no measurement' one design rule, and pros and cons with having a purely measurement based rule, but if a class has the first, but gets in the habit of behaving as if it were the second then trouble will often ensue I think. But then there are plenty of posts in this thread that illustrate perfectly how sailors have trouble appreciating the considerable distance between the two styles of rule.
  2. Its an ex Nicky Bethwaite Cherub mast.
  3. I'd be very suprised if you can't spring the diamonds out of the spreader ends. I do that on my 45 year old wooden Bethwaite wing mast.
  4. In the UK at least the time when beach cats were most popular was the 60s, so any grand change in relative popularity now seems unlikely.
  5. Only in the US I think.The ones with more limiting rules sets were historically called restricted classes, but development class has become a much more fashionable name.
  6. The drag bubble at the leading edge of the mainsail turns out to be largely a myth - see https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/209338/news/Ad_aerodynamics/index.htm That being the case almost everything written about the benefits of wing masts before, well certainly the 21stC is flawed, plus an awful lot afterwards. I haven't seen any work done on section shapes with latest generation theory. Its certainly a mistake to consider the mast and the sail separately: they comprise a single aerodynamic entity. So, yes, ideally you over rotate the mast, and no it doesn't upset the mainsail flow if you do it right.
  7. Didn't say that at all. Read it again. I am completely comfortable with all illegal boats being denied entry to every event. What I am saying is that there are circumstances where a crew might be completely ignorant of there being anything wrong with their boat, and suggesting that if you go handing out lifetime bans for a first offence in such circumstances that you would probably be reversed by CAS. Some recent CAS hearings are here. http://www.tas-cas.org/en/jurisprudence/recent-decisions.html to give you a flavour of how they operate.
  8. By definition all boats are legal as they leave the factory.
  9. It can though. This is based on a true story, but I've changed things and it should be unspottable. Please don't attempt. Fred buys a second hand boat from someone well known in a class' estate. Whilst working on boat finds a quite horrendous piece of cheating that cannot really be properly rectified. Calls up class measurer, long associated with class and buddy of Bill, the late boat builder. Measurer feels really bad for poor bastard stuck with useless piece of junk that can never measure properly, and also doesn't really want scandal in his beloved class, and besides old Bill is dead now, and what good can it do digging up a scandal? Says to Fred OK, supposing you do this and this, I'm sure the boat isn't going to be any quicker than one that is built properly. Next year dodgy boat, superbly sailed, is near the front at the Nationals. Different measurer takes a good look at it... Now consider a different and *completely imaginary* scenario (yes, completely imaginary, this isn't based on anything I've heard). Boss of 'best yard' (BBY) is a wonderful craftsman, but was never near the top of the class when it came to anything intellectual like reading or writing. Some years ago Cheating Bastard came to BBYs yard and said I want you to make these changes. BBY says "are you sure that's allowed"? CB puts his best used car salesman voice on and says, "of course, don't you trust me". CB wins big event with illegally modified boat. Next year two of CBs competititors come to BBY and say, we want you to modify our boats just like CBs. BBY says "I'm really not sure that's legal". Competitors say, "of course it is, especially as CBs boat went through measurement fine at the big event" (Although actually they just checked sails and weight). BBY says, "well, OK then", and does the work. Next year a few more follow, and by this stage BBY hasn't got the slightest doubt left. After all he's not that good with words, and haven't all these boats been through measurement?. Now Mr Zillionaire wants his son to race in an event opposite him. Buys boat, sends it to BBY with the simple instruction: do the best job you can on this, no expense, its for my son to race". Boat is modified illegally, like all the others. Zillionaires son and his mates step off the plane, and take the boat to the event, never having seen one before or having the slightest idea its been modded let alone illegally. Cheating Bastard isn't even at the event. Timber gives Zillionaires son and mates lifetime bans. Zillionaire takes Timber to CAS. How long do you reckon the hearing will last before the ban is overturned?
  10. Must be nice to live in a black and white world like that... I sailed with an illegal boat for several years, misread the rules and didn't trim a bulkhead enough so the foredeck was 2mm too high.
