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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

matttnz

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About matttnz

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  • Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
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    VOR
  1. Team Vestas grounded

    The ruddy thing also dumped 220T on fuel oil and when I was down at Waihi last week, there's still those ruddy little bits of packing plastic all over the beach and a large hunk of rusting iron on the Astrolabe. Kiwis by & large don't take kindly to that sort of thing, espl for the sake of shaving a profit margin. There's also the little issue of altering the nav records after the fact (erasing the pencil records on the paper chart), if they hadn't done that they might not have found themselves spending so much time at her majesty's pleasure... Compared w admitting instantly what they had done (whilst on the rock to allow the VOR to be secure in the functionality of the boats still out racing) and as soon as everyone was safe, taking the toxics off/now planning to salvage the (worthless) wreck. jzk-the reason the human factors brigade are steadfastly disagreeing with you is the tenet there is "no blame" so that people don't hide the evidence/change the chart and speak up and admit their cock ups. Allows figuring out what happened and preventing it happening again a lot easier. It doesn't necessarily mean group hugs and "there, there, it's not your fault", this whole situation was a cock up at the end of the day. Remember-it's originated from an industry where a cock up means you die w the aircraft (which is a pretty strong disincentive to most people), yet pilots were still putting planes into the ground so obviously punishment doesn't fix this problem.
  2. Team Vestas grounded

    I've disagreed with most everything you've said on this thread-but this shit was funny. Glad to see the thread has finally shifted toward (mostly) human factors. Though we are presently starved of information... Nice
  3. Team Vestas grounded

    I give up. You got me
  4. Team Vestas grounded

    waste of money to be honest. It is pretty clear what happen, isn't it? Not really. They ended up on the bricks...yes: blindingly obvious. A human cock up:yep Why a bunch of talented, respected sailors did so? Not so clear & worth a look.
  5. Team Vestas grounded

    All the,,, commas are telling here If you get a good price you're shouting the pints.
  6. Team Vestas grounded

    From the interview he seemed to have a grasp of human factors. It was good to hear. Wouter had retweeted well before he took the FB post down. Ah, interesting. I hadn't realized that. So leaving the tweet up might just have been an oversight, rather than an intentional act of routing around the deletion of the FB post. Or he just might not have cared either way. On the scale of things he's dealing with, I'm guessing it's pretty far down the list. The twitter feed is most likely automated. Not sure if recovering tweets is high up his priority list. It might have been legal advice I suppose, lawyers have a different impact on the whole human factors/root cause analysis thing. Or might have been VOR asking to hold off on falling on swords pending a full root cause anaylsis. Or maybe he saw/was made aware of people on this thread interpreting it as him blaming the software (though I expect wading through this is the last thing he wants to do right now). Irrelevant really at the end of the day. As someone said: what goes onto the internet... Over reliance on technology is part of it. As is, at times, mistrust of new tech by luddites (is anyone going to dispute GPS is an advance on dead reckoning? Or airbags/seatbelts in cars?) Instead of throwing the new tech out, we need to adapt/modify it to reduce the chance of this repeating. In some ways this is already happening. Grounding a VOR by such a well regarded team and in such a public way has probably done more to emphasise these zoom traps to the sailing fraternity than any education process could have.
  7. Team Vestas grounded

    Wouter had retweeted well before he took the FB post down.
  8. Team Vestas grounded

    That's one of the holes in the filters designed to catch problems. Specifically: You have an electronic mapping system where detail is lost in a stepwise fashion with zooming. Just 1 more zoom would have identified this problem, but it wasn't used in this case (for reasons xyz) and so the error continues to the next filter that usually catches it; but once again missed & continues. Swiss cheese model. That's my point exactly. People are going to make mistakes, regardless of the level of training or experience. It is going to happen. I don't think that it's too much to ask the chart plotter designers to consider changes that would help minimize the inevitable human mistakes. So due to human error, fatigue, ineptitude or whatever you want to call it, it is possible that forgetting to zoom in can cause dangerous accidents? Well since you can't fix the human to make him perfect then let's design some sort of system that doesn't make you have to remember to zoom in in order to provide critical data. I'm not saying the current designs are faulty or inherently dangerous. I'm not even saying that the zoom issue "caused" the accident. A human error caused the accident due to a failure to utilize technology properly. So let's change the technology to make it a little more fool proof. Yes! And then fix the other issues/the issues caused by the new fix, etc etc. Constant refinement.
  9. Team Vestas grounded

