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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Phil S

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  1. Moth decksweeper and lowered mast stumps

    The decksweeper rig is not 5.7m on the luff. The new rule says it can be no longer than 5.185m on the floor, which might stretch to 5.4 under extreme luff tension, but not likely to be more.
  2. Buying a moth

    I know the two in Aust and thats probably a reasonable price in A$. I once owned #3. But it will cost you $A1000 to $A1500 to get one to europe, if the owner has a box and is willing to send it. The UK or scandinavian moths might allow you to look before you buy.
  3. Buying a moth

    Find some locals with the type of boat you choose and buy something they recomend, then spend lots of time with them so they can teach you how to sail it, maintain it and improve it. You will have to be very lucky and find a generous seller to get a decent foiler of any type for that price. Expect to spend lots of time and money doing repairs and upgrades and you will still be unlikely to have something as good as if you had spent the extra money in your initial purchase.
  4. These boats will not be allowed to heal. The issue is that the roll axis is at such a huge angle to the centreline of the boat. From the rudder foil on the centreline to the leeward foil 5m out the side. About 30 degrees at a guess. If the boat rolls it will change the AoA of the foils, roll to leeward will increase the AoA by about half the roll angle, roll to windward will decrease it by the same. A few degrees of unwanted AoA change will send the boat crashing down or rising up and ventilating, followed by a crash. Changes in roll due to gusts or big waves will be disasterous. Other boats with foils out to leeward have not been as extreme, so the rate of AoA change is less, but even the ocean racing 60s show some of this tendency, also in part because they rely on the wide stern rather than a rudder foil. The Superfoilers have twin rudders so are not affected. If they are allowed I suspect the AC boats will end up with twin rudders as well.
  5. Foilers: brushing off seaweeds?

    800 grit w&d finish is for cold water, I think under 12deg C, but since I do not sail in cold water I am not sure. In warmer water 2000 grit w&d or polish is the go. No idea about McLube on foils, never heard of anyone trying it. wrt weed, the lake Macquarie problem: my plan is to sail a bit lower if there is weed about, this keeps the horizontal below the floating weed, and limits the weed accumulation to the verticals. It also allows me to clear the weed on the verticals by flying higher again and letting the wind blow it off. Other than that a slow tack will clear it, and I can do lots of slow tacks without even trying to.
  6. Moth decksweeper and lowered mast stumps

    Poor logic Erwan. A lot of reasonably clever people have been trying for many years to make faster moths or cheaper moths and other foiling boats which are not moths but are either cheaper or faster, and very few have been able to succeed with any of these objectives. There have been quite a few unsucessful moth designs and quite a few non moth designs which did not attract customers or which could not be built at marketable prices. So far it appears that only the Waszp and UFO have attracted enough buyers to gone into serious production. Both are aiming at the price market rather than the speed market. Building a moth style boat which out performs a quality moth at a cheaper price is a fantacy which no one has come close to realising. If you want to go faster for less money you need to learn how to kite sail a foil board. Maybe this proves simpler is better, and maybe thats why some of the bigger foilers are so disapointing in both cost and performance terms. If you want to sail something cheap but more conventional which still out performs almost most all other boats buy a well used moth. wrt to question which started this thread, the moth trend with rigs for several years has been to lower the CoE to reduce capsize moment. This has resulted in shorter leach lengths and hence lower aspect ratios. Higher aspect rigs can be built within the rules with longer leaches and longer masts, the 5.185m luff just needs to be higher up the mast. But the serious mothies have decided that the increased capsize moment is a negative to performance except in very light low riding conditions, when championship racing does not happen. There are presently again several experienced moth people developing new designs, some of which may make it into production if they perform well enough to attract buyers, and the builders can make them at a marketable price. Winning a championship increases the market price of course but that is getting very hard. Some interesting ideas are beig floated. We will see how they go over the next year or so.
  7. Square heads

    The masts are measured, the sails are not. Just getting max area from the legal mast height. The one big regatta has been getting later and later in ths season when the winds are lighter, and its always on Sydney Harbour where headlands and traffic make the winds even more variable, so everyone has been making the sails bigger and bigger to maximize performance for the JJs. When they get a big blow early in the season many crew struggle with the small rig as its bigger than they need in a solid 25kt NE or Southerly.
  8. I heard 3rd hand that there was some sort of start line incident which took out a large number of boats from both races.
  9. Amac is concentrating his business on WASZP growth. In Jan this year he told me he was selling only about one Mach2 a month and that was not viable for the factory, which is set up for continuous production. He did not bring SOS or the support workshop to our nationals as the Mach2 business no longer can afford it. His latest releases for Mach2 upgrades are production versions of the develpoments pre Malcesine, eg, decksweeper rig, macita type main foil. The market is changing, the Exocet WC domination has killed the new Mach2 market but since Exocet producion is slow, there are several other smaller builders now offering alternative boats or about to release them, mostly in the UK. Also there are some very fast new foils coming along as well, from other parts of the world. Some of this kit may appear this week, we will see what is at the front of the fleet. Regardless there are a huge number of very good moths out there which are all upgradable with newer foils and rigs. The class will be strong for a long time yet while people continue to put thoight and effort into continuous improvements.
  10. Are You Tougher Than Me?