  11. That's kinda the point. If I read it correctly you're saying that all the boats that failed had a very similar illegally modified profile. It seems unlikely that all those owners specified the exact same illegal profile utterly independently. Then if papa was tweaking a boat for his son, you'd expect it to be the same spec as his own, that is presumably as optimised as he can get it. Instead as one passed and the other one didn't: they must have been pretty different. So I doubt papa supplied the yard with detailed drawings showing to the millimetre what changes he wanted made. I bet if one could find the true story of how these boats came to be illegally modified it would involve poor communication, misunderstanding, false assumptions and goodness knows what else as much as a desire to cheat. If the organisers wish to RRS69 people, they'd need to establish who gave what instructions, all the rest. Fairly recent AC history illustrates the difficulties in establishing who was responsible for deciding to cheat. Fortunately to exclude illegal boats from the event you don't need any of the history, you just need to demonstrate the boat fails measurement.
  12. Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues. Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale.
  13. Imaginary conversation... > I want the keel done the same way as xxx >> OK, there you are that will be n euros > the Jury said its illegal at the worlds >> Never said it wasn't. You said same as xxx > Did xxx ask for an illegal keel? >> xxx only races under measurement handicaps, its not illegal in that situation > you never said it was illegal for one design events >> you never asked or specified. Didn't you know?
  14. It would be interesting to see the measurer's report on what they found to cause them to exclude the boats. Especially interesting to know why, if keel modifications are as widespread in the fleet as some posters have suggested, only 7 boats have been excluded.
  15. That's a lot of load to somewhere that wasn't really designed for it, and on a rather old boat. Its not an option I would ever take. It should be a quick enough job to rerig the jib halyard to the highfield in the way I indicated. Might have to watch chafe if you use rope though. All the main halyard really needs is a cleat on the side of the mast.
  16. If the class rules didn't prohibit refairing it wouldn't be cheating. But these ones do.
  17. A misinterpretation of the rules by the measurers would certainly be grounds for redress against exclusion.
  18. GBR910 appears to be a predominantly Italian crewed boat too.
  19. FWIW the 505 has a particularly loose set of measurements by one design standards, it is much closer to a box rule than most. Very unusually the rules were framed to permit moderate variation in shape rather than simply being intended as build tolerances.
  20. The original jib halyard would have been wire, set up with a long (4 or 6 inches most like) soft wire loop at the mast end, and then a rope tail. You pull on the rope tail through the block on the bottom to haul the jib up, and then the wire ends up adjacent to the hook of the highfield, and is just pulled out from the mast, hooked on the end of the highfield and then tensioned. That way the jib halyard loads don't go on the block at the bottom of the mast. You could replicate the same setup using a high tech rope instead of the wire. The tail has no significant load and can be anything. I usually use 3 strand because its easiest to splice!
  21. Yeah, and learned that the measurement route winds up (at elite level) in ridiculous amounts of tweaking and tuning and expense. Most notoriously the Europe masts that were sanded down on the inside to achieve optimum bend because the outside surface was controlled. That is why no-one has introduced a new measurement based dinghy class in decades, they have pretty much all gone down the as supplied, no alterations only repairs route.
  22. I did this, and its going staggeringly well. Link on the forum or on FB. It has just occurred to me that I missed one significant detail - whether the mast is stepped on a stump, with the gooseneck on the stump, on the deck or even on the floor. If folk could go back and see if there are any new fields that they can fill in it would be great.
  23. Dear Worlds Competitors and Boatbuilders, It would be awfully good to have a tech listing of boats at the worlds, or at least top ten or 20, to go on the int website. I'd like design, designer, builder and Hull construction, mast maker and model if poss, sailmaker and foil builders. ACs and Taifun too please. For anyone who is really keen, and feels like posting dimensions for the benefit of prospective builders and designers then mast face distance from the bow, and furthest forward and furthest back seat position are probably the most important, followed by, if you can manage it, the distance from bow or stern to max chine beam/waterline beam, plus the beam at that point if its more than minimum. Message me here, post on the http://www.intcanoe.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1886&sid=d520a7f600411133c8bb5e3a0a8a9fc9 forum, or Facebook, message me with any one of those or use the message webmaster link on any of the class pages, it will all reach me. thanks, Jim C
  24. As there is no zone at an obstruction if the overlap is broken the right to room goes too, but similarly if the overlap is re-established then the rights immediately come back, no matter how close to the obstruction. (with a slight caveat to 19.2b).
  25. In my opinion, and I've spent some time considering this for our club racing, there is no optimum. Any course you can set will suit some boats and not others, and the wind conditions will vastly influence this. For whatever my opinion is worth the best option is to mix up course types, reach angles all the rest of it as much as possible, with the emphasis on providing courses that are just plain fun to sail. UK Portsmouth numbers are, after all, calculated from all the different courses that different clubs round the country use, so there's a sound argument that mixing it up with all sorts of different courses will best reflect the data the handicaps are calculated from.