    That's one of the holes in the filters designed to catch problems. Specifically: You have an electronic mapping system where detail is lost in a stepwise fashion with zooming. Just 1 more zoom would have identified this problem, but it wasn't used in this case (for reasons xyz) and so the error continues to the next filter that usually catches it; but once again missed & continues. Swiss cheese model.
  10. Team Vestas grounded

    "Systems failure" isn't just whether technology failed, in fact usually quite the opposite. I wonder if this is part of why there's lines drawn on this thread. It's often a case of: "these guys had all the technology working, but yet they still did x/ignored alarms/missed y (i.e. f'd up). How can we address the system they work in (and that includes changing the work culture/environment) to prevent human factors from f'n it up again" In my area we are taught to trust our alarms and question/make sure they are lying to you before you dismiss them. Literaly told to "trust your equipment" but understand the situations where it can sabotage you. Human factors research and design accepts that humans are fallible. Design the system (technology is only a fraction of this, it's the watch changes/navigator roles, etc) to catch the human failures in time. What Nico's done in encouraging the recording is a) make this interesting for us and ensure a ROI for Volvo and his sponsors & salvage as much information to figure out why this has happened. It's obvious from early on in the vid that he was comfortable with the depth change and that it was expected (just as much that later the impact was not!). BCs initial thought might have been in his role of OBI but he's preserved a ton of info about timing etc so that if those laptops are toast some data can be salvaged.
  11. Team Vestas grounded

    Though I can see the irony that he has this on his homepage...
  12. Team Vestas grounded

    Expect he's seen it. Didn't take long to make it onto Wouter's twitter feed which is how I came across it.
  13. Team Vestas grounded

    I'm assuming this is yours Clean. Good on ya mate.
  14. Team Vestas grounded

    Absolutely we do. And the fix is not to throw the years of training away & ruin someone's career (though to be fair the pilots' tend to be caught up in the "bad outcomes"...there's a pretty good incentive for them to get things correct every time-though problems still occur...they can't all have a death wish). This is a systems issue. Everyone, no matter how good & talented they are make mistakes. Those of you who think otherwise or that it will never happen to them are delusional. A good system catches these mistakes before the bad outcomes. Here the system worked x2 (in daylight) & failed x1 in this instance (at night). For my part I am impressed with Nico & Wouter's admission of failures. Wouter for admitting fault in his navigation and Nico for acceptance of responsibility as skipper. Too frequently we see people scattering and laying blame in an a attempt to CYA. A good system embraces disclosure to get to the bottom of why it slips through. Why it happens is always the same: humans are involved. Humans are fallible-no matter how talented they are. + another 1 All you guys willing to single out people for failure and lynch them from the nearest spreader really just have no idea about true crisis management. I sincerely hope you never are in charge.
  15. Team Vestas grounded

    Couple more random thoughts: Re: poor prep of new territory etc... I seem to recall a video on one of the Inside Tracks or suchlike of a Vestas team member saying they were time pressured trying to get everything ready in time for the start. Perhaps they in fact didn't pre-prepare well enough? A casualty of a lesser funded team & less shore based numbers? Just postulating. I also recall mention that Wouter has his own software written for navigation/route selection that is designed to exclude random routes or suchlike. I wonder if the use of this contributed? The way other teams stated this was easy to do suggests not though. Considering some ex-Telefonica Blue team members are going around this time, we haven't heard much from Bekking or SiFi about this. Wasn't Nico also on Movistar?