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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  


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  1. Read from the top. I've already had this discussion with Brass.. Edit: oh... looks like that's been covered
  2. ok but I'm trying to get some clarity in my understanding. I read that as you have have to sail from point X to some point Y "close to and on the required side of, the mark" and that you would otherwise have to justify any deviations away from that course if you were to claim that you weren't given room to sail to the mark You can't head to a point on the other side of that mark, and you can't sail unreasonably wide of that point. correct? if that is correct, then how is that not directly?
  3. No, but Case 118 does Case 118—In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space tosail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark.
  4. I don't think it's that simple. If you get an overlap inside the zone, and become right of way boat, the non-right of way boat can only use the room they are entitled to, and must otherwise comply with part 2. it has been discussed elsewhere extensively, you do not become a right of way boat by being granted mark-room, but you are entitled to that mark-room and can be exonerated if mark-room is not given. As Brass said (emphasis mine) The emphasis is mine because I would think in most cases there would be a fine line either way and hence don't be on the end of either stick. Don't do something unreasonable inside the zone. Don't assume you have carte blanche to act as you please inside the zone. Try not to be on the receiving end of it.
  5. you answered basically with above and the case law. one is where a right of way boat, required to give mark-room believes she is giving it and the entitled boat maneuvers in a way where the right of way is unable to continue providing room. Predominantly inside the zone but before the rounding. There can be a lot going on at bouy roundings and you have a reasonable expectation other boats will be have in a certain way. If the other boat decides to do something different all of a sudden (like the S Bend example above) and you're not able to respond quickly enough to avoid contact. but you covered that with case 118, appeal 20, and rule 14 I think the confusion I have a little is where a clear astern boat becomes overlapped inside due to the actions of the clear ahead / outside boat. The cases don't seem to talk about where the overlap is established in the zone. I guess from all this, I read it as even inside the zone, the entitled boat must still comply with all the bits of part 2, but is granted room to sail directly to, and to round the mark on the required side "promptly and in a seamanlike manner" . She can maneuver to close the door prior to the mark as long as she doesn't infringe part 2. once she has begun her maneuver to actually round the mark, she can do so as fast and hard as she likes including jamming up above proper course, until her stern has cleared the mark. Essentially, If at any stage an entitled boat either is heading to the non required side of the mark, away from the mark, or her stern has cleared the mark, then she must ensure she complies with all of part 2 or somehow justify it as legitimate room given the conditions. That is the exemption to part two only exists during the actual rounding if and only if she sailing a reasonable course around the mark given the conditions, and prior if she is likewise sailing a reasonably direct course to the required side of the mark.
  6. Roger that... So when is it deemed "having given Mark-room" has ended? is it the moment the entitled boat is on proper course and past the mark? on 21: you are exonerated if you are sailing within the mark-room you are entitled. mark-room includes the definition of room which is prompt and seamanlike, not to act like a crazy man. Are there cases which show the limitations on mark-room for the entitled? The scary proposition here is the lost of rule 16 through 21. It can go from "I'm giving you room..." to "w.tf!" very quickly. I've had a previous scenario. #OB is above #CA by a couple of boat lengths and says "no room" to which #CA goes fine, there's plenty of room and sails directly to the mark assuming #OB does likewise. #OB promptly does an S bend manoeuvre and the aft main sheet drags in the water and just nicks the bow as #OB turns hard in a way #CA is unable to respond. with the extra room #OB sailed and the manoeuvre #CA is now inside overlapped. #OB claims #CA didn't give room to sail to the mark. #CA claims they gave plenty of room for #OB to sail *TO* the mark but #OB chose to try and close the door. 21 would suggest #OB has carte blanche to do as they please and if #CA is unable to respond, then bad luck? or does the definition of mark-room and room place reasonable limitations on that?
  7. So I poked my nose in where it didn't belong tonight. Circle time and that was the end of it. but... The manoeuvre is a fairly text book fleet racing one. Find yourself at the ugly end of a multi boat pile up at the bottom mark. Slow down, drop back, hug the stern of the inside boat as the outside boats push wide and cut in early. In this case boat #1 whipped through quicker than I was expecting, #2 & #3 were slower than I was expecting and the big hole that was there became a not quite so big a hole as #2 tried to close the door. No paint was traded, literally #2 just had to pulled back a little. Like I said, text book fleet racing manoeuvre, I just got it a little wrong. Before you go all "you had not rights" on my ass, it's perfectly legal to take room if it's given. If someone pushes wide and you can nip up the inside without fouling them, then good for you. In this case #3 was pretty vocal, and even if I hadn't fouled #2, I would have easily nipped up inside #3. My actions did not change the course #3 had to sail due the room he had to give to #2 and #1. In my mental debrief afterwards, apart from thinking about how and if I could have pulled it off, but 2 things 1) Mark room is all about giving room to sail to the the mark if the proper course is to sail close to it and room to round the mark to sail the course. Proper course is the fastest course in the absence of other boats. on a windward that's generally close hauled. So at a bottom mark, a boat entitled to mark room that pushes wide, are they allowed to close the door by sailing above close hauled? That is to say, a boat clear astern has to give a boat clear ahead room to sail her proper course around the mark. above close hauled is not proper course. in the same breath, windward boat must keep clear, and the leeward boat can not change course without giving the windward boat room to keep clear. So I guess my interpretation of all that is if you push wide, you can sail to close hauled, but if someone can nip inside without fouling you or the mark then you're shit out of luck. You can't pinch up to close the door because you're only entitled to room to sail your proper course and if you do, you have to show you gave him opportunity to keep clear. Until at least you clear the mark then you can luff him. 2) outside boat #3 gets all hot and the collar and takes the clear astern guy to the room, even though clear astern guy did not foul #3 in any way but arguably may have fouled #2. #2 would have had to push wide regardless to give #1 room. Does the protest room make a judgement about whether there was any foul between any boat in the incident and make a ruling, or does it find that there was no foul between #3 and #clearAstern guy listed in the protest form prior to the start of the hearing (notice my choice of words), and toss it? does any of that make any sense?
  8. Anyone used Kiwigrip and removed it?