    1. Hats off the Finn, OK and Laser sailors, truley machicists, so much effort and pain for so little reward. 2. Stay away from other sports, football injuries seem to make sailing seem gentle. 3. Sail within your ability. Stay safe and stay off the centreboad. A few capsizes or violent crashes makes recovery take an extra day. I am 68 next month and am enjoying moth racing more than ever now I have downgraded to a 11 year old boat with second generation rig and foils. Sailing has been my only sport for 55 years. My doctor says my aches and pains are arthritis and I should get used to them. Sailing regularly is the best anaesthetic.
  11. Bermuda was chosen by democratic class members vote against Argentina and Perth. The rock stars were all living there and sailng their moths on days off from AC work. They thought a local fleet was building. They also thought they would still be there after the AC but did not count on NZ winning and ruining their lives in paradise. I have no idea what sort of local fleet remains now all the AC teams have left. There had been a couple of local Bermuda regattas with a freight company sponsor who provided containers from UK and US. These were well attended and popular. Whoever promoted the Bermuda Worlds bid promised everyone the same free freight deal. None of the AC rock starts are on any class committees so I am not sure who the local moth reps were. Aust voted for Perth, Argentina voted for Argentina, and pretty well every other country voted for Bermuda, based on the promises. Some RBYC guys came to Malcesine and chatted to a few people, but made no comittments or promises. No-one attended our AGM and no plans were revealed. This is the tradional place to anounce dates and other details one year out. Subsequently what ever freight promises were made did not seem to materialise, certainly not for Aust. In fact after Malcesine the Aust members and its association exec got few responses from queries about freight, accommodation or anything else. The air fares from Aust are 3 times that to Europe The freight was 9 times freight to europe. There were still about 6 people talking of going at the end of 2017. By the end of our Nationals in Jan that was down to 3, and now it looks like 2 sailors and one boat going one way only, plus a couple of expats coming from elswhere. The year prior to Malcesine the worlds were in Japan. Japan has an active fleet and a well run class organisation. But attendance was poor, similar numbers to Bermuda. I think some Europeans wrongly feared a Tsunami or radiation polution. The Japanese ran an amazing regatta, they provided incredible support to all the sailors, doing things for us we never imagined, like bringing our trolleys to us on the ramp after lifting our boats out of the water. Thay made not big promises, we all paid our own ways to get there, but those who went will not miss the regatta the next time they are hosts. I am not sure about costs from Europe but Japan is not a lot cheaper than Europe when travelling from Aust, at least there is no jet lag. So small regattas do happen even in great venues. So its not the class which has a numbers issue, but Bermuda does have special issues with costs and pre regatta communication. We can only hope that this does not affect future moth worlds.
  12. My understanding is Goobs is going, Slingsby is not as he has sold his boat in Aust. Not sure about Matt Chew, maybe he has borrowed an Irish boat. He has been racing Superfoilers lately. The other two Aust names listed I do not know, Never been to a nationals, so must be expats living in Nth hemisphere. Goobs has sold his boat over there so he is only paying freight one way. Starting soon, hope the racing news makes it to Aust better than the regatta promotion material.
  13. Aust has its nationals within sailing season which in Sth hemisphere are split between calender years. 17/18 was at Wangi last January 18, 18/19 will be in Brisbane January 19, and 19/20 will be in Perth November 19 just before the worlds. Worlds are international so occur within calender years, sometimes like Belmont and Sorrento they are less than 6 month after the previous event, but this time it will be more line 18 months after Bermuda. Plenty of time for planning your trip.
  14. Owning a mach 2 is a big investment, (well it used to be before the exocet price made it look cheap). People buying a used mach2 usually assess what condition it is in and what upgrades it has had. Making changes to std Mach2 stuff risks the chance buyers will not be interested, unless you are a regatta winner, which at my age is most unlikely. I did make some foil horizontals, a rudder and the bowsprit, but booms, sail and trampolines or beyond me. Its really hard to make good, stiff and accurate foils without professional molds and ovens. Except a few minor faults I did not see before despatch, the buyer in Munich seems happy with it. The point i was trying to make is that moth racing is not just about beating the AC rock stars. There is a lot of fun competing at the lower levels and the price for boats below the rock star level are quite reassonable. When getting a boat from Aust to Bermuda and back costs more than the boat is worth, its obvious why there is minimal interest from my part of the world. Aust / Europe trip costs $1000 to $1500 each way, one quote for Aust / Bermuda was $9000 each way. The regatta was sold to the class two years ago with sponsor supported freight which never eventuated as far as this part of the world goes. Perth in November 2019 made no such promises but interest is already high. Expect big numbers again.
  15. The most affordable foiler is still a Prowler or a Bladerider, half the price of a Wazsp, but faster, lighter and a bigger fleet to race with. Most moth sailors race moths because every time you go sailing it is exciting. There are a few who think its a ticket to an AC contract, but most of these do not last long unless they are exceptional sailors, get the contract and still become addicted to moths anyway. It does not matter if you are good enough to race these guys or simply normal humans back in the fleet, we all have a great time. There are plenty of cheap moths about for exciting racing mid fleet. The relaitve poor turn out in Bermuda is not about the cost of the class but the cost of the venue. Too expensive for the low budget moth sailors who make up more than half the fleet.