    Acetone. Pour on, Remove said kiwi grip with a cloth. Even old stuff.... don't ask me how I know.
  9. THIEVES!!! junior Regatta night shoppers

    *blink* I would suggest you will want to have proof of such a claim, retract, or delete this post before you find yourself in hot water yourself.
  10. 11 Metre One Design

    If the wrap has lasted this long, that is a testament to 3m vinyl wraps. That was put on in 2003
  11. 11 Metre One Design

    Simon caused a few debates with that wrap. I think he had a mate from 3m or something. Least of which, 11m class rules from memory required paint and antifoul. Simon's argument was the paint and antifoul was still there, just underneath the wrap.
  12. 11 Metre One Design

    I raced them OD for a couple of seasons. I seem to remember them being a little slower than a mumm on most points. I don't think the small jib is a too much of a problem. Surely any handicap will take that into consideration. I know some people have put overlapping jibs on as mod for handicap racing. We raced in the lumpy stuff occasionally and don't think they're better or worse than any other 30ish foot day boat. They track nicely up wind but with a narrow groove. They are roughly a 30foot boat. They sail upwind roughly like a 30foot boat. Unforgiving off the breeze in a blow. Again probably no worse than any other high performance boat with a big arse kite. As long as you have a helmsman and kite trim are on the same page. We never had a speedo so can't give actual numbers.
  13. Might even be a little further when you are roasting like a marshmallow on a stick
  14. I take it you haven't just asked him to take a shower every now and then?
  15. And I'm not sure if you understand what having a backup plan actually means. The mind knows not what the tongue wants. People are biased towards asking questions towards the solution they think it will be. Beyond the Dennis conner suggestion (which I've heard a few times over the last 20 years, and is in the north U smart book) your comments suggest that you have a number of starting challenges of which your original question is the least important. Start by saying we (as a team) botched the start and that we (as a team) need to come up with a better solution. Don't point fingers, you could be asking something completely unreasonable of someone. Maybe your bow got it right and you or your skipper botched it. Calling the distance to the line is not simple. If it were, mid line sags/bulges would be non existent. Even the best won't get it right every time. I'm quite sure that most people doing it are giving little more than a broad, perhaps educated if you're lucky, guesses. The $200 answer could be to go buy a gps I can say this with absolute confidence because if you had done all of the above, you would not have been on here asking the question you asked, in the way that you asked it. Getting back to the DC idea, the easiest way to get practice to call time/distance *as a team* is calling the gusts. The side benefit is it teaches your entire crew to sail with their heads out of the boat. DC's suggestions included timing the light post as you drive down the